Willian

[Barbara 15,149]

There's no way, situation, game size where Willian should start ahead of Cesc in the middle (supposing Cesc won't play in the pivot - his rightful and best position). Absolutely no situation. No, thanks.

Ahead of Oscar, absolutely, because he's in better form, but ahead of Cesc? Especially when we're supposed to either remove Cesc totally from the team or have him partner with Matic? Only works in small-medium teams, big teams will trounce us if we have a pivot with Cesc...

So yeah, he was poor, but he's supposedly injured, still I wouldn't have played him in the middle at all and I don't buy this story he plays better there. Willian when he's positive and smart he plays as well in the wing as in the middle. The problem is those occurrences aren't often. Having him the middle might even hurt the team more than in the wing if he doesn't have one of his rare special days.

[kalouda 23]

I would put Willian as AMF, only when Cesc plays CMF with Matic. Then Cuadrado would be the RMF, and Hazard stays on his position.

[Vybz Kartel 1,613]

We need him to impose himself on the game the way he did when he was at Shaktar when they beat us the other year, make teams think about him too not only about Hazard and Cesc, Because at the moment it seems teams are happy to see him with the ball as they know his decision making is more likely to be poor than good. He also needs to start running straight at players instead of attempting that stupid side step which no one seems to buy. This is not undermining his great defensive work which is an asset.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

There's no way, situation, game size where Willian should start ahead of Cesc in the middle. Absolutely no situation. No, thanks.

Ahead of Oscar, absolutely, because he's in better form, but ahead of Cesc? Especially when we're supposed to either remove Cesc totally from the team or have him partner with Matic? Only works in small-medium teams, big teams will trounce us if we have a pivot with Cesc...

So yeah, he was poor, but he's supposedly injured, still I wouldn't have played him in the middle at all and I don't buy this story he plays better there. Willian when he's positive and smart he plays as well in the wing as in the middle. The problem is those occurrences aren't often. Having him the middle might even hurt the team more than in the wing if he doesn't have one of his rare special days.

Absolutely ahead of Cesc, he is much better deep than up front, when he plays in the 10 he just gets shut down

Having said that Jose even against big teams should be starting him deep, maybe in 4-3-3 otherwise we are offensively a non starter.

[Barbara 15,149]

Absolutely ahead of Cesc, he is much better deep than up front, when he plays in the 10 he just gets shut down

Having said that Jose even against big teams should be starting him deep, maybe in 4-3-3 otherwise we are offensively a non starter.

Even if Cesc is way better in the pivot, in a game like yesterday for Willian to play centered, Cesc has to be benched. There's NO WAY Willian is a better #10 than Cesc is, not even close imo. With Cesc in the pitch we can always have something created for someone else, as long as he's given the minimum freedom - which he wasn't yesterday. Willian will be only able to hold up better than Cesc, but what's the point if he won't do much with the ball? Then he'll give his trademark square pass or pass back to the pivot players a few yards behind him and we're exactly where we were if Cesc was there without 1) the set-piece threat and 2) the vision. No, thanks.

Now for medium and small teams where Cesc can play in his best position, then we can play with Willian as #10.

edit: I edited my previous post because I realized it wasn't clear that overall I prefer Cesc in the pivot. I've said many times Cesc is better as a pivot player, but in games where he has to play #10 because he would expose us in the pivot - aka big teams - he either plays #10 or he's benched for Willian (or whoever else) to play there. I still believe he's our best #10 in the team even if he's way better in the pivot. But we don't have someone with his passing, vision and creativity - even as a CAM - in the team.

[Jase 43,479]

He needs to play in the middle.

Willian is like so overrated as a no.10 at the moment. He certainly isn't going to turn into some creative machine when he can't create chances on a consistent basis out wide.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

Even if Cesc is way better in the pivot, in a game like yesterday for Willian to play centered, Cesc has to be benched. There's NO WAY Willian is a better #10 than Cesc is, not even close imo. With Cesc in the pitch we can always have something created for someone else, as long as he's given the minimum freedom - which he wasn't yesterday. Willian will be only able to hold up better than Cesc, but what's the point if he won't do much with the ball? Then he'll give his trademark square pass or pass back to the pivot players a few yards behind him and we're exactly where we were if Cesc was there without 1) the set-piece threat and 2) the vision. No, thanks.

