Best CM Pairing?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Regarding Oscar, I think he can play as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3 (which isn't much different than the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1) but not in the pivot. Oscar for me is perfect for the number 10 role. He likes to drop deep to receive the ball, he has an excellent eye for a pass and he's an absolute workhorse. He chases the ball well and harasses the opposition holding midfielder/play maker and can drop to help out the pivot as well. But the pivot is a completely different role. He won't be able to run with the ball, he won't be able to play around the box where he's at his creative best so you would be restricting his best assets. Defensively in the pivot, he will need to be a bit stronger to fight off opposition. He will also need to stay disciplined, mark areas instead of players, and block channels and passing angles instead of trying to nick the ball like he currently does. I don't think he can do that.

I think this "urge" to play Oscar in the pivot comes because everyone is trying to fit all the attacking players we have into one formation, but you have to realize that that won't happen.

David Luiz will improve our transition and distribution imo and make up for partially for our CM distribution - which is still our biggest problem in the pivot.

Luiz provides much better distribution from CB. At CM he looses the ball way too much because he has much less time and space on the ball. As a CM, his distribution is at best average but as a CB his ball distribution is absolutely world-class.

[Barbara 15,149]

Luiz provides much better distribution from CB. At CM he looses the ball way too much because he has much less time and space on the ball. As a CM, his distribution is at best average but as a CB his ball distribution is absolutely world-class.

I never meant for him to move to the CM position. I meant as a CB he'll make up for the poor distribution from our CM. I edited my post to make it clear, as you made me see that maybe I was implying I want him playing as a CM - which I don't.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I never meant for him to move to the CM position. I meant as a CB he'll make up for the poor distribution from our CM.

Apologies, then

Btw, JT is not bad at ball distribution either. In fact, I'd say he's incredibly good. Doesn't attempt as many long balls as DL, but his accuracy with them is unreal.

[Ollie 4,400]

I still believe David Luiz is our best option for the CM spot because of how he can defend and attack and has great strength and battling qualities. Against Bayern we really lacked quality going from back to front. Luiz and Ramires for me all day long.

[xPetrCechx 13,546]

Lampard/Essien-Ramires

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I still believe David Luiz is our best option for the CM spot because of how he can defend and attack and has great strength and battling qualities. Against Bayern we really lacked quality going from back to front. Luiz and Ramires for me all day long.

Luiz was terrible at CM against any half-decent opposition last season. He's too aggressive in defense which leads to players getting past him too often, he leaves massive gaps between the lines and his passing accuracy was terrible for a pivot player.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Can anyone explain exactly why Oscar can't play in the pivot?

[Barbara 15,149]

I still believe David Luiz is our best option for the CM spot because of how he can defend and attack and has great strength and battling qualities. Against Bayern we really lacked quality going from back to front. Luiz and Ramires for me all day long.

I like him there as well, but I think it's the same situation as Oscar... you're moving the guy from the position he excels and it's his natural to a position that while he can do really well, doesn't compare to his production in his natural position. I think we need to have the players where they give us the best results, and for me Luiz does it in the CB and Oscar in the CAM. They could move there when we have problems in CM in a match or two, but I don't want to move them there permanently because it feels like a waste.

We can benefit of their special skills (Luiz passing and running and Oscar defending) in their natural positions more than in the alternative exactly because they offer something others don't.

So having a CB like Luiz with his vision of the pitch and his teammates and his good medium/long pass is a competitive advantage others don't have. If he moves to the CM a lot of CM's have it and many of them better than him, so comparing to our opposition we'll have an okay guy there. The same with Oscar as a CAM. His work-rate doesn't compare to any other CAM I can name now. Of course tons of CAMs defend as well, but not to the extent (and quality) Oscar does. And it's a differential compared to other teams because instead of tackling and recovering the ball in the second third, sometimes he'll do it in the last third and get us a fulminate and unexpected attack. It's almost like counter-attack except that it can't be a counter if it's already in the opposition's defense.

I think those aspects - having a guy with great skills that aren't common in the position - is the biggest competitive differential Luiz and Oscar offer respectively as CB and CAM.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Can anyone explain exactly why Oscar can't play in the pivot?

Regarding Oscar, I think he can play as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3 (which isn't much different than the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1) but not in the pivot. Oscar for me is perfect for the number 10 role. He likes to drop deep to receive the ball, he has an excellent eye for a pass and he's an absolute workhorse. He chases the ball well and harasses the opposition holding midfielder/play maker and can drop to help out the pivot as well. But the pivot is a completely different role. He won't be able to run with the ball, he won't be able to play around the box where he's at his creative best so you would be restricting his best assets. Defensively in the pivot, he will need to be a bit stronger to fight off opposition. He will also need to stay disciplined, mark areas instead of players, and block channels and passing angles instead of trying to nick the ball like he currently does. I don't think he can do that.

