No.10 Role

[didierforever 7,349]

Well, first of all, I didn't mention the FA Cup because someone just as glorious as Mata isn't FA Cup profile, is he? I mean, that's the highlight of his career? Deciding FA Cups against the likes of Spurs?

Second of all, of course DDA and Petr weren't the only ones, it was a massive collective effort that this team seems to only make in situations like those (which bothers me btw). They were the main two though, not the only ones. Who won Bayern UCL title? Or took Dormund to the final playing at the same level as Bayern? Or maybe a fairer question, who could Bayern, ManUtd, Barcelona, Dortmund really count on when things got tough? Who's that guy that made a goal happen when the team just couldn't make it happen. Or that guy that made everything easy?

Third of all, my argument about Schurrle, Kevin and Willian is that they're better wingers than Oscar (which isn't that difficult to find, really). I never said they were better than Mata or more suited to Mata to the wings. Although someone (maybe even you) made a more than relevant point. If Mata is a liability (in José's head) because of his inability to defend in the middle, how come can he be better in the wing? It makes no sense as normally the fastest players go to the flanks and Mata is really one of our slowest players (the slower by a mile among the AM's)

I hate diminishing Mata's importance, but if someone who had been in coma for the last two years come here and read this thread they would think Mourinho is dismissing the best CAM since Maradona and that Chelsea had won at least a treble in 2011/12 or 12/13 and that we outplayed the opposition while doing so because a genius solved us the matches. I mean I'm not too sold in Mourinho's plan (the big pic one, the short term I am) - no one is giving him the benefit of the doubt [which is okay, you give faith and support to whoever you want, for the reasons you want], but the main argument you guys use to say Mourinho is crazy is that Mata has been our best player in the past two seasons when we had weak seasons. We continued to suck against better competition and not once in big, big stage matches I remember Mata doing something that saved us. We were a level or two behind all big teams we played, UCL, EPL, SuperCup and we struggled with a certain kind of opposition (weaker opposition) because we couldn't find a way to go through their tight defences. Is it all Mata's fault? No, of course not, but what exactly are you guys giving him credit for? 12 assists last season in EPL when only 7 or 8 didn't come from set pieces (if I'm not wrong - I remember reading it somewhere). I'd understand all the buzz if the guy had raped the oppositions like some guys in big teams do (van Persie, Robben, Ribery, Iniesta, Xavi, etc), but he hasn't - maybe except the FA Cup if you want him to have some credit. When things got tight we had to rely on Lampard, Cech, Drogba and Ramires to get things done more than we relied on Mata.

Mourinho could be wrong - chances are he will as he's betting on a boy (Hazard) and relying on another boy (Oscar) to make the transition to something he envisions as the Chelsea of the future, the Chelsea that can be at the same level as those 4 big teams in the world now. He's objective and Roman's is that. They don't want to only win UCL, they want to it by being the side that deserved winning or that many saw winning it from months prior. A real contender. They want us to be a force to be reckoned with at the EPL, UCL and else. But he's taking a huge risk by making two boys the foundation of that when one of them is only opening the way for the other. They aren't the two guys that will shine, one will pave the way for the other.

Again I think Mata is a better player than Oscar (I have been stating this since the beginning)- Oscar might be more useful to us and overall he's more complete - but Mata is still a better player at least when you look at him as a classic #10. He's just not the god Chelsea fans make him out to be. Spaniards don't rate him that high - unless they're Chelsea fans - and I'll tell you what, in terms of worshiping their own, there's only one country that comes ahead of Argentina and that's Spain (they're even annoying at many times thinking they're the best thing on earth) - many spaniard fans favor 2-3 others AM in the squad ahead of Mata (not CAMs). They agree he's a great player, but they don't see him as this guy I read here. In other teams a guy like him - who's unfit now - would fight for the position and it'll be normal. Here is not only an aberration, but also a blasphemy. I don't get it. If he carried his level, I'd understand 100x better, but he's been sucking monkey balls (to his own levels)...

