Super Frank Thread

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

If Lampard is going to play the way he wants to play then we will have to play with a high defensive line because the team needs to press high as one, there cannot be gaps between the 4 defenders, 2 midfielders and 4 attackers because we'll get brutally exposed as the season wears on. I can accept there will be some teething problems and some chastening experiences against some of the big teams potentially this season but we cannot let lesser teams down the league start taking advantage too.
 

Agreed. I think 6-8 games is a reasonable point to start expecting improvements in the space between defence, midfield and attack. If the problem continues then there are tactical worries.

Klopp was just as vulnerable when he started with Liverpool but they improved consistently.

Frank really has to sort that out if he wants to go gung ho

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[Superblue 6,372]

2 minutes ago, Supermonkey92 said:

Agreed. I think 6-8 games is a reasonable point to start expecting improvements in the space between defence, midfield and attack. If the problem continues then there are tactical worries.

Klopp was just as vulnerable when he started with Liverpool but they improved consistently.

Frank really has to sort that out if he wants to go gung ho

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It's very easy to forget how poor Klopp's Liverpool were defensively for (3 years?) before they brought Van Dijk (and Alisson to a lesser extent).

Lampard doesn't have the luxury of entering the market and needs to find our equivalent of Van Dijk to lead, marshall and bring composure to that defence (which I'm sure this season will be Rudiger). Otherwise he may have to wait to get the right player in there until next summer and as a result adapt to the cards he's been dealt a little. 

Luckily we're not looking at yesterday's game with our strongest possible team out thinking how can this situation be improved. There are players to come back who can make a big difference potentially to the defensive aspect of our game (Kante, Rudiger, Reece James, possibly even Willian), and hopefully that change in personnel will make a difference when they're back.

[NikkiCFC 8,286]

12 hours ago, Vesper said:

lets hope this lineup sees the light of day in 90 to 120 days or so

for all our sakes

 

Exactly this is our best lineup. Maybe Jorginho for Kovacic but nevertheless only four players from this lineup started at Old Trafford. 

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

It's very easy to forget how poor Klopp's Liverpool were defensively for (3 years?) before they brought Van Dijk (and Alisson to a lesser extent).
Lampard doesn't have the luxury of entering the market and needs to find our equivalent of Van Dijk to lead, marshall and bring composure to that defence (which I'm sure this season will be Rudiger). Otherwise he may have to wait to get the right player in there until next summer and as a result adapt to the cards he's been dealt a little. 
Luckily we're not looking at yesterday's game with our strongest possible team out thinking how can this situation be improved. There are players to come back who can make a big difference potentially to the defensive aspect of our game (Kante, Rudiger, Reece James, possibly even Willian), and hopefully that change in personnel will make a difference when they're back.

But Klopp made progress with the same players any, but better players meant the improvement was to a greater degree.

This isn't solely down to players, it can be coached. And we are quote bad at it so there is room for the players to improve.

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[Superblue 6,372]

Just now, Supermonkey92 said:

But Klopp made progress with the same players any, but better players meant the improvement was to a greater degree.

This isn't solely down to players, it can be coached. And we are quote bad at it so there is room for the players to improve.

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Made progress, but it was clearly there "achilles heel" and would continue to hold them back competing for the top trophies, especially the consistency needed for the Premier League. The season before last they limped into the top 4 ahead of us. Van Dijk has elevated every single one of those defenders.

I agree that there needs to be more coaching for our defensive shape and that, coupled with time and patience should see improvement. But we also need to find someone capable of organising and leading that defence whether internally or eventually through the transfer market.

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

Made progress, but it was clearly there "achilles heel" and would continue to hold them back competing for the top trophies, especially the consistency needed for the Premier League. The season before last they limped into the top 4 ahead of us. Van Dijk has elevated every single one of those defenders.
I agree that there needs to be more coaching for our defensive shape and that, coupled with time and patience should see improvement. But we also need to find someone capable of organising and leading that defence whether internally or eventually through the transfer market.

No there was great progress from the first match Klopp was in charge until they bought Alisson and VD.

