Marco van Ginkel

[Barbara 15,149]

earlier from my phone I read some comments in this thread and other threads about how we're signing players that won't solve our problems now, that we have way too many players for the same position/zone... I think this sort of reasoning is not right for a team like Chelsea. Not anymore anyway.

We already won every trophy that is out there to win, so unless we want to prove we are no one-time-wonder we need to start planning ahead of a couple of seasons and that what I feel the club is doing now.

It isn't a great moment for England football when it comes to producing players (how do you guys say 'cantera' in English? Where spies get kids no older than 14 and bring to play with the youth?). Unfortunately there aren't many English players among the very top, so it's hard for Chelsea (or any other English club) to try to invest in discovering kids and developing them if there aren't many amazing players coming from there nowadays. Unless the club does what Barcelona did with Messi for example - getting him in the club when he was 14 - chances are we won't discover the next Ballon d'Or in England - although I hope it gets better there, there are some English players I really love throughout the history and I really love English football.

What the club is doing now is very important than reaching FFP requirements. A team like Bayern and Barcelona - that are undoubtedly the best teams in the world - isn't built like Monaco, PSG and even Chelsea (in recent past) do: buy everyone and their mothers for the next season and target on UCL. How many times have that really worked?

It's about creating a culture, a long-time and lasting structure, changing paradigms and establishing a vision and philosophy that will dictate how the club works. That's when bold targets can not only be achieved, but repeated consistently. When we look to Barça and Bayern we know what kind of team they are, they're known by everyone for at least one characteristic in their style and that requires time. Go read what Bayern's president said last year about building the best team in the world. That was a project they started working on about a decade ago (or longer, I'm not sure about the date). The same goes with Barça (it was Pep who started it there). And there's something in common with both mentalities: the work starts with the kids.

Those guys we've been signing for the last couple of seasons are 17-20 years old and that age needs to be reduced even more. This isn't about making Chelsea the team everyone will fear next season or the team that will win everything there is to win next season. This is a club that is already big becoming great, doing what needs to be done to make history just like this Barça has done. I don't know if Roman or Emenalo have a project like Barça and Bayern had, but seeing how we completely changed the way we approach the market in the last two seasons, I think there's more than just getting ready to win UCL next season or another EPL title.

That's the difference between greatness and titles holders. As a fan I want my team to mark the history not only by being the only Londoner UCL champion, but being a team everyone will remember and talk about for decades to come, a team that figures among the most impressive teams in the history and that won't happen if we continue to think of the team to the next season. A philosophy, a style and project need to be done and although no one (as far as I can say) is going out there to announce what they're planning to do with the team for let's say a decade from now, I believe it doesn't seem like their biggest concern is to win everything next season. They seem to have much bolder goals these days and the word in my heart and mind about it is: FINALLY.

So welcome, Ginkel.

[manpe 10,861]

Who's this guy? Is he someone who's most likely going to get loaned out, placed in reserves or is he someone who's going to have an impact right from the start? What position does he play exactly (I know he's a central midfielder, but what kind)?

[BlueLyon 9,359]

earlier from my phone I read some comments in this thread and other threads about how we're signing players that won't solve our problems now, that we have way too many players for the same position/zone... I think this sort of reasoning is not right for a team like Chelsea. Not anymore anyway.

We already won every trophy that is out there to win, so unless we want to prove we are no one-time-wonder we need to start planning ahead of a couple of seasons and that what I feel the club is doing now.

It isn't a great moment for England football when it comes to producing players (how do you guys say 'cantera' in English? Where spies get kids no older than 14 and bring to play with the youth?). Unfortunately there aren't many English players among the very top, so it's hard for Chelsea (or any other English club) to try to invest in discovering kids and developing them if there aren't many amazing players coming from there nowadays. Unless the club does what Barcelona did with Messi for example - getting him in the club when he was 14 - chances are we won't discover the next Ballon d'Or in England - although I hope it gets better there, there are some English players I really love throughout the history and I really love English football.

What the club is doing now is very important than reaching FFP requirements. A team like Bayern and Barcelona - that are undoubtedly the best teams in the world - isn't built like Monaco, PSG and even Chelsea (in recent past) do: buy everyone and their mothers for the next season and target on UCL. How many times have that really worked?

It's about creating a culture, a long-time and lasting structure, changing paradigms and establishing a vision and philosophy that will dictate how the club works. That's when bold targets can not only be achieved, but repeated consistently. When we look to Barça and Bayern we know what kind of team they are, they're known by everyone for at least one characteristic in their style and that requires time. Go read what Bayern's president said last year about building the best team in the world. That was a project they started working on about a decade ago (or longer, I'm not sure about the date). The same goes with Barça (it was Pep who started it there). And there's something in common with both mentalities: the work starts with the kids.

Those guys we've been signing for the last couple of seasons are 17-20 years old and that age needs to be reduced even more. This isn't about making Chelsea the team everyone will fear next season or the team that will win everything there is to win next season. This is a club that is already big becoming great, doing what needs to be done to make history just like this Barça has done. I don't know if Roman or Emenalo have a project like Barça and Bayern had, but seeing how we completely changed the way we approach the market in the last two seasons, I think there's more than just getting ready to win UCL next season or another EPL title.

That's the difference between greatness and titles holders. As a fan I want my team to mark the history not only by being the only Londoner UCL champion, but being a team everyone will remember and talk about for decades to come, a team that figures among the most impressive teams in the history and that won't happen if we continue to think of the team to the next season. A philosophy, a style and project need to be done and although no one (as far as I can say) is going out there to announce what they're planning to do with the team for let's say a decade from now, I believe it doesn't seem like their biggest concern is to win everything next season. They seem to have much bolder goals these days and the word in my heart and mind about it is: FINALLY.