first of all, what u want is totally unfair. u want mata to single handedly go from our own D to the opposition box to make a move?? i mean seriously? those barcelona and bayern munich matches were a one-off. no team would ever by playing THAT defensive a football ever. plus mata was not our go to man then, DD was. u cant expect a possession based player to go out and have a field day in a sysytem which was set up predominantly to defend for their lives. and even then i would say mata did his job defensively. he dint loiter on ahead and kept chelsea's shape. if u still want to argue about mata's role in CL campaign, i first want u to tell me which of the teams u meantioned above played the way we did. if u want to judge mata judge him on his performances in big-matches over the 2 years not those 3 matches which were a one-off and would never happen again.

is kagawa a winger? is jordan henderson a winger? NO. but they play on the wings to suit their team. i simply dont understand this "OSCAR CANT AND SHOULD NOT PLAY ON THE WINGS" ploy. our best moments last year happened with playing hazard-mata-oscar. they work together. they have that chemistry, that "x-effect". just because oscar individually was not out of the world when he played on the wings, does not mean he should not play there. CHELSEA WON, when he played and that is what is the most important.

is that supposed to be funny? we dont have a striker, we dont have a good combo for a pivot, we have a defence which is led in most matches by a time bomb who can go off at any time, and yet u want JUAN MATA to single handedly go out and rape opposition. i cant believe what i actually just read. i mean how biased could you be? i have had the mata vs oscar argument with so many people now, but i have not come across something this bad all this time. mata was a guiding light in a dark tunnel. he was someone we could depend to make us go over the crossing line, even if just, but he did that. his class is what showed us apart when needed.i mean look at his records against united, arsenal, tottenham and yet u r crying over his chelsea not able to dominate all oppositions? what is he supposed to do? become superman and somehow fly with the ball and put in the back of the net. even in the last 2 transition years, chelsea have ended up winning UCL, FA and EL and we OWE a big chunk of our success to a little guy name JUAN MATA.

just because oscar has a defensive edge over mata does not make him a 100% starter in this CHELSEA side either. people are pissed because, jose has said that he looks at oscar as his no.1 no.10 and mata would have to fight for his place in the team and yet jose continues to play mata on the wings where as u said, he is a liability. people are pissed because, no way has oscar deserved to be given that tag. i mean look at our performances without juan. they are abysmall. people in the team should know their roles and in the last match or the last half-an hour against everton, it truly seemed our players have no idea of what they are supposed to be doing on the pitch. with mata evrything looks simpler. every1 seems to play better and there is far more cohesion in the team. also i dont care how high any1 rates mata or they dont rate mata. he works for us. and that is the most important thing.

[Stingray 9,441]

And off we go ...

u cant expect a possession based player to go out and have a field day in a sysytem which was set up predominantly to defend for their lives

This is exactly it, really. And this is a choice Mou is making - either you change your system or you change the players. It is really clear what it will be. I don't now if I like it though. If it works it can be good - fast, direct, compact play with good flanks and defensively sound but now it just shows we aren't there in a long shot. And then it is ugly to see imo.

[Cech's helmet 220]

All I can say is I'm going to miss seeing Oscar, Mata and Hazard playing together. they weren't really crashing opponents, but it was their first year playing together. with Hazard and Oscar settling in, this trio could have been deadly.

We have to settle for the likes of Schurrle/Willian/KDB because "they track back" this is just after a few days Jose saying we want to play positive football/change our style lmao

[Weckerz 3,781]

All I can say is I'm going to miss seeing Oscar, Mata and Hazard playing together. they weren't really crashing opponents, but it was their first year playing together. with Hazard and Oscar settling in, this trio could have been deadly.

We have to settle for the likes of Schurrle/Willian/KDB because "they track back" this is just after a few days Jose saying we want to play positive football/change our style lmao

You're talking as if Schurrle/Willian/KDB are some random scrubs

[didierforever 7,349]

And off we go ...

This is exactly it, really. And this is a choice Mou is making - either you change your system or you change the players. It is really clear what it will be. I don't now if I like it though. If it works it can be good - fast, direct, compact play with good flanks and defensively sound but now it just shows we aren't there in a long shot. And then it is ugly to see imo.

well, my point was for a completely different argument, but is makes sense here too.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Wel Oscar, ok!

