Mason Mount

[robsblubot 3,595]

3 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Forgive me, but I've been having this conversation on various forums for nearly twenty years and I'm not sure I can raise the enthusiasm to rehearse the arguments once again. That's not to say that I would not be interested to read anything you have to say on the subject, I absolutely will be, but I may not reach for the keyboard to reply. Let me just confirm that I said a player cannot improve his basic talent level at twenty-three, although in fact I don't believe a player can do that much past the age of ten or eleven. The way I often illustrate my point is to ask, "If players can improve their talent level, why don't they all practice until they are Lionel Messi?"

Of all my football opinions, this is the one of which I am most certain. I accept that my confidence is not an argument and so can't mean much to you, but I am 100% certain that I am right. Worse, from your point of view, I am 100% certain that you, and everyone else, will eventually agree with me. 🙂 That's if you don't already feel you can agree with me now that I've reemphasised that I'm talking about absolute talent level. Again, I accept that the strength of my conviction does not mean that you or anyone else will agree, but it does mean that my opinion on this is not biddable. I have this point of view and it can never be changed.

It was my firmness of conviction on this which enabled me to predict in autumn 2011 that Romelu Lukaku would never be good enough for Chelsea. It is why, without watching him play a single minute for Inter, I was confidently able to dismiss the claims of those who told me he had improved in Italy. Indeed, when people explained that he had done extra training with Antonio and claimed that this had transformed him, I simply said that the fact he still needed remedial lessons at the age of 28 only proved that I had been right about him all along.

I agree, of course, that players can learn how to make better use of the talent they have but the range of improvement is always linked to, and limited by, the basic level of ability. Modric always had the talent. He, and his coaches, learned how best to deploy it. It's a frequent experience that as children the high-level footballers play in forward positions simply because they are way more talented that the kids around them. As they rise up the ranks however some of them move lower and find their true home on a football pitch. 

it’s extremely difficult to determine ceiling of young players — how much talent they have. If it were easy salah and KDB would be our top players right now. Paid professionals get this wrong all the time!

I’m still not sure what you define as talent. This is odd because ability isn’t even the defining characteristic of player like Messi to me: he just thinks and acts half a second faster than his opponents. I’ve seen very talented young players fail because they were lost in a football pitch—great first touch,  passing ability, dribbling and still no career.

Very young players like you said, don’t even have their physique developed yet. Sometimes that final change makes or breaks a player alexandre pato had all the talent in the world and diminished as a player once he grew older. Happens with many players.

Also, physique definitely has an affect on players technique: it can affect response time which in turn can be the difference between skipping past a player versus losing the ball to that same player.

suppose we can agree to disagree here, even if we are talking about slightly different things eh.

Edited November 27, 2022 by robsblubot

[Blue Armour 4,436]

17 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Is this a joke? He has 2 goals in last 2 and a half seasons against teams higher than 12th place on table. It should be actually higher than 15th place but AV improved after manager change and is now 12th. They were 17th when Mount scored brace against them. He costed us big time in both EFL and FA Cup finals last season with missing sitters and penalty. Most criticised England player by fans last EURO and now on WC. How is he big game player? Also he is not playing Kovacic role not to be judged with goals. In two months is going to be 2 years since Tuchel took Chelsea. Since then Mount is exclusively playing in front 3. 

I don't know why some Chelsea fans have so much trouble to put realistic look on him. Fans favourite and deserves 300k? While for example we have Pulisic who is shit and should be sold to mid table team according to many. But what is difference between them when you put numbers on paper? 

Mount 32g 37a for us 13217mins. 

Pulisic 26g 21a 7614mins. 

Add to that Pulisic doesn't take set pieces and penalties for us. If you take that away from Mount, Pulisic actually has more goals and assists in 5600 less minutes which is like 62 games. They are playing same position for us and should be compared. Don't get me wrong I'm not happy with Pulisic either but main point is that we would make tremendous mistake if we extend Mount for 300k. Even 200k is generous. And really curious to see what would happen if we don't give him what he wants. He thinks someone else is going to pay him that much? No chance. 

Slightly off-topic, but what is your current opinion on Connor Gallagher?

How would you rate him compared to Mount? I recall that you seemed to rate him higher, with him being a year younger than Mason.

[NikkiCFC 8,285]

52 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Slightly off-topic, but what is your current opinion on Connor Gallagher?