Now for medium and small teams where Cesc can play in his best position, then we can play with Willian as #10.

It could have been the illness and lack of training , which is fully understandable, but the PSG CBs and DMs completely stifled him and Costa, and I think Willian if he was supplied by Cesc who would then have more time on the ball with his pace would be able to break through better. Don't forget, square passes aren't necessarily bad, if there is space on the wing and Cuadrado and Hazard are on each side of you, nothing wrong with sticking it that way for them, or even if Cesc pulls up into a pocket of space. Willian doesn't need to be creative, he needs to upset the defence, something his workrate will accomplish better than Cesc can. Then again, in big games like I say I think we shouldn't have a #10 at all, play Fabregas in a DM-CM-DM formation where he is protected by Matic and one of Ake or Mikel who can draw his markers away, and a more end product centric Cuadrado - Costa - Hazard, then Cesc can push up when it makes sense in a false 4231 and fall back too. I'd imagine it would improve the link up between him and Costa, too.

I don't know, but Jose knows what he's doing, and so I think we'll see his line of thinking in the next lineup. At least he's beginning to rotate more, though.

[Barbara 15,149]

It could have been the illness and lack of training , which is fully understandable, but the PSG CBs and DMs completely stifled him and Costa, and I think Willian if he was supplied by Cesc who would then have more time on the ball with his pace would be able to break through better. Don't forget, square passes aren't necessarily bad, if there is space on the wing and Cuadrado and Hazard are on each side of you, nothing wrong with sticking it that way for them, or even if Cesc pulls up into a pocket of space. Willian doesn't need to be creative, he needs to upset the defence, something his workrate will accomplish better than Cesc can.

I don't know, but Jose knows what he's doing, and so I think we'll see his line of thinking in the next lineup. At least he's beginning to rotate more, though.

Cesc didn't play well, but neither did Willian. He didn't train - according to Mourinho - who also said he played with an injury against Everton.

Willian is supposedly also caring a physical issue - although Cesc was in bed for three days according to Mourinho.

So in that situation yesterday if we have Cesc in the pivot, we expose the defense - which had Cahill, so that's a walking nightmare and the only way for Willian to play CAM was benching Cesc and deploying either Cuadrado or Oscar in the wing as Cesc can't play in the wing. So we gave our best shot in terms of starters and the positions they were playing. The game play was poor though.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Willian is like so overrated as a no.10 at the moment. He certainly isn't going to turn into some creative machine when he can't create chances on a consistent basis out wide.

I'm not expecting him to be a creative genius because he isn't. His best attributes do suit that CFC number 10 role nicely though.

[LAM09 6,750]

Willian is like so overrated as a no.10 at the moment. He certainly isn't going to turn into some creative machine when he can't create chances on a consistent basis out wide.

According to some people, he will all of a sudden start to deliver in that position. Call me crazy, but I don't see it.

[Jase 43,479]

I'm not expecting him to be a creative genius because he isn't. His best attributes do suit that CFC number 10 role nicely though.

He is only suitable to play as a no.10 when we play on the counter, when there is plenty of space for him to drive into. Otherwise, he's useless in that position, especially when we play against the lesser sides.

[stroey 2,525]

He is only suitable to play as a no.10 when we play on the counter, when there is plenty of space for him to drive into. Otherwise, he's useless in that position, especially when we play against the lesser sides.

Don't think we played on the counter last season vs Stoke and this season against Everton.

[Jase 43,479]

Don't think we played on the counter last season vs Stoke and this season against Everton.

No but there were certainly spaces for us to break into, especially against a possession-based side like Everton, and that's when Willian could cause some damage.

[WNDS 502]

Willian is like so overrated as a no.10 at the moment. He certainly isn't going to turn into some creative machine when he can't create chances on a consistent basis out wide.