But Kevin actually layed in attacking pivot role and I personally think he is good at it - even with to potential to be better there than on the flanks. So it is really not a FIFA thing, it is just that a lot on here haven't seen him play there and think it would be a mistake.

Imo he could take the role Lamps now has (so he doesn't have to play all the games).

I've seen Kevin play there and even said myself that his future could be there, but I find it annoying when people say it just so they can cram another attacking midfielder in the team. Kevin in the pivot is a different debate, imo.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

All I can say is I'm going to miss seeing Oscar, Mata and Hazard playing together. they weren't really crashing opponents, but it was their first year playing together. with Hazard and Oscar settling in, this trio could have been deadly.

We have to settle for the likes of Schurrle/Willian/KDB because "they track back" this is just after a few days Jose saying we want to play positive football/change our style lmao

Hmm tracking back is a part of positive football. Pedro, Sanchez, Ribery, Robben all do it. What you on about again?

[Clevemayer 764]

sorry spains rate silva... mata f*cks with silva all day long and makes him (her ) his bitch.

MAta to start in one of the next two games... Mou wants to provocate mata to take responsebility for definsive dutys...

in the long term there is nothing about this im nearly sure:

---------------Striker

Hazard---Oscar/Mata----KDB/Willian

--- ----------------Oscar/KDB

-------------DM

Oscar will never be our ten he is a CM and not a DM... ppl just twist this I think... he isn't good enough as number 10 in my opinion... in the future if nothing unpredicted happnes there is nothing stronger then this line up for us...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiL0hMLTaxs

"Mata cannot do that, he doesn't have the physical strength" Iniesta and Xavi are strong?

"strength, nor the defensive abilities to do so." Bayern Midfield at times Schweinsteiger(pivot)-kroos-Thiago(pivot). They aren't strong, fast or defensive... I talked more about this in this topic.

"Jose wants the number ten to drop to receive the ball and then be the one that moves the ball to the wings or strikers" Did you think that for watching Oscar playing or by actually listening to Mourinho's words? Because if It's by the first... It is just one of the characteristics of Oscar. He drops deep all the time to have more time and space to think the game(he is bad at receiving the ball with his back towards the goal) just like in Brazil with Internacional and São Paulo, with the NT and now Chelsea.

"He can't drop and link-up with the pivot and fullbacks like Jose wants because he's very uncomfortable with his back to goal." LOL WHAT? Where do you think that one will receive the ball with his backs to the goal in the majority of times? Deeper with least(fewer or least?)defensive players, with more space, in the start of plays and far away of the defenders... Or at the CAM position in which you are up front and have to look to your own field and goal in order to receive a pass, in which you have good defenders at your back crazy to take the ball and you are the key player?

"This isn't FIFA, players don't have perfect movement off the ball even if they're playing out of position. You can't squeeze all out AMs into the same formation, so please stop trying to." Well, Pep tried it at bayern... Lahm and thiago at pivot and Martinez at CB. It isn't impossible, why not try the DLP? Schweinsteiger started as a fullback, then side midfielder and then DLP(pivot). We'll never know if we don't try... And Hell, Oscar drops deeper by himself... He even play better at it. He is a DLP.

I have absolutely no idea What Xavi, Iniesta or Kroos have anything to do with the discussion here; they play in a different team with a different system that does not require them to do what our system does.

I know this is what Jose wants by watching what Oscar and KDB did in that role in preseason and in the first 6 games, and even by what Mata has tried, but failed, to do when he has played that role. Why doe he want that? Because, like I said, our biggest problem last season was ball transition and this solves it.

I meant that Mata is not comfortable when he has to move with his back to goal when the team is in possession. He's very unfamiliar with the role and his movement becomes ineffective.

