The Conte Thread

[Amblève. 4,995]

20 minutes ago, Essien19 said:

Matic was one of the reasons why Costa scored the goal the way he did. Conte did the right thing to let him play. Do you think Matic was that bad overall? I think his good moments overshadowed the poor, is Fabregas really the better solution?

Oscar could have ended up getting substituted...Fabregas showed that he can play football at an acceptable level again, still, expected a better free kick (under these circumstances) and not every of his passes were good, a bit knee jerk, i guess. I'm not a fan of his, Luiz showed that he can deliver those long balls.

You say we were already 2:0 down, but you shouldn't forget that this particuar scoreline is the one which has been most times overcome. You only need one goal to be back in it, i would have much rather brought on an agile attacker, someone like Batshuayi. But i have no problems with Conte's decision making.
Chelsea will win lots of games because of him.

I absolutely do think that Matic was poor tonight, not the first time either this season. The role he's supposed to play doesn't suit him (at least not on this level) though so it's hard to actually expect good performances out of him. However, I do expect Conte to notice that Matic is simply not providing enough as the ball-carrier in that first-11 and to drop him or put him into another role as the season progresses. Whether Fabregas actually is a better option we have to fully see yet but I'd rather take my chances with him than with an ultra-defensive midfield that failed to provide any defensive stability and pressing vs Liverpool let alone to contribute offensively (And no, I don't think a one-off warranted Matic staying on the pitch; he had 3, I believe, more runs in almost the same manner that completely failed so banking on him providing any offensive output close to his assist is rather delusional).

My reasoning for bringing on Fabregas at halftime has more to do with the way we played football in the first half than the result itself because we might as well have been 3:0 or 4:0 down considering the shit show we displayed. Even our only goal came after a Matic run that you see twice a season tops and nothing after that goal came even close being a decent chance. I get it, 2:0 down with still 45 minutes to play you try to keep your head and take calculated risks. 2:1 and you're suddenly back in the game again, once more you take a calculated approach and see what you can get. Unfortunately though this team hasn't looked convincing at all in these kind of situations for 1,5 years now, mostly simply because we don't have the players to keep calm and produce THAT one chance. Hazard was the only player on the pitch capable of doing so but he's only gonna do it so often. Fabregas who can pick out that one pass didn't get to play until the last 7 minutes or so and even when he was on the pitch he was used for putting crosses into the 18-yard box.

Conte should have committed to one approach in the 2nd half instead of that half-assed system. Either try to run Liverpool off the pitch or bring on Batshuayi to occupy the space between Costa and our midfield but don't ever try to play controlled football with this collective of players when you're behind.

[nono 791]

1 hour ago, Styles said:

Honestly, Conte may or may not be a top manager. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt (and I will) but I'd be lying if I said there weren't some worrying signs.

But what isn't in doubt is that we have an awful of shit footballers and that arguably more than half the squad is dead-weight. And we will continue to be an also-ran for the foreseeable future because of those reasons.

Tonight we lost to the first good team we have played this season. We couldn't get near them in the first half and we only came back into the game because their level dropped. A large part of the second half was what I would call 'fake pressure' - they let us have the ball and we had no idea how to create any meaningful chances.

Tonight's game was eerily similar to what we saw last season and why would it be any different? The team is largely the same - there haven't been nearly enough changes to have a clean break from the rubbish of the 15-16 season.

Hate to sound so downbeat but I'm just sick and tired of watching us get outplayed by every half decent team we play and resorting to shit on a stick football. Surely at some point enough is enough?

In the first half our centrehalves were trying to pump the the ball up the pitch to the wingers. There was no midfield and the commentators were mentioning that there was no one in the centre to pass the ball around. That was on Conte for selecting Oscar. Conte would be close to a sacking at this point without the goals Costa conjures every game. 

[Henrique 9,133]

1 minute ago, Styles said:

What would you class as positive direction? We could play awful football for most of the year and still finish higher than we did last season.