Very few posters who are advocating playing him at the no.10 position are actually expecting him to become some sort of creative phenomenon there (as The Skipper has already pointed out). We've observed the style of play that we appear to be trying to adopt this season and have concluded that Willian possesses the best combination of attributes for what is demanded of the player playing the AMC position in this current Chelsea side. I believe that playing Willian in the no.10 position is possibly a way to improve the general performance levels of the team as a whole, rather than simply being for the purpose of allowing Willian to improve his own displays.

Willian is far more capable of leading the press than Fabregas, he is generally steadier in possession than Oscar, he is faster than both those players (which is useful both when attacking and defending), he is a better dribbler than both of them, and he is also more capable of switching across the AM positions than Oscar and Fabregas are. For these reasons, I see him as being able to offer the team a far greater measure of stability and tactical flexibility if he is deployed at the no.10 position; if we want to play a short-passing-based possession game he will be a good fit, if we take an approach based around counter-attacking his pace is extremely useful, if we decide to park the bus completely his defensive commitment and work-rate are invaluable, if we press in an aggressive manner he is one of the players most effective at doing so.

Also, speaking of the AM more generally, I think that it is important for as many of the players in these positions as possible to have enough pace to compensate for the relatively slow Matic-Fabregas pairing behind them; a Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado line-up has this, and it certainly helps that both Willian and Cuadrado possess very good defensive work-rates as well.

[Jase 43,479]

Very few posters who are advocating playing him at the no.10 position are actually expecting him to become some sort of creative phenomenon there (as The Skipper has already pointed out). We've observed the style of play that we appear to be trying to adopt this season and have concluded that Willian possesses the best combination of attributes for what is demanded of the player playing the AMC position in this current Chelsea side. I believe that playing Willian in the no.10 position is possibly a way to improve the general performance levels of the team as a whole, rather than simply being for the purpose of allowing Willian to improve his own displays.

Do people actually believe that or are only advocating that change because Oscar has been below average and Willian (suddenly) has been in good form? I didn't see people were calling for that to happen when Oscar was doing the job well for us.

Willian is far more capable of leading the press than Fabregas, he is generally steadier in possession than Oscar, he is faster than both those players (which is useful both when attacking and defending), he is a better dribbler than both of them, and he is also more capable of switching across the AM positions than Oscar and Fabregas are. For these reasons, I see him as being able to offer the team a far greater measure of stability and tactical flexibility if he is deployed at the no.10 position; if we want to play a short-passing-based possession game he will be a good fit, if we take an approach based around counter-attacking his pace is extremely useful, if we decide to park the bus completely his defensive commitment and work-rate are invaluable, if we press in an aggressive manner he is one of the players most effective at doing so.

Some fair points made there but I don't think he's steadier in possession than Oscar. Both are average of it and prone to misplacing simple passes...unless of course, you are counting Willian passing backwards when his attempt to dribble fails. Moreover, when we come up against teams who park the bus, Willian is arguably the worst of the three. Never mind not possessing the eye to pick out teammates in tight areas, he doesn't even score enough goals (or provide enough assists) to suggest he will do a decent job in that no.10 position. Our approach changes from game to game - be on the front foot against the smaller teams and play on the counter against the bigger ones - and Willian has the qualities as the no.10 with the latter approach but not with the former.

[WNDS 502]

Do people actually believe that or are only advocating that change because Oscar has been below average and Willian (suddenly) has been in good form? I didn't see people were calling for that to happen when Oscar was doing the job well for us.

Some fair points made there but I don't think he's steadier in possession than Oscar. Both are average of it and prone to misplacing simple passes...unless of course, you are counting Willian passing backwards when his attempt to dribble fails. Moreover, when we come up against teams who park the bus, Willian is arguably the worst of the three. Never mind not possessing the eye to pick out teammates in tight areas, he doesn't even score enough goals (or provide enough assists) to suggest he will do a decent job in that no.10 position. Our approach changes from game to game - be on the front foot against the smaller teams and play on the counter against the bigger ones - and Willian has the qualities as the no.10 with the latter approach but not with the former.