The season before last they made it to the CL final and conceded two unbelievable stupid goals with a confused keeper. That season they smashed city multiple times. In the league at home they killed them, and in that game that pressed as a whole team. City were shiting themselves even with 100m fullbacks. Doing it in the CL showed it was no fluke.

Point being, Klopp made progress *defensively* before spending 150m on a keeper and defender.

Anyway, unpopular opinion most likely, but no way Frank will have us playing like Klopp. He's had What, 7 years at coaching this sort of football? And he has improved since his Dortmund days. Frank will.kost likely need a similar time frame to see how this coaching ideas mould and change.



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[robsblubot 3,595]

5 hours ago, Vesper said:

Pulisic is a starter for the US team, and the best American footballer on the planet. Pedro has 64 caps for Spain. Both our GK'ers are starters, at least part-time, for their national teams. RLC, Mount and CHO both play and/or have started for England. Omeruo and Baba and Moses  and other loan army members start for their national teams. Hell, Zouma has even started a game for France and had 5 National team trophies. Bats starts for Belgium. Even Tammy has twice been called up for England. Zappa and Emerson for Italy, etc. Hell, Bakayoko has played for France, lolol.

The only 3 players on the 25 main roster who have no international senior call ups are Cumming, Reece (soon to change), and Kenedy (he would be a starter for over 100 nations.)

Yup.

I’d not mention smaller national teams though. Being a starter for USA or Nigeria  means nothing at this level. Esp in the conditions the teams are in atm.

So, mostly I made my point against the majority of pl sides, but against the top clubs we are indeed lacking. That’s why United were more clinical. We have nothing like martial or rashFord at this time. We have potential, but not the final product.

we have to hope some of these potentials deliver very very soon tho.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

In all fairness in regards to what Mourinho said about Mount and Abraham being too inexperienced for a game of that magnitude wasnt actually that out of order.

The 2nd half Mount and Abraham offered next to nothing (Barkley off for Mount I felt was a mistake looking back on the game) and Abrahams rather poor attempt at holding up the ball, looking for a foul where a more seasoned player would of likely stayed up, started off a move than ended in a goal although its not directly his fault as it was littered with team and individual errors which relates to the next thing Mourinho said. Mourinho was also right about not defending or pressing as a block and too much space between the lines, as he put it. Interestingly enough, not seen many complaints about that, both comments I felt were very true and a nice change from what usually comes out on sky sports.

If anyone else said it bar Mourinho it wouldnt of been as much of an issue I feel personally. The thing is with Mourinho's general knowledge of the game will be overlooked by our fans purely based on what happened in his last year here. 

For sky sports its a very good appointment as a pundit, I think he will give better insights than Carragher and Neville, who are already pretty good.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

In all fairness in regards to what Mourinho said about Mount and Abraham being too inexperienced for a game of that magnitude wasnt actually that out of order.

The 2nd half Mount and Abraham offered next to nothing (Barkley off for Mount I felt was a mistake looking back on the game) and Abrahams rather poor attempt at holding up the ball, looking for a foul where a more seasoned player would of likely stayed up, started off a move than ended in a goal although its not directly his fault as it was littered with team and individual errors which relates to the next thing Mourinho said. Mourinho was also right about not defending or pressing as a block and too much space between the lines, as he put it. Interestingly enough, not seen many complaints about that, both comments I felt were very true and a nice change from what usually comes out on sky sports.

If anyone else said it bar Mourinho it wouldnt of been as much of an issue I feel personally. The thing is with Mourinho's general knowledge of the game will be overlooked by our fans purely based on what happened in his last year here. 

For sky sports its a very good appointment as a pundit, I think he will give better insights than Carragher and Neville, who are already pretty good.

It wasn't out of order but it was typical of Mourinho to go after the young players and not the more experienced ones for letting the team down by committing stupid mistakes at the back. The player that he mentioned that was the most hilarious, IMO, was Christensen. I mean sure, Christensen didn't have a perfect game but he's only one year younger than Zouma right now and yet, Mourinho didn't mention Zouma. Why? Zouma arguably had a worse game than Christensen. 