Positive signs for me would be a progressive, modern style of play being implemented, some dead-wood being banished and players like Aina getting a chance. How likely are those things to happen? I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Liverpool had a shit season, but they showed a "positive direction". Instead of "dead-wood" being banished, I would like to see Conte making those players still producing at least some kind of football. Believe me, the likes of Ivanovic, Matic and Oscar are far from world class players, but they are not so bad that could be used as an excuse for shit football.

[Tomo 21,733]

1 minute ago, Styles said:

What would you class as positive direction? We could play awful football for most of the year and still finish higher than we did last season.

Positive signs for me would be a progressive, modern style of play being implemented, some dead-wood being banished and players like Aina getting a chance. How likely are those things to happen? I'm not gonna hold my breath.

A clear sign if improvement on tactical and physical aspects, Diego nets that equalize and were all probably on here now raving about our fighting spirit, which is one element I have believed we have improved on as 6 points won in final ten minutes so far allude too.

Unfortunately last season's crap wasn't going to completely vanish overnight, five league games so far we have had three good performances and two rubbish ones, that ratio over the season will probably have us in topfour,achieve that, get shot of more Deadwood and go again should be primary aim.

 

[Styles 9,790]

1 minute ago, Henrique said:

Liverpool had a shit season, but they showed a "positive direction". Instead of "dead-wood" being banished, I would like to see Conte making those players still producing at least some kind of football. Believe me, the likes of Ivanovic, Matic and Oscar are far from world class players, but they are not so bad that could be used as an excuse for shit football.

We will have to agree to disagree because in my mind those are 3 of the biggest culprits right there. Those 3 players should have been moved on the summer but here they are, still in the first 11. Matic is a prime example: he is a slow, one-footed donkey that lacks even basic spatial awareness. How can we ever play well with somebody like that in a key part of the field? It's impossible.

 

[Henrique 9,133]

6 minutes ago, Tomo said:

A clear sign if improvement on tactical and physical aspects, Diego nets that equalize and were all probably on here now raving about our fighting spirit, which is one element I have believed we have improved on as 6 points won in final ten minutes so far allude too.

Unfortunately last season's crap wasn't going to completely vanish overnight, five league games so far we have had three good performances and two rubbish ones, that ratio over the season will probably have us in topfour,achieve that, get shot of more Deadwood and go again should be primary aim.

 

Even if Diego had equalized, whats different from what we have seen during Hiddink tenure? I remember some games of "fighting spirit": last minute equalize against Unite, that Spurs game, and I think you are being a little optimistic about the current form being enough for a top 4 finish. United, City and Arsenal are definitely finishing on top 4, and I'm really impressed with Liverpool. They had the hardest table in first 5 games, and got 6 points in away games against Arsenal and Chelsea.

Finishing between 5th and 6th is the reality of this team, in my opinion, and it would be really hard to see Conte surviving such a finish.

[Henrique 9,133]

7 minutes ago, Styles said:

We will have to agree to disagree because in my mind those are 3 of the biggest culprits right there. Those 3 players should have been moved on the summer but here they are, still in the first 11. Matic is a prime example: he is a slow, one-footed donkey that lacks even basic spatial awareness. How can we ever play well with somebody like that in a key part of the field? It's impossible.

 

So, they are so bad that you cant beat Swansea with them, or even play decent football against a not so stellar Liverpool side? 

 

 

[Styles 9,790]

Just now, Henrique said:

So, they are so bad that you cant beat Swansea with them, or even play decent football against a not so stellar Liverpool side?

Yes, I believe so. And trust me, that's not to protect Conte - there are some worrying signs about his management but I refuse to blame him for having non-footballers make up 70% of his squad.

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

32 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Conte was gamble. When he was announced, many people tried to picture him as a genius, and he is not. At least no yet. His job with Italy NT has nothing to do with club stuff. Managing clubs and NTs are different animals. Dont tell me he did great with Juventus, because Juve is miles ahead of other teams in terms of money and structure at the moment, so winning Seria A 3 times in a row with Juventus don't turn Conte in a great manager.