For me, as I have mentioned 'ad nauseam' by this point , the main goal when selecting our starting 11 should be that they are a stable and tactically flexible unit, capable of adopting (and adapting to) a number of different playing styles. Our squad, very good though it may be, is not yet so brilliant that we can simply seek to impose our game upon any opposition that we face; almost all of us (including the manager) appear to accept this. We therefore often find ourselves forced to compromise against opposition of a certain quality, and although such pragmatism is justified, I would rather that it didn't come at the expense of almost all our attacking coherence.

Part of the reason as to why we seem so clueless in attack in such matches appears to be because Mourinho does not trust Oscar against top quality opponents, and so insists upon dropping him for Ramires (or Mikel) whilst also moving Fabregas out of the area of the pitch in which he appears to be at his most effective; this simultaneously neuters our pressing AND our ability to retain possession. If this problem arises as a result of Oscar not being trusted to play the no.10 role in most of the 'big games', then surely a better course of action to take would be to try to find a solution that allows us to field the same starting 11 against opposition teams of any calibre, thereby allowing for a greater degree of inherent understanding to develop between the players selected. This would hopefully render them more capable of playing in a variety of different ways according to what the immediate situation demands. I am NOT advocating that we adopt an approach that ignores the need to rotate and use 'squad' players, I'm merely stating my view that our most frequently used starting 11 should ALSO be the one that we employ in the majority of the 'big games' that we play.

I believe that Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado in front of Matic-Fabregas should form this 'genuine first-choice' midfield for the rest of the season. With Matic holding, Fabregas deep in midfield providing creativity, Costa ahead providing the goal-threat, and Hazard/Cuadrado alongside providing spark and unpredictability (as well as our secondary goal/assist threat), what we need most from our CAM is a combination of defensive work-rate, speed, and steady retention of possession that these other players can then use as a platform to work upon. Despite certain notable weaknesses to his game, Willian is the player that I suspect will best fulfill these requirements.

You see, I have to disagree with your assertion that Willian is generally as average in possession as Oscar can be. He has greater upper-body strength, better balance, and better close control than Oscar, and so is not only therefore harder to ease off the ball in tight physical situations than Oscar is, but is also more capable of bringing the ball under control quickly to allow himself to make the pass. In the recent game against Everton, Willian was played centrally and was extremely reliable in possession, more so than even an in-form Oscar tends to be. His possession-game suffers when he's playing on the right because he is right-footed, and this does not allow him to play his 'natural' game as easily as he would be able to when playing on the left or through the centre. At Shakhtar he played a similar left-winger/no.10 hybrid role to the one Hazard currently plays for us, and it's much harder for a right-footed player to play in that same style from the right; how many times has Hazard made the switch to the right during one of our games and looked less dangerous than when he's playing from the left? Quite often I'd say.

And.... urgh. What a disgustingly long post . Sorry . This is the last that I'm going to contribute to this current topic of discussion (Willian at no.10); I'm done now, I promise .

[The Chels 2,502]

Part of the reason as to why we seem so clueless in attack in such matches appears to be because Mourinho does not trust Oscar against top quality opponents, and so insists upon dropping him for Ramires (or Mikel) whilst also moving Fabregas out of the area of the pitch in which he appears to be at his most effective; this simultaneously neuters our pressing AND our ability to retain possession. If this problem arises as a result of Oscar not being trusted to play the no.10 role in most of the 'big games', then surely a better course of action to take would be to try to find a solution that allows us to field the same starting 11 against opposition teams of any calibre, thereby allowing for a greater degree of inherent understanding to develop between the players selected. This would hopefully render them more capable of playing in a variety of different ways according to what the immediate situation demands. I am NOT advocating that we adopt an approach that ignores the need to rotate and use 'squad' players, I'm merely stating my view that our most frequently used starting 11 should ALSO be the one that we employ in the majority of the 'big games' that we play.

