Closed Werder Bremen 3-0 Chelsea

[Barbara 15,149]

About Cesc, if your refering to my comment in the match thread I don't think we shouldn't have signed him, im just not convinced the Matic Cesc in CM will turn out the way we hope. Would love to be wrong.

Honestly I don't remember seeing your post, maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I'm positive I wasn't referring to you. But it should apply if your conclusion came from the last 135 minutes he's played.

The point isn't questioning his signing in general or not, but questioning it on what's been shown in two friendlies, especially with the assumption he can't play the pivot position when in 180 minutes (a bit less because he was subbed last match) he played there only 45 and he and Matic were nearly flawless then. He hasn't been anywhere near the pivot today and still there were people saying he can't play there because he's slow, because when he lost the ball he couldn't be fast enough to recover it and it exposed us, etc... make assumptions it will happen is anyone's guess, but that hasn't happened yet because the only 45 minutes he's played there he didn't face this.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I'm going to scratch this one down to fatigue. We've done a lot of travelling across Europe in the Pre-season tour so far and our boys finally felt weary in their legs. That much is clear from the very lethargic 1st half performance. Jet lag is a reality, even across European countries. It's impossible and ultimately futile to make pronouncements about formations and which player should play where and our best system and so on. Could we pass the ball better, let the ball do the running and dictate tempo despite possible fatigue, definitely yes but that's about all you can definitively say about this game tbh.

[Tomo 21,681]

Honestly I don't remember seeing your post, maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I'm positive I wasn't referring to you. But it should apply if your conclusion came from the last 135 minutes he's played.

The point isn't questioning his signing in general or not, but questioning it on what's been shown in two friendlies, especially with the assumption he can't play the pivot position when in 180 minutes (a bit less because he was subbed last match) he played there only 45 and he and Matic were nearly flawless then. He hasn't been anywhere near the pivot today and still there were people saying he can't play there because he's slow, because when he lost the ball he couldn't be fast enough to recover it and it exposed us, etc... make assumptions it will happen is anyone's guess, but that hasn't happened yet because the only 45 minutes he's played there he didn't face this.

Fair enough, tbh i wasn't even basing it on pre season games (i don't take much from them at all), i guess it looked that way given the timing off the post but i was more thinking out loud.

My basis for my concern is Matic likes to take chances sometimes and press very very high to win the ball, it has high reward like against Arsenal but every now and again he doesn't win the ball like when Delph skinned him just before his winner vs us, this ain't a bad thing on Matic i think he is the best DM we have had since Maka im just saying due to Nemanja's proactive game there will be a few instances were he gets caught out and Cesc will be the only one protecting the back 4.

Also i think Matic is underrated attacking wise, he has good passing (see assist for Salah vs Arsenal) and has devastating bursts forward in him (that run and dribble at Anfield a little taster, as well as his assist for again Salah vs Stoke).And I fear in a pivot with Cesc, Matic might get restricted due to Fabregas not being the best defensively.

I personally think the best for this team would be 4 3 3 with Matic, Ramires and Cesc (offers balance but the only downside is that would mean an almost certain casualty in AM but that's the nature of the beast) with Rami being the main holder, I really believe Matic could be our box to box general, would be such a shame to see him restricted.

I hope im wrong and Matic and Cesc partnership does turn out to be as good in practice as it is on paper, but im not sure.

(Styles brought this subject up a few weeks back and he explained it a lot better than i am now)

[Chelsea? 892]

we'd be better off just making one big flight to the States and playing all our games in usa than taravelling all over europe

[bluesman2610 1,226]

The Bundesliga actually starts on 22 August (6 days after PL start).

well there goes my hypothesis lol thank you for the correction

[The Chels 2,502]

we'd be better off just making one big flight to the States and playing all our games in usa than taravelling all over europe

You'd still have to fly within the US though.

[Barbara 15,149]

Fair enough, tbh i wasn't even basing it on pre season games (i don't take much from them at all), i guess it looked that way given the timing off the post but i was more thinking out loud.

My basis for my concern is Matic likes to take chances sometimes and press very very high to win the ball, it has high reward like against Arsenal but every now and again he doesn't win the ball like when Delph skinned him just before his winner vs us, this ain't a bad thing on Matic i think he is the best DM we have had since Maka im just saying due to Nemanja's proactive game there will be a few instances were he gets caught out and Cesc will be the only one protecting the back 4.