I'm not saying (yet) he is a fraud or must be fired. Just take a look at last weekend game between United and City. United is not a Mourinho side yet. Far from solid at the back, conceding way too many chances to City, and City is also far from solid, and their passing is still far from what you would expect from a Guardiola's side. This Chelsea is not a Conte side yet, but I'm really worried about his in game decisions. After 5 games, I cant tell I've never seen a manager making such stupid decisions like he is doing. In that aspect, until now he is worse than Scolari, AVB, RDM, Ranieri, Mourinho, Hiddink, Grant, Mourinho and even Rafa Benitez. I mean, the mean is getting outplayed the whole game, and we are entering in 77th minute with not a single sub. I mean, WTF? He is not even changing the players role in the pitch, the team basically keep using the same rigid tactics.

His team selection is also weird. Mourinho basically had the same line up (Matic, Fabregas; Oscar, William, Hazard; Costa), and when he wanted a more solid midfield he only changed Ramires for Oscar, but Conte is even worst. Same line up, no matter who he is facing. 

For the usual suspects, don't start with the "this squad is not good enough" bullshit. That would be a valid point if we were talking about a game against City or even United. This was a game against Liverpool. Liverpool's starting XI today was not even close of being stronger than ours. Conte was completely outclassed by Klopp. 

I don't get this 'Liverpool's team is no where good as ours'. Where, exactly? For the record i think of Liverpool as a on the brink of top 4 team. 

Keeper and defensive mid, i get it. Id prefer Costa over sturridge but thats mighty close. Hazard over coutinho? Not sure anymore. Willian over Firminho? I dont think so. Oscar vs Llalana? Matic vs the dutch fella? Ivanovic vs Clyne? Heck James bloody milner seems about as good as apzi at the moment in left back and twice as good going foward. 

Its not just perfectly justified to point out how bad this team is, its neccessary to compare it to Liverpool's. 

[Henrique 9,133]

3 minutes ago, Styles said:

Yes, I believe so. And trust me, that's not to protect Conte - there are some worrying signs about his management but I refuse to blame him for having non-footballers make up 70% of his squad.

Its just you being hypercritical towards your own team. Conte was shit today and was shit against Swansea.

[Tomo 21,733]

17 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Even if Diego had equalized, whats different from what we have seen during Hiddink tenure? I remember some games of "fighting spirit": last minute equalize against Unite, that Spurs game, and I think you are being a little optimistic about the current form being enough for a top 4 finish. United, City and Arsenal are definitely finishing on top 4, and I'm really impressed with Liverpool. They had the hardest table in first 5 games, and got 6 points in away games against Arsenal and Chelsea.

Finishing between 5th and 6th is the reality of this team, in my opinion, and it would be really hard to see Conte surviving such a finish.

Hiddink we did it three times irrc, we already matched that tally in four games Also problem with Liverpool is they stop too many easy points, they remind me off our pre Roman team in that respect.

City are champions this season no doubt, but beyond that it's a 3 for all, the three least average sides will make it. 

[Styles 9,790]

10 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Its just you being hypercritical towards your own team. Conte was shit today and was shit against Swansea.

He was, absolutely. Using your 3 subs with just 6 minutes to go despite losing for almost the ENTIRE game is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen a supposedly top coach ever do.

Trust me I'm not being hypercritical at all. You said in one of your earlier posts:

"Liverpool's starting XI today was not even close of being stronger than ours."

Again, that's something I disagree with. Several of our players wouldn't make Liverpool's team. You think Cahill, Ivanovic, Oscar, Matic would? Hell, I would take Mane over Willian personally.

 

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

41 minutes ago, Styles said:

What would you class as positive direction? We could play awful football for most of the year and still finish higher than we did last season.

Positive signs for me would be a progressive, modern style of play being implemented, some dead-wood being banished and players like Aina getting a chance. How likely are those things to happen? I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Lets not suddenly forget the previous four matches. West ham we played well even if they were crap. Last year when teams underperformed we still created didly squat. This year we have impotus, play out from the back more and make more direcr passes to wide players and Diego. Played well against Burnley, and well enough to have beaten Swansea by half time. We arent back to where we need to be, but its still progress towards it. 

One stat that actually means something to me is the shots we have conceded this season which is a massive improvement on last season. Even tonight when we were abysmal and dominated, we werent exactly peppered with shots, though Matic and Oscars lazy jog tried their best to make Kante try and close one attacker whilst keeping an eye on the other. 