How would you rate him compared to Mount? I recall that you seemed to rate him higher, with him being a year younger than Mason.

He is not performing at last season level. But not sure how much is his fault. There is a position issue and would definitely give him more time. But he is like for like replacement for Mount and another reason not to give 300k to Mason. 

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

He is not performing at last season level. But not sure how much is his fault. There is a position issue and would definitely give him more time. But he is like for like replacement for Mount and another reason not to give 300k to Mason. 

And they don't work together so one way or another a decision needs to be made between both.

[Reddish-Blue 2,489]

12 hours ago, robsblubot said:

it’s extremely difficult to determine ceiling of young players — how much talent they have. If it were easy salah and KDB would be our top players right now. Paid professionals get this wrong all the time!

I’m still not sure what you define as talent. This is odd because ability isn’t even the defining characteristic of player like Messi to me: he just thinks and acts half a second faster than his opponents. I’ve seen very talented young players fail because they were lost in a football pitch—great first touch,  passing ability, dribbling and still no career.

Very young players like you said, don’t even have their physique developed yet. Sometimes that final change makes or breaks a player alexandre pato had all the talent in the world and diminished as a player once he grew older. Happens with many players.

Also, physique definitely has an affect on players technique: it can affect response time which in turn can be the difference between skipping past a player versus losing the ball to that same player.

suppose we can agree to disagree here, even if we are talking about slightly different things eh.

You do realize that one of the best talent scouts in world football (Piet de vissier) who was a consultant for Roman for many years basically said "don't sell KDB" as this kid will one day go to the very top...and that was after watching him for half a season at the Belgian club he was playing for...

It just wasn't meant to be as KDB had ambitions to be a first team player and he asked Mourinho about his prospects and Mourinho said he preferred to develop Oscar as he was more well rounded to the tactical system at the time. 

As for your example on Pato, it was just injuries and getting too much acclaim at the young age which destroyed his career.  People forget that a very young Pato went to Camp Nou with AC Milan in those days and he was destroying one of the better Barcelona teams of that era, then came the pressure, then came all the injuries. 

I'm not saying that Mount is a bad player, I just think he's not worth the reported figures of 300k a week as he doesn't have a skill that stands out on a consistent basis.  With Lampard, you knew you were getting goals, with Hazard, you knew he would embarrass the opposition fullback, with Fabregas you knew he had that killer pass in him.  When I think of Mount, nothing really comes to mind...but I guess you could say pressing? 

 

[chelsea_4_eva 1,180]

Tbh I'd even be hesitant to offer him 250k, to me 250k is pushing it.

[robsblubot 3,595]

12 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

You do realize that one of the best talent scouts in world football (Piet de vissier) who was a consultant for Roman for many years basically said "don't sell KDB" as this kid will one day go to the very top...and that was after watching him for half a season at the Belgian club he was playing for...

It just wasn't meant to be as KDB had ambitions to be a first team player and he asked Mourinho about his prospects and Mourinho said he preferred to develop Oscar as he was more well rounded to the tactical system at the time. 

As for your example on Pato, it was just injuries and getting too much acclaim at the young age which destroyed his career.  People forget that a very young Pato went to Camp Nou with AC Milan in those days and he was destroying one of the better Barcelona teams of that era, then came the pressure, then came all the injuries. 

I'm not saying that Mount is a bad player, I just think he's not worth the reported figures of 300k a week as he doesn't have a skill that stands out on a consistent basis.  With Lampard, you knew you were getting goals, with Hazard, you knew he would embarrass the opposition fullback, with Fabregas you knew he had that killer pass in him.  When I think of Mount, nothing really comes to mind...but I guess you could say pressing? 

 

Fair enough, but that was meant as a general comment esp when you go into younger (than 20) and youth systems. It gets progressively more difficult to assess "talent."

I was one of the few people here who thought Salah was a top player -- wrote here too, but in the end it's all opinions and guesswork.

Regarding Pato, precisely, it show how much physique affects "talent" (skill, technique) esp in the footballing elite. Some of the players who we deem not good enough at Chelsea would absolute dominate a tier lower. It's that split second decision and time on the ball that you don't get at this level.

And that's why I think Mount can indeed improve: a slight improvement in that split-second decision making could make him a much more influential player. I do see plenty of skill in his game too: good first touch, passing, very quick feet. He has good technique striking the football, and for that reason I think he can do better than he does atm.