Also i think Matic is underrated attacking wise, he has good passing (see assist for Salah vs Arsenal) and has devastating bursts forward in him (that run and dribble at Anfield a little taster, as well as his assist for again Salah vs Stoke).And I fear in a pivot with Cesc, Matic might get restricted due to Fabregas not being the best defensively.

I personally think the best for this team would be 4 3 3 with Matic, Ramires and Cesc (offers balance but the only downside is that would mean an almost certain casualty in AM but that's the nature of the beast) with Rami being the main holder, I really believe Matic could be our box to box general, would be such a shame to see him restricted.

I hope im wrong and Matic and Cesc partnership does turn out to be as good in practice as it is on paper, but im not sure.

(Styles brought this subject up a few weeks back and he explained it a lot better than i am now)

Personally I disagree with almost everything (it happens )

Comparing what Matic and Cesc both offer going forward and passing makes it very clear about who among the two should be sacrificed.

Including Ramires in any capacity that isn't against big teams, once upon a time and not even in the pivot, but as an AM, is a big no to me. You're destroying everything to afford a player that doesn't play that well as a #5. Ramires, with all his problems and limitations, suits better #8. As a wing and as a DM he's just terrible imo. He works well as a B2B, but that's it. The thing is that when we play him as a 'winger' his main responsibility is still defending and then running.

The moment we put him in the team our pass quality drops considerably. I can't get over his 50% pass accuracy during one of the WC matches. That's atrocious. So why should we sacrifice our whole transition to accommodate a player that doesn't even play that well as #5?

So even if Matic is underrated for his passing and vision (he is) Cesc is far better, so he should be given the role of providing us with that. Matic can hold position if he's asked to, not only can but will. It's his style, but Mourinho has the team in his hands and if he asks him to be more reactive or to hold position he will. I'm just not sure it's going to be needed.

If we want to give a bit more freedom for Matic to go ahead in a 4-3-3 his natural substitute has to be Mikel. van Ginkel could be down the line, but he's still a bit too flustered right now. I think Oscar or Willian with their incredible work-rate are enough to offer the team some balance in a 4-3-3 with Cesc and Matic in the pivot. We've been shaky defensively in the pre-season and maybe that's why people are so concerned about it, but I don't any of the combos made of Luiz + Lamps, Matic + Lamps, Matic + Ramires, Luiz + Ramires far superior (if superior at all) in offering coverage to our defense than Matic + Cesc would. Luiz didn't hold much position, Lamps had ups and downs, Ramires had shockers in the second half of the season quite often. Still we had a great defensive system last season, Cesc isn't as slow and as bad defending as some assume to the point it'll expose our defense or jeopardize the system. And for the tougher matches, when he could be a detractor, we either move him higher in the pitch or to the bench. I have little doubt Ramires won't play those matches, but always as an 'AM' with two pivot players behind him.

Also people should be aware that Mourinho's plan wasn't to be as passive as we were last year. He made adjustments in the team, changed the approach around December to adapt to our limitations - technical, mental and human. We lacked key players, we lacked a winning mentality and some of players weren't as technical as they should. Now it's different (as long as Costa plays all matches) and I'm sure he'll adopt a more aggressive style. Depending on how the progress to move to this more aggressive style goes we'll be using Ramires more or less, but his idea, I'm absolutely sure, is to find a way to balance the team having Cesc playing in the pivot. It could even be Ramires as you suggested, but in that case I guess he'd be either the second or even the third midfielder, there's no way he'd be the most defensive midfielder at all.

We'll have to wait and see, but changes in how we approach games and how we're set up should be expected. We didn't make those surgical signings just so we could keep the tactics and just improve mentally and technically. That tactics we used for most part of last year weren't even his plan A tactics anyway. He had to adapt along the way.

[Myself 793]

barbara will you marry me?

[Dion 2,476]

With schürrle and willian back tomorrow we shouldn't have to see torres on the wings anymore.

Replacing a young striker who has proven he can score in this league with someone almost 40 is also not a sign of good business. Today showed we need to have a viable option to come off the bench in the striker position.