Pep's team play a "free-formation", they don't really have specific formations. The argument for Oscar playing in the pivot because he usually drops deep is the same as that for Luiz to play in midfield because he usually goes forward. Just because a player drifts to a certain area during the game, does not necessarily mean that he has the skills to play in that position, in fact, he is probably being effective in that area because he is coming from a different position. To continue with the Luiz comparison, see our goal against Basel: Luiz was able to create space with his forward dribble by forcing a Basel player out of position because he was playing at CB; if he were playing at CM, he would have been marked without displacing the defensive shape of Basel. Same goes for Oscar. He is effective when he drops deep because he gives us the numerical advantage and forces, with his movemnt, a couple of players out of position. And still, his job there is completely different than the actual pivot players. Take the defensive duties, for example: When Oscar drops, he chases the ball around and harasses players while pivot players have to have much more tactical awareness and block areas and passing lanes instead of players; they have to show discipline and and not commit to challenges so they don't create gaps in the defense unlike what Oscar usually does.

So, No, I don't think Oscar can play in the pivot, nor can we afford to give him the time he needs to adapt there.

[Clevemayer 764]

sorry @Barbara

don't know what you're on about, but Mata is a wonderfull player 5 times the player silva is and silva plays so what? Ask @Magic Lamps, he knows how it is when the worlds best footballplayer maybe second best plays the second fiddle to somebody else just because of the preferrence of the nationalteam-fans.

Just look at what Mata does and to other OMF in this leage... in his first season everybody said it was a freak season and it was just because we played to his strengthes that he was better then silva in most ppls opinion... in his second he just repeatet his first season and was actuall BETTER... I'm sure Jose will play Oscar as CAMF/CMF and Mata will be OMF I've statet my point in the Basel-Match-Thread...

[kaka 3]

just mata . he is better than oscar and ozil and every CAM in world

[jonaaibosk 191]

If I'm being totally honest as much as I love Mata, he's not really done the business on the park so far this season, whereas Oscar has. How long is Mata going to be allowed to live off of previous seasons reputations? He has to prove that he belongs on the pitch, he's not done that this season so far.

I hope his form returns and soon, but it's not the end of the world if we have guys legitimately playing better than him. The starting XI should be picked on form, not reputation

[communicate 2,703]

I don't think it's a matter of who's better, but rather a matter of inability; that is Mata's inability to play the number ten role that Jose wants in the team right now. The role has changed immensely since last season under Rafa where we were basically playing a 4-4-1-1 with Mata as a second striker.

First, Jose wants the number ten to play like a central midfielder in defense. He wants the 4-2-3-1 to turn into 4-3-3 in defense. Mata cannot do that, he doesn't have the physical strength, nor the defensive abilities to do so. Jose also wants the #10 to be the player chases the ball and put pressure on the opposition's deepest midfielder.

Secondly, and I'm really surprised that this has not been mentioned because, for me, this is the most important aspect, Jose wants the number ten to drop to receive the ball and then be the one that moves the ball to the wings or strikers. Last season, all Mata had to do was sit in the final third and wait for the ball to come to him. He can't drop and link-up with the pivot and fullbacks like Jose wants because he's very uncomfortable with his back to goal. The mistake which led to the corner that Basel scored from is an example of that. Last season, our biggest issue imo was our inability to move the ball from defense to attack and playing Oscar in the #10 role practically solves that.That's why, for me, he has to be first choice.

As for Mata, I think he will need to play on the wing. Yes, he doesn't have the pace to be effective there on the counter attack, but most of our games we will be dominating possession and he could be vital for the team by providing a creative spark. On the left wing, he is capable of proving some much needed width in some games. Oscar and KDB should be our two number tens, imo.

And as for Jose's comments, he knows exactly what he's doing. He's trying to motivate Mata who is a professional and will only try to work harder because of those comments.

Oh, and can we pleeease stop putting Oscar (and KDB for that matter) in the pivot for goodness' sake?! This isn't FIFA, players don't have perfect movement off the ball even if they're playing out of position. You can't squeeze all out AMs into the same formation, so please stop trying to.

Perfect post. It is exactly what Mou want from his no 10.

My concern is that I don't think Mata can adapt to that winger role. For all his excellent technical skill, physically mata is very poor. Hence, if his role is just to come in against packed defense, I don't think he will stay at chelsea.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Perfect post. It is exactly what Mou want from his no 10.