At the end of the day, progress should be judged also on the style Conte wants. He obviously wants a mobile midfield which is why cesc isn starting. Whether he should sacrifice mobility for some fucking brains is another question. 

Conte isnt the messiah or the next guardiola. But then i honestly doubt guardiola could do much better with the starting 11 today. 

[Henrique 9,133]

4 minutes ago, Supermonkey92 said:

I don't get this 'Liverpool's team is no where good as ours'. Where, exactly? For the record i think of Liverpool as a on the brink of top 4 team. 

Keeper and defensive mid, i get it. Id prefer Costa over sturridge but thats mighty close. Hazard over coutinho? Not sure anymore. Willian over Firminho? I dont think so. Oscar vs Llalana? Matic vs the dutch fella? Ivanovic vs Clyne? Heck James bloody milner seems about as good as apzi at the moment in left back and twice as good going foward. 

Its not just perfectly justified to point out how bad this team is, its neccessary to compare it to Liverpool's. 

Dont twist my words. I just said that the quality of the players don't explain why Liverpool dominated the game for most part. Ok, you might see Firmino. Llalana, Coutinho, "dutch fella" and Clyne as better players than Oscar, Willian, Hazard, Ivanovic and Matic, but they are not way better. Actually, most of the pundits would agree thats the other way (our starting XI is better than Liverpool's one). This is squad is decent enough to have a good game against Liverpool, but that never happened. The team barely created, and when pressed barely defended. 

 

[Styles 9,790]

5 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Dont twist my words. I just said that the quality of the players don't explain why Liverpool dominated the game for most part. Ok, you might see Firmino. Llalana, Coutinho, "dutch fella" and Clyne as better players than Oscar, Willian, Hazard, Ivanovic and Matic, but they are not way better. Actually, most of the pundits would agree thats the other way (our starting XI is better than Liverpool's one). This is squad is decent enough to have a good game against Liverpool, but that never happened. The team barely created, and when pressed barely defended.

It's a shame  for us that football is not played on paper. Maybe our so-called bigger names would have won but they got exposed for what they are: frauds.

[Essien19 1,415]

1 hour ago, Amblève. said:

I absolutely do think that Matic was poor tonight, not the first time either this season. The role he's supposed to play doesn't suit him (at least not on this level) though so it's hard to actually expect good performances out of him. However, I do expect Conte to notice that Matic is simply not providing enough as the ball-carrier in that first-11 and to drop him or put him into another role as the season progresses. Whether Fabregas actually is a better option we have to fully see yet but I'd rather take my chances with him than with an ultra-defensive midfield that failed to provide any defensive stability and pressing vs Liverpool let alone to contribute offensively (And no, I don't think a one-off warranted Matic staying on the pitch; he had 3, I believe, more runs in almost the same manner that completely failed so banking on him providing any offensive output close to his assist is rather delusional).

My reasoning for bringing on Fabregas at halftime has more to do with the way we played football in the first half than the result itself because we might as well have been 3:0 or 4:0 down considering the shit show we displayed. Even our only goal came after a Matic run that you see twice a season tops and nothing after that goal came even close being a decent chance. I get it, 2:0 down with still 45 minutes to play you try to keep your head and take calculated risks. 2:1 and you're suddenly back in the game again, once more you take a calculated approach and see what you can get. Unfortunately though this team hasn't looked convincing at all in these kind of situations for 1,5 years now, mostly simply because we don't have the players to keep calm and produce THAT one chance. Hazard was the only player on the pitch capable of doing so but he's only gonna do it so often. Fabregas who can pick out that one pass didn't get to play until the last 7 minutes or so and even when he was on the pitch he was used for putting crosses into the 18-yard box.

Conte should have committed to one approach in the 2nd half instead of that half-assed system. Either try to run Liverpool off the pitch or bring on Batshuayi to occupy the space between Costa and our midfield but don't ever try to play controlled football with this collective of players when you're behind.

Fabregas shines when he gets on the ball a lot of times. He needs good off the ball movement: the run determines the pass. What other than just hoofing it towards Costa could he had done? I'm not convinced that the team could have made it a nicer environment for him. Could it really been better with him 20 minutes earlier?! Mhh. 
 