Salary discussion is more about the market than a perceived quality. Wages in football are crazy these days... City one of the worst offenders, so it's hard to criticize players/agents and clubs with so much investment in the sport.

[Superblue 6,372]

On 27/11/2022 at 16:02, OhForAGreavsie said:

I agree, of course, that players can learn how to make better use of the talent they have but the range of improvement is always linked to, and limited by, the basic level of ability. Modric always had the talent. He, and his coaches, learned how best to deploy it. It's a frequent experience that as children the high-level footballers play in forward positions simply because they are way more talented that the kids around them. As they rise up the ranks however some of them move lower and find their true home on a football pitch. 

For me, I think Mount is best suited as a midfielder in a 3, in a number 8 style role.

I think, like you mentioned on a previous post, too many things that Mount tries don't quite come off and there are definitely situations where this hinders our attack. Having him as part of an attacking three doesn't benefit him or Chelsea. But he's also had the misfortune of playing in a team set up that doesn't really have his best role available for him.

A lot will depend on Potter and what his longer-term plans are for the team and whether he looks to move away from the back 3 and instead use a back 4 regularly. This might unlock Mount and answer a lot of questions with him. I wouldn't actually be too surprised if part of his contract talks centred around his role long term in the team.

I'm not comparing Mount and Modric, but Modric played predominantly on the wing when he was younger and initially for Spurs. We only really saw just how good he truly was, like you said, when he was deployed correctly for his abilities and skillset. I believe Mount is more of a 'connector' than a 'creator', and needs to play that bit deeper.

Can he kick on alongside the club if we can start challenging again over the next couple of years? I guess that's something we'll see if, hopefully, we do start progressing well but I would definitely like to see him operating in a different role in the team first before making that judgement.

 

[Reddish-Blue 2,489]

7 hours ago, Superblue said:

For me, I think Mount is best suited as a midfielder in a 3, in a number 8 style role.

I think, like you mentioned on a previous post, too many things that Mount tries don't quite come off and there are definitely situations where this hinders our attack. Having him as part of an attacking three doesn't benefit him or Chelsea. But he's also had the misfortune of playing in a team set up that doesn't really have his best role available for him.

A lot will depend on Potter and what his longer-term plans are for the team and whether he looks to move away from the back 3 and instead use a back 4 regularly. This might unlock Mount and answer a lot of questions with him. I wouldn't actually be too surprised if part of his contract talks centred around his role long term in the team.

I'm not comparing Mount and Modric, but Modric played predominantly on the wing when he was younger and initially for Spurs. We only really saw just how good he truly was, like you said, when he was deployed correctly for his abilities and skillset. I believe Mount is more of a 'connector' than a 'creator', and needs to play that bit deeper.

Can he kick on alongside the club if we can start challenging again over the next couple of years? I guess that's something we'll see if, hopefully, we do start progressing well but I would definitely like to see him operating in a different role in the team first before making that judgement.

 

I think the bigger problem is that no-one knows what Mount's best role is, and that's a significant concern for the club, going into contract extension talks with one of their best academy products (Reece being the other). 

We say he's better in a midfield 3 but that's the same as saying Havertz/Pulisic/Ziyech are best utilized in a free role behind the striker.   Feel like we have too many players who want to play a specific role in the team. 

Azpi had to play at LB when he started out at Chelsea, Ivanovic was playing RB, Essien had multiple games at RB/LB. 

Until we get our midfield situation sorted (both Kante & Jorginho are available on a free at the end of the season as things stand), I don't see Potter making any drastic tactical changes for the 2nd half of the season.  

[Superblue 6,372]

1 hour ago, Reddish-Blue said:

I think the bigger problem is that no-one knows what Mount's best role is, and that's a significant concern for the club, going into contract extension talks with one of their best academy products (Reece being the other). 

We say he's better in a midfield 3 but that's the same as saying Havertz/Pulisic/Ziyech are best utilized in a free role behind the striker.   Feel like we have too many players who want to play a specific role in the team. 

Azpi had to play at LB when he started out at Chelsea, Ivanovic was playing RB, Essien had multiple games at RB/LB. 

Until we get our midfield situation sorted (both Kante & Jorginho are available on a free at the end of the season as things stand), I don't see Potter making any drastic tactical changes for the 2nd half of the season.  

Completely understand that. It's the result of transfer activity over a number of seasons with no clear strategy to build out the squad.