My concern is that I don't think Mata can adapt to that winger role. For all his excellent technical skill, physically mata is very poor. Hence, if his role is just to come in against packed defense, I don't think he will stay at chelsea.

I think that, unless something major happens unexpectedly, Mata will leave either in Jan or next summer.

[Barbara 15,149]

first of all, what u want is totally unfair. u want mata to single handedly go from our own D to the opposition box to make a move?? i mean seriously? those barcelona and bayern munich matches were a one-off. no team would ever by playing THAT defensive a football ever. plus mata was not our go to man then, DD was. u cant expect a possession based player to go out and have a field day in a sysytem which was set up predominantly to defend for their lives. and even then i would say mata did his job defensively. he dint loiter on ahead and kept chelsea's shape. if u still want to argue about mata's role in CL campaign, i first want u to tell me which of the teams u meantioned above played the way we did. if u want to judge mata judge him on his performances in big-matches over the 2 years not those 3 matches which were a one-off and would never happen again.

is kagawa a winger? is jordan henderson a winger? NO. but they play on the wings to suit their team. i simply dont understand this "OSCAR CANT AND SHOULD NOT PLAY ON THE WINGS" ploy. our best moments last year happened with playing hazard-mata-oscar. they work together. they have that chemistry, that "x-effect". just because oscar individually was not out of the world when he played on the wings, does not mean he should not play there. CHELSEA WON, when he played and that is what is the most important.

is that supposed to be funny? we dont have a striker, we dont have a good combo for a pivot, we have a defence which is led in most matches by a time bomb who can go off at any time, and yet u want JUAN MATA to single handedly go out and rape opposition. i cant believe what i actually just read. i mean how biased could you be? i have had the mata vs oscar argument with so many people now, but i have not come across something this bad all this time. mata was a guiding light in a dark tunnel. he was someone we could depend to make us go over the crossing line, even if just, but he did that. his class is what showed us apart when needed.i mean look at his records against united, arsenal, tottenham and yet u r crying over his chelsea not able to dominate all oppositions? what is he supposed to do? become superman and somehow fly with the ball and put in the back of the net. even in the last 2 transition years, chelsea have ended up winning UCL, FA and EL and we OWE a big chunk of our success to a little guy name JUAN MATA.

just because oscar has a defensive edge over mata does not make him a 100% starter in this CHELSEA side either. people are pissed because, jose has said that he looks at oscar as his no.1 no.10 and mata would have to fight for his place in the team and yet jose continues to play mata on the wings where as u said, he is a liability. people are pissed because, no way has oscar deserved to be given that tag. i mean look at our performances without juan. they are abysmall. people in the team should know their roles and in the last match or the last half-an hour against everton, it truly seemed our players have no idea of what they are supposed to be doing on the pitch. with mata evrything looks simpler. every1 seems to play better and there is far more cohesion in the team. also i dont care how high any1 rates mata or they dont rate mata. he works for us. and that is the most important thing.

mate, at the end of the day, I don't want the last two years' Chelsea - Mata or no Mata - because that's not a competitive team - the numbers tell me that. I think we were much more deserving to win the UCL in 2008 for example than in 2012. Titles won like that happen once in decades. It's so true that we had 2-4 opportunities and either lost the F or SF.

I don't know if Mourinho's changes will get us to a better place - as I said, it's risky. All of you can seem to want the maintenance of Rafa's, Robbie's and ABV's systems. I don't. All of you think that Mata is the answer to our problems - I'm not so sure because in two years he failed to be. Finishing sixth in the national league shows how we lacked competing against not only the big dogs, but the second tier as well. Finishing 14 points behind ManU and struggling unnecessary to finish 3rd ahead of Arsenal and Tottenham is too little for the investment we have in my opinion. And in neither instances we played a defensive system, in both instances we failed as a team and blaming everyone and making one player our golden boy makes no sense. The fault is always everyone else except there. Let's all watch together what Özil can make to that Arsenal team. Then maybe people will understand.