[the wes 7,212]

 

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

15 minutes ago, Jason said:

It wasn't out of order but it was typical of Mourinho to go after the young players and not the more experienced ones for letting the team down by committing stupid mistakes at the back. The player that he mentioned that was the most hilarious, IMO, was Christensen. I mean sure, Christensen didn't have a perfect game but he's only one year younger than Zouma right now and yet, Mourinho didn't mention Zouma. Why? Zouma arguably had a worse game than Christensen. 

Yeah thats true. I thought Christensen was the best defensive player on the park for us despite playing average. Didnt think Emerson was that good defensively despite looking decent going the other way (dont think Emerson is good enough or ever will be for where our club aspires to be) and Azpi and Zouma sucked big style.

Think maybe his comments regarding Mount and Abraham were also maybe regarding starting them in such a game when he had Giroud and Pulisic on the bench who are experienced at a higher level too. It was brave from Frank, regsrdless of Willians injury and Christians lack of PL experience and weve all expected and hoped for the use of younger guys in games but Man United turned Arsenal, who played a younger team, over 8-2 with Wenger under Ferguson and he got slaughtered for it as well. Im sure on here back in 2011 there was plenty of it going about and saying why did Wenger persist with so many youngsters in such a high magnitude game despite having more experienced players on the bench. Its swings and roundabouts, Chelsea getting beat 4-0 by United was always gonna be a issue, regardless of team. Mount and Abraham struggled 2nd half to impose themselves in the game and maybe a more experienced manager would of withdrawn them earlier or not have subbed Ross. Who knows. I dont think Jose was out of order to suggest in a game of that magnitude that maybe the 2 of them could have been changed. I think if we had Willian fit he would of played ahead of Mount anyway with Ross inside. Even if the experienced players havent performed well, theyve been there and know how to do it, I dont think you can underestimate experience going to the likes of Old Trafford, Anfield, Etihad etc. The Liverpool game will be interesting, I do hope we see 2 wingers and only 1 number 10 then.

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, OneMoSalah said:

Yeah thats true. I thought Christensen was the best defensive player on the park for us despite playing average. Didnt think Emerson was that good defensively despite looking decent going the other way (dont think Emerson is good enough or ever will be for where our club aspires to be) and Azpi and Zouma sucked big style.

Think maybe his comments regarding Mount and Abraham were also maybe regarding starting them in such a game when he had Giroud and Pulisic on the bench who are experienced at a higher level too. It was brave from Frank, regsrdless of Willians injury and Christians lack of PL experience and weve all expected and hoped for the use of younger guys in games but Man United turned Arsenal, who played a younger team, over 8-2 with Wenger under Ferguson and he got slaughtered for it as well. Im sure on here back in 2011 there was plenty of it going about and saying why did Wenger persist with so many youngsters in such a high magnitude game despite having more experienced players on the bench. Its swings and roundabouts, Chelsea getting beat 4-0 by United was always gonna be a issue, regardless of team. Mount and Abraham struggled 2nd half to impose themselves in the game and maybe a more experienced manager would of withdrawn them earlier or not have subbed Ross. Who knows. I dont think Jose was out of order to suggest in a game of that magnitude that maybe the 2 of them could have been changed. I think if we had Willian fit he would of played ahead of Mount anyway with Ross inside. Even if the experienced players havent performed well, theyve been there and know how to do it, I dont think you can underestimate experience going to the likes of Old Trafford, Anfield, Etihad etc. The Liverpool game will be interesting, I do hope we see 2 wingers and only 1 number 10 then.

It's easy to sit here and criticize Lampard after the game why he played Player X, Y, Z. If we had taken our chances in the first half, then the game would have been completely different, we might have won and we would probably be praising Lampard for putting out that lineup.

As you said and Lampard himself alluded to, we have players injured and players who are not fit yet. So, what did you really expect him to do? Some might say we shouldn't have played the young players but if this is the route we're gonna go with, then might as well have them play and learn from experience from the start. This might be contradicting but it was only United after all, even if it's at Old Trafford, first game of the season and all that. They aren't great. If it was Man City or Liverpool, then maybe you could make a case of going more pragmatic.

The bigger issue for me is the team's structure. No coherent shape from back to front and the disjointed pressing. If we have a solid organization, then what happened yesterday wouldn't have happened and it would give the players a platform to perform. It didn't look like we prepared for the game well, from a tactical point of view.