I think this "urge" to play Oscar in the pivot comes because everyone is trying to fit all the attacking players we have into one formation, but you have to realize that that won't happen.

[OneMoSalah 8,614]

Ramires - Mikel

Mikel - van Ginkel

Ramires - van Ginkel

seem the best fits based on their playing styles.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Regarding Oscar, I think he can play as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3 (which isn't much different than the number 10 role in a 4-2-3-1) but not in the pivot. Oscar for me is perfect for the number 10 role. He likes to drop deep to receive the ball, he has an excellent eye for a pass and he's an absolute workhorse. He chases the ball well and harasses the opposition holding midfielder/play maker and can drop to help out the pivot as well. But the pivot is a completely different role. He won't be able to run with the ball, he won't be able to play around the box where he's at his creative best so you would be restricting his best assets. Defensively in the pivot, he will need to be a bit stronger to fight off opposition. He will also need to stay disciplined, mark areas instead of players, and block channels and passing angles instead of trying to nick the ball like he currently does. I don't think he can do that.

I think this "urge" to play Oscar in the pivot comes because everyone is trying to fit all the attacking players we have into one formation, but you have to realize that that won't happen.

Luiz provides much better distribution from CB. At CM he looses the ball way too much because he has much less time and space on the ball. As a CM, his distribution is at best average but as a CB his ball distribution is absolutely world-class.

De Bruyne checks all boxes for me as CM in the pivot and exceptionally well as the CM in a 4-3-3 formation.

Luiz as a CM should only be employed if we are chasing a game. Remember Villa last season away?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

De Bruyne checks all boxes for me as CM in the pivot and exceptionally well as the CM in a 4-3-3 formation.

I agree about KDB and he did play in the pivot some games for Bremen last season and I think he did fairly well. But I'd still prefer him as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

I agree about KDB and he did play in the pivot some games for Bremen last season and I think he did fairly well. But I'd still prefer him as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3.

Yea. We will be lethal with Rami at the centre flanked by Oscar and KDB as more advanced midfielders.

[Stingray 9,441]

I agree about KDB and he did play in the pivot some games for Bremen last season and I think he did fairly well. But I'd still prefer him as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3.

Yea. We will be lethal with Rami at the centre flanked by Oscar and KDB as more advanced midfielders.

This would be true.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Yea. We will be lethal with Rami at the centre flanked by Oscar and KDB as more advanced midfielders.

Not sure about that. If you're playing with only one deep CM, I think that it can't be Rami.

[Kojo 4,676]

For me, Ramires is currently our best CM. Closest thing we currently have to world class. In his natural box-to-box role, that is. His pace and stamina are incredible, his bursts from midfield can upset any defense and his delivery at top speed is out out of this world. In the holding role that he's been playing so far however, he's very average. Good enough against the likes of Hull but not nearly against United or Bayern.

Lampard is still a match winner. His movement and runs into the box are better than any striker we currently have, but the problem is that he doesn't have the stamina to play box-to-box anymore and his defensive contribution is almost non-existent. At his age, I would have liked to see him play as the most advanced CM in a 4-3-3, but with the likes of KDB and Oscar, I find that unlikely to happen. In the pivot, he can get by passes way too easily. But I think he can still be a massive asset against smaller teams who sit deep where he won't have much defensive responsibilities and can instead focus on his offensive contribution.

MVG looks like an excellent prospect. The defensive side to his game is especially impressive (even if a bit too aggressive at times). But he's far from the finished article. His passing and movement still need a bit of work from what I saw. I'd love for him to get some starts, but I expect him to make more appearances off the bench. He can use all the experience he can get and he'll only get better from here on.

Mikel is currently our only genuine holding midfielder. He adds stability to the team and gives Ramires the freedom to go forward while plugging the gap between midfield and defense. His passing is incredibly accurate and his ball retention skills are by far the best in our team which gives the back four an outlet to get the ball to instead of having to play a lot of long balls. I don't think he can play the role he does with Nigeria here in the PL where the tempo is a lot faster and he won't get as much time and space on the ball.

Essien, I think, is a good squad player. He obviously doesn't have the physical attributes that he once thrived on, but he can still do a decent job. I think we will benefit from his versatility and experience this season.

So, to sum up, I think Ramires-Mikel is our best CM pairing just like it was last season. It is defensively solid, leaves very few gaps and offers smooth and calm distribution of the ball while playing to the strengths of both Mikel and Ramires who, imo, our best two CMs.

Ramires is nowhere near world class.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Ramires is nowhere near world class.

I disagree. He's not world-class, but he's pretty close, imo. He proved that in our CL winning season. In terms of box-to-box midfielders, there are very few better.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Ramires is nowhere near world class.

Ok, then Chelsea are a championship side