And just so we are clear because I don't know if things get lost in my posts because they're long (and I'm a babbler) or if my English comes into the way, the point was never Oscar x Mata. How many times do I need to repeat the same bullshit in bold, giant letters, underline and italic? I think Mata is a better player FFS. I just don't think he's half good you guys think, don't think he can carry a team and it makes NO SENSE whatsoever to have Oscar playing in the team as a winger - so we can accommodate Mata in the CAM - when he's pathetic in the wing and we have 3 very capable wingers in the team. Just bench Oscar. I have no problem benching Oscar because I've also said at least a couple of times that although I agree with Mou that he's been our best player this season, he's been far from brilliant and truth is he wouldn't lead us to any better place than Mata did although he would give us more stability comparing the same starting XI replacing Mata for him in the CAM position.

Now, before I'm kicked out from Mata's cult for blasphemy, I'll rest my case. I hope he recovers, we need him to recover, but he wasn't, isn't and won't ever be the kind of guy that will carry a team on his own, reason why I think the team shouldn't be built around him, but him along with anyone else should adapt to a system, whatever that is. That was my point through and through and the discussion is pointless in my opinion when the numbers from a club as big as Chelsea tell us what we competed for in the last two years: FA Cup, EL and the lucky UCL.

I went to unfair extremes - which is why I said I hate diminishing him - to make people see where I was coming from. Some do, some don't. It's not about agreeing, only understanding the point I was trying to make. Whoever else want the Old Chelsea, keep it, I'll keep the change - until it makes us end 7th. When the change makes end 7th than I'll rather the 2011-2013 Chelsea.

A lot of the things you implied I meant, aren't things I meant, but the extension of some of the points I've made to try to make people understand my point. Yours has been clear since the beginning. Keep 2011-2013 Chelsea all you want. We can't get rid soon enough of that Chelsea imo, regardless of Mata, pivot, striker, Oscar, defense, etc.

CHELSEA WON, when he played and that is what is the most important.

Chelsea didn't win anything worth mentioning, mate, that's the point everyone seems to love to ignore. Unless our competition is now EL. UCL can never showcase our real capability - that much is proved when we were pathetically kicked out from the group stage as the reining champions for the first time in the history of the tournament. If that alone didn't prove how our UCL title was lucky, I don't know what else does. But as I said, I'm resting my case. I'll support this team finishing 6th. I supported this team in less promising moments of its story - although not as much as people who has been supporting it for decades as I've just completed my first decade. I don't need Chelsea to finish first - I'm not implying anyone does - and I won't support a player above the team - and that I'm implying I've been reading here...

[Clevemayer 764]

I wouldn't play a pivot with two static players next to each others... Lamps isn't this too...

I would play with a DMF a CM and an OMF and the wingers have to track back to help DMF and OMF... its nearly rafas tactics... but its the best we can do... it will get the best out of all of them and I don't see KDB as a OMF, more a CMF and a winger... when did he play as pure OMF? I must've missed that...

Mata won't leave and like I've said... as soon as Lamps is injured or makes way (thats when Mou belives KDB or Oscar can replace him) we will see that formation I've posted...

[meetdoscar 335]

Anyhow i look at it i see more points for oscar than mata. Mata has had 2 individually brilliant seasons as our no. 10.(In which our team performed poorly in the league) Which is not even his natural position in spain and seasons we came 5th(65points) and 3rd(75points) respectively, Oscar on the other hand is just having his first season as our no.10 which is his natural position in brasil. If you really care about our team and not only mata then you may only start slagging moirinho or oscar if things are going bad in december/january. It is unfortunate that instead of praising oscar's development we are putting more unwarranted pressure on the kid by demanding an automatic place for mata despite his poor form yet we say chelsea destroys young players never giving them a chance well oscar is a kid and has been given a chance by mourinho who is criticised for not playing young players, now that he does people still criticise him.

[Clevemayer 764]

I don't say don't play Oscar, I say play to his obious strenthes and play him as CM, replace our greatest ever player for this Club (lamps) with him... so how I couldn't trust in his abilitys if I say he can take LAMPS place?

I say he can play there but Mata has to get better with his backtracking and as soon as he does Mata WILL be OMF again...