Quote

"ultra-defensive midfield that failed to provide any defensive stability and pressing vs Liverpool"

Mané has been in good form for the last couple of weeks, however against Chelsea he couldn't do shit. Maybe he had a one-off, or Chelsea took good care of him. How many clear cut chances did Pool really had? Sure they played the ball around, but they didn't get behind the central defence many times. There must have been some defensive stability from Chelsea's midfield and that wasn't just Kanté, imo.

I wouldn't downplay the importance of a move that brought us right back into the game. You need to start from somewhere, need a basis and if that free kick from Fabregas had gone in, it would have been one important point. But yeah, not every of his moves was a good one, most people know that he's all about that left foot and can be a bit ackward with the ball at this feet.
Between Fabregas and Matic it's a question of what you want. You said it yourself, you want to take more risks, more action, many people would go with Fabregas in this scenario, i guess.

Against this Klopp side you need to pass the ball quickly, Fabregas might have been a start, but most part of the team aren't good enough for this kind of stuff, so maybe it wouldn't have worked. We've only seen him for a short amount of time but for me there was nothing that suggested a different outcome. 

For me Hazard was poor, didn't see much of him in the second half. I liked more of what Willian did.

When was the last time Chelsea won a league game when they were 2:0 behind at half time?  But yes, your proposal (Batshuayi) in the last paragraph sound good to me. Wasn't it Oscar's job?

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

2 minutes ago, Henrique said:

Dont twist my words. I just said that the quality of the players don't explain why Liverpool dominated the game for most part. Ok, you might see Firmino. Llalana, Coutinho, "dutch fella" and Clyne as better players than Oscar, Willian, Hazard, Ivanovic and Matic, but they are not way better. Actually, most of the pundits would agree thats the other way (our starting XI is better than Liverpool's one). This is squad is decent enough to have a good game against Liverpool, but that never happened. The team barely created, and when pressed barely defended. 

 

Well we were particularly bad tonight even by our normal standards. Our sub par players arent normally as sub par as they were today. That seems to account for the first half at least. Though this comparing one by one is very limited, at the end of the day its how a team plays together compared to the other. 

Our problem is, and has been for 2 years, intelligence. Willian doesnt actually have an idea what to do when he goes on impressive runs from deep. Matic roams forward, no clear option? Run down a dead end on the left flank or pass to apzi and wait awkwardly 5 yards away from him. Cahill seems to panic if the easy pass to Terry isnt on. 

Liverpool's team play like a unit, we only seem to do that against lesser teams but its a start. Last season our play was so disjointed it was baffling. But the ceiling for this team to play as a fluid but defensively able unit is held back by unintelligent and poor technique players

[Henrique 9,133]

14 minutes ago, Styles said:

He was, absolutely. Using your 3 subs with just 6 minutes to go despite losing for almost the ENTIRE game is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen a supposedly top coach ever do.

Trust me I'm not being hypercritical at all. You said in one of your earlier posts:

"Liverpool's starting XI today was not even close of being stronger than ours."

Again, that's something I disagree with. Several of our players wouldn't make Liverpool's team. You think Cahill, Ivanovic, Oscar, Matic would? Hell, I would take Mane over Willian personally.

 

And think you were also saying years ago that Atletico's team was easily better than ours in that UCL semi final, after the team was completely outplayed. Liverpool's squad is also average, and everyone who know about the game realizes it. The difference today was very simple: Klopp is a better manager. Conte is a gamble, and just like AVB until he is getting more praise for wild celebrations than anything else. Lovren is no better than Cahill, Henderson is a very limited player and Milner is solid but far from special.

Our squad is really limited, but so is Liverpool's one. The result today was not a result of a bad squad playing against a very good one, as some people are saying. Its weird when people are saying Conte is so unlucky because he didn't get the likes of Nainggolan (good player, but nothing special). If we have a manager that need a Nainggolan tier to get a decent game, then we are definitely fucked. 

Im basically saying Conte should do better with the current squad. Bringing the quality of the squad in a thread about Conte is no more than an attempt to create excuses, even if you dont want to.