Matic is amazing.

I think for Lukaku, Costa was more of a problem than Drogba. If he's afraid of competition with a 36 years old Drogba and fucking Torres, God help him. He left because unless he performed significantly better than Costa, he wouldn't be getting a lot of game time. The choice has never been between Lukaku and Drogba.

[Dion 2,476]

Fair enough, tbh i wasn't even basing it on pre season games (i don't take much from them at all), i guess it looked that way given the timing off the post but i was more thinking out loud.

My basis for my concern is Matic likes to take chances sometimes and press very very high to win the ball, it has high reward like against Arsenal but every now and again he doesn't win the ball like when Delph skinned him just before his winner vs us, this ain't a bad thing on Matic i think he is the best DM we have had since Maka im just saying due to Nemanja's proactive game there will be a few instances were he gets caught out and Cesc will be the only one protecting the back 4.

Also i think Matic is underrated attacking wise, he has good passing (see assist for Salah vs Arsenal) and has devastating bursts forward in him (that run and dribble at Anfield a little taster, as well as his assist for again Salah vs Stoke).And I fear in a pivot with Cesc, Matic might get restricted due to Fabregas not being the best defensively.

I personally think the best for this team would be 4 3 3 with Matic, Ramires and Cesc (offers balance but the only downside is that would mean an almost certain casualty in AM but that's the nature of the beast) with Rami being the main holder, I really believe Matic could be our box to box general, would be such a shame to see him restricted.

I hope im wrong and Matic and Cesc partnership does turn out to be as good in practice as it is on paper, but im not sure.

(Styles brought this subject up a few weeks back and he explained it a lot better than i am now)

What you said is all true. But it is kind of the same situation as City has in Fernandinho and Yaya. Fernandinho is by no means bad offensively, he's quite good actually - has good passing, speed and a good long shot - but Yaya is simply better, therefore Fernandinho's attacking instincts must be restrained because Yaya will be bombing forward here and there. If we play Matic Cesc the same should apply - Matic should tone down the risks he's taking and be more conservative with his positioning to allow Fabregas to be offensive. The holding CM will always get restricted in favour of the other. I've always said 4 3 3 would be better for us too - although not with Ramires there, but supposing we do play 4 2 3 1, Mat - Cesc isn't a certain recipe for disaster if done right. I think it could work very well - and because the pressure is lower when playing in the pivot, misplaced passes should be even fewer for Fab there - unless they deploy an AM to specifically chase Fab there, he would impact and control the game a lot better than playing as a #10.

And the evidence we have to this moment is that Fabregas has performed better as #8 than as #10 in the pre-season.

[dee25 1,044]

There's this striker at Lille. 30 goals and 9 assists in 61 league starts. Also capable of playing out wide. He might make a good option..

Impressive numbers, but what other strikers does Lilie have besides Kalo.........oh

[Special Juan 27,103]

Just for perspective purposes people......Napoli beat Barcelona 1-0 yesterday and Bayern lost to MLS All Stars 2-1.

[Stats 6,980]

Just for perspective purposes people......Napoli beat Barcelona 1-0 yesterday and Bayern lost to MLS All Stars 2-1.

Although I don't think pre-season means much, Napoli are a very good team and Messi and Neymar are still away. No shae in losing to Napoli. Bayern played a team made up of the best players in America whose fitness levels are much better than Bayern currently but while I don't think/hope the loss to Bremen will impact us in anyway it certainly shows Mourinho has things to work on because while they may have started their preperations a week or 2 before us, they are quite an inferior side to us.

[Special Juan 27,103]

Although I don't think pre-season means much, Napoli are a very good team and Messi and Neymar are still away. No shae in losing to Napoli. Bayern played a team made up of the best players in America whose fitness levels are much better than Bayern currently but while I don't think/hope the loss to Bremen will impact us in anyway it certainly shows Mourinho has things to work on because while they may have started their preperations a week or 2 before us, they are quite an inferior side to us.

I think a lot of teams have a lot to work on. We were also without some key players so we can also raise that point. The post was aimed at those who went into meltdown after the weekend, not only that but to show we aren't the only team losing friendly matches and maybe, just maybe ease down with the over reaction.