Mount is still serviceable in the role he currently plays, hence why he's usually preferred to the likes of Pulisic and Ziyech in there. But I would like to see him playing in a deeper role in midfield at some stage for an extended period to see what we might have with him and if it's something that could work moving forward.

Regarding Potter in the 2nd half of the season, I disagree. If we don't get out of the traps early from the restart, I think we'll leave too much to do to make top 4 this season. For me this needs to be the time where he is looking at making drastic changes whether it's tactical or personnel and start deciding and building towards what he wants to do in the long term with this squad. We can't keep churning wheels for the second half of the season just to get through it, because recently it's been awful.

[Reddish-Blue 2,489]

22 hours ago, Superblue said:

Completely understand that. It's the result of transfer activity over a number of seasons with no clear strategy to build out the squad.

Mount is still serviceable in the role he currently plays, hence why he's usually preferred to the likes of Pulisic and Ziyech in there. But I would like to see him playing in a deeper role in midfield at some stage for an extended period to see what we might have with him and if it's something that could work moving forward.

Regarding Potter in the 2nd half of the season, I disagree. If we don't get out of the traps early from the restart, I think we'll leave too much to do to make top 4 this season. For me this needs to be the time where he is looking at making drastic changes whether it's tactical or personnel and start deciding and building towards what he wants to do in the long term with this squad. We can't keep churning wheels for the second half of the season just to get through it, because recently it's been awful.

Alot of that will depend upon the fitness of players returning from injuries (James, Fofana, Kante) and what happens with our squad players who aren't really clicking with the team but look very good for their national sides (Pulisic, Ziyech). 

I get the building towards the long term but that won't happen till next season, feels like we're almost at that point where we should just rip the band aid off from our midfield and just head into next season with a clean slate (probably means that Kante may end up walking for free). Potter wasn't helped by the fact that our best player went down with injury just before our run of fixtures heading into the world cup break.  

Definitely some interesting months ahead.  Wonder if Mount does get moved to the midfield with a new contract. 

[Vesper 30,089]

Revealed: Mason Mount’s HORRIFIC form in last three months

https://www.footballtransfers.com/en/transfer-news/uk-premier-league/2023/01/mason-mounts-Chelsea-stats-form-contract

Mason Mount’s contract at Chelsea expires at the end of next season and talks over a renewal have been put on hold until after the January transfer window.

The feeling is that Mount wants to stay at Chelsea and that Chelsea want him to stay.

However, there are two major problems right now when it comes to an extension - both of them connected.

The first is that Mount is asking for a lot of money - there are even reports that he is requesting €300,000 per week.

Secondly, Mount’s form in recent months has been nothing short of disastrous.

What has happened to Mason Mount?

In the last three months for club and country - since October 19 - Mount has scored just one goal and delivered zero assists in 17 matches, 13 of these starts.

His only goal contribution was a 90th minute strike on December 27 to clinch a 2-0 Chelsea win over Bournemouth.

He has been one of Chelsea’s worst performers under new manager Graham Potter, which has led to the Blues plummeting to 10th place in the Premier League, 10 points off the top four and out of both domestic cups.

Mount has been in terrible form in recent months

For the second major international tournament in a row, Mount was also dismal for England. He made no attacking contributions in his four games in Qatar, so much so that he was dropped from the starting XI after the second group game versus the United States.

Having previously been the darling of the Chelsea fans, Mount has now become hugely unpopular with large sections of the fanbase.

Some of it is unfair. He was previously two-time Chelsea Player of the Year and it is clear that virtually every Chelsea player is underperforming this campaign amidst all the chaos off the pitch and in the transfer market.

But it is also true that an attacking midfielder with one goal contribution from 17 games cannot walk into contract negotiations and expect a huge contract.

This is the big problem Chelsea and Mount have right now. And the only solution to the problem is for the Englishman to start performing again.

[Milan 17,955]

yup, keep performing like this and the new contract will be well earned......

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

I think he knows he won't get the contract he wants. 

 

[NikkiCFC 8,285]

2 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I think he knows he won't get the contract he wants. 

 

Would he even want to stay if not starter? By Lamps words he is very upset when not playing. And with new players coming in there is absolutely no place for him. Kante, Kovacic, Felix, Sterling, Pulisic all out today. Mudryk not ready to start. And Nkunku is coming next season, let's see with Caicedo. Only this is a reason why he is still playing.