I believe that Hazard-Willian-Cuadrado in front of Matic-Fabregas should form this 'genuine first-choice' midfield for the rest of the season. With Matic holding, Fabregas deep in midfield providing creativity, Costa ahead providing the goal-threat, and Hazard/Cuadrado alongside providing spark and unpredictability (as well as our secondary goal/assist threat), what we need most from our CAM is a combination of defensive work-rate, speed, and steady retention of possession that these other players can then use as a platform to work upon. Despite certain notable weaknesses to his game, Willian is the player that I suspect will best fulfill these requirements.

I'm sure we tried something very similar away to City with Cesc next to Matic, Ramires on the right wing and Willian playing through the middle. It didn't turn out very well. In fact Oscar, Cesc and Willian have all played as the number 10 in one big game or another this season with the team performance differing very little, which is why I believe the issues we see in such games (i.e. regularly appearing so clueless in attack) extend further than the personnel. That said it seems like we tried to go for both Tiago and Sneijder in the summer window. Those two playing at CM and CAM respectively would IMO have helped alleviate a lot of the big-game problems we've seen. It's a pity that neither deal came through.

[WNDS 502]

I'm sure we tried something very similar away to City with Cesc next to Matic, Ramires on the right wing and Willian playing through the middle. It didn't turn out very well. In fact Oscar, Cesc and Willian have all played as the number 10 in one big game or another this season with the team performance differing very little, which is why I believe the issues we see in such games (i.e. regularly appearing so clueless in attack) extend further than the personnel. That said it seems like we tried to go for both Tiago and Sneijder in the summer window. Those two playing at CM and CAM respectively would IMO have helped alleviate a lot of the big-game problems we've seen. It's a pity that neither deal came through.

Ramires, who is not a winger, on the right wing against Man City; another example of disrupting the 'first choice' eleven to better suit whatever game-plan we were trying to implement. I just feel that if we didn't find ourselves needing to make such fundamental changes to the starting line-up when facing high-quality opposition, the team would play with a greater coherence.

Look at Atletico Madrid, for example; the first-choice line-up against most opposition (Moya, Juanfran, Miranda, Godin, Siqueira/Ansaldi (the weak links), Tiago, Gabi, Koke, Arda Turan, Griezmann, Mandzukic) is also the the line-up they use most frequently against the 'big teams' they face. It's currently the same with Barcelona now that Enrique has abandoned his previous habit of changing the starting line-up pretty much every game, with Bravo, Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Alba, Busquets, Rakitic, Iniesta, Neymar, Messi, Suarez starting all the most important games, whether they are against 'big teams' or not. I don't think that it's entirely a coincidence that these two teams just 'happen' to have been obtaining some of the most impressive results in European football since the turn of the year. Other teams that have been employing their most frequently-used line-ups in the big games (player fitness permitting) are Wolfsburg, PSG, Real Madrid, Lyon etc. The domestic performances of Wolfsburg and Lyon have been particularly notable this season.

Ultimately, the strategic and tactical compromises made by most of these teams to deal with specific opposition threats are often devised to work within the already-established framework of a starting 11 that is comfortable playing together. Most of their managers DO NOT tend to make changes that completely rupture the teams' usual systems of play, and so when they are in possession and attacking their moves are slick, quick, and generally effective (even when the attacking approach has been altered somewhat). In contrast with this, Mourinho DOES make such changes when faced with high-quality opposition (e.g. Ramires on the wing, moving our deep-lying playmaker away from his zone of influence etc.) and the team suffers for it. True, we haven't lost a 'big game' so far this season, but we are seeing far too many of them end in draws during which we've only managed a few shots during the entire game and many of our best chances have come from set-pieces. If we continue to put in these types of performances in such games, then we will eventually come across a 'big team' that is in genuinely good form on the day and we WILL lose (possibly quite heavily).

And no, this post is not dealing directly with the topic of Willian at Downing Street (it's related to that, but also close to being genuinely off-topic), so I haven't gone back on what I wrote at the end of my last post (yet) .