So welcome, Ginkel.

This will happen only with permament coach and sane board. If we want team for future with healthy relations, we need to make Mourinho our coach for next 5 years, NO MATTER WHAT.

Now ask yourself; Is Roman going to do that?

I hope he will and all our young players including Kdb, Mazacar, Ginkel, Romeu,...and homegrown like Chalobah, Rlc,...will make our team world beaters in couple of years, but I fear we are overloaded at some positions. I support the project and will support club decisions no matter what, but in the end, it could work or not. Its not guaranteed. And we dont realy have the experience to put young players in first team (Oscar or Azpi were quite known when we signed them, difference will be with Chalobah or Rlc).

Last thing is this: WHY WE ALWAYS BUY? WE HAVE RLC OR CHALOBAH WHO ARE BOTH YOUNG PROSPECTS. WHY SIGN KONDOGBIA OR GINKEL THEN? WHY NOT GIVE THAT ROLE TO OUR PLAYERS INSTEAD OF LOAN THEM? THAT WILL MAKE US GREAT TEAM, HAVING OUR OWN WORLD CLASS PLAYERS WHO WERE RAISED AT COBHAM. NOT JUST BUY, BUY, BUY OTHER TALENTS.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

This will happen only with permament coach and sane board. If we want team for future with healthy relations, we need to make Mourinho our coach for next 5 years, NO MATTER WHAT.

Now ask yourself; Is Roman going to do that?

I hope he will and all our young players including Kdb, Mazacar, Ginkel, Romeu,...and homegrown like Chalobah, Rlc,...will make our team world beaters in couple of years, but I fear we are overloaded at some positions. I support the project and will support club decisions no matter what, but in the end, it could work or not. Its not guaranteed. And we dont realy have the experience to put young players in first team (Oscar or Azpi were quite known when we signed them, difference will be with Chalobah or Rlc).

Last thing is this: WHY WE ALWAYS BUY? WE HAVE RLC OR CHALOBAH WHO ARE BOTH YOUNG PROSPECTS. WHY SIGN KONDOGBIA OR GINKEL THEN? WHY NOT GIVE THAT ROLE TO OUR PLAYERS INSTEAD OF LOAN THEM? THAT WILL MAKE US GREAT TEAM, HAVING OUR OWN WORLD CLASS PLAYERS WHO WERE RAISED AT COBHAM. NOT JUST BUY, BUY, BUY OTHER TALENTS.

Chalobah is only 18 and has only had 1 season and that in the Championship. You're on something if you think we should put that kind of responsibility on a guy that young. He needs consistent time in the EPL to develop before he's ready for Chelsea. Van Ginkel has already played 120 games for Vitesse, he's a full international for Netherlands and will most likely be part of their world cup squad next year. Now you tell me which player we have in our midfield ranks that is that far in their development?

And, don't even mention RLC, dude is 16, by the time he gets to 20, 21, Lamps, Essien, Mikel will be all gone, Ramires will be close to the end of his career and Van Ginkel would be our first choice starter alongside Chalobah most likely.

I understand what you're saying, but Van Ginkel thread def isn't the place to bring this up in. Van Ginkel is the same place in his development as Oscar was last year and KDB, Lukaku are this year. They have had good experience and can help the first team. Chalobah is two steps behind (another loan) then Chelsea squad, and RLC is 3 (championship loan, EPL loan, Chelsea). And, guys like Lewis Baker and Ake aren't good enough to make it for Chelsea imo. They'll still have a good career and owe a lot of Chelsea academy for developing them and handling their loans, but they aren't as good prospects as RLC and Chalobah.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Chalobah is only 18 and has only had 1 season and that in the Championship. You're on something if you think we should put that kind of responsibility on a guy that young. He needs consistent time in the EPL to develop before he's ready for Chelsea. Van Ginkel has already played 120 games for Vitesse, he's a full international for Netherlands and will most likely be part of their world cup squad next year. Now you tell me which player we have in our midfield ranks that is that far in their development?

And, don't even mention RLC, dude is 16, by the time he gets to 20, 21, Lamps, Essien, Mikel will be all gone, Ramires will be close to the end of his career and Van Ginkel would be our first choice starter alongside Chalobah most likely.

I understand what you're saying, but Van Ginkel thread def isn't the place to bring this up in. Van Ginkel is the same place in his development as Oscar was last year and KDB, Lukaku are this year. They have had good experience and can help the first team. Chalobah is two steps behind (another loan) then Chelsea squad, and RLC is 3 (championship loan, EPL loan, Chelsea). And, guys like Lewis Baker and Ake aren't good enough to make it for Chelsea imo. They'll still have a good career and owe a lot of Chelsea academy for developing them and handling their loans, but they aren't as good prospects as RLC and Chalobah.

So where exactly will Chalobah and Rlc play at age 20-21 when Ginkel and rest will be even more experienced? Where will they get experience? On loans to be forgotten? Because they wont get much play time. We should sign someone like De Rossi and rotate him with Rambo, Lamps, Romeu,..while Rlc and Chalobah would get chances in Fa and Carling.

Besides point of transition seasons is that you give chance to young players, not win games and titles. If Chalobah or Rlc would get 20 games next season, we might finish 4th with zero trophies, but Rlc and Chalobah would get more experience. Point of transition season, I guess many here expect youth to just pop in the team and we will still play top football all the time...

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

So where exactly will Chalobah and Rlc play at age 20-21 when Ginkel and rest will be even more experienced? Where will they get experience? On loans to be forgotten? Because they wont get much play time. We should sign someone like De Rossi and rotate him with Rambo, Lamps, Romeu,..while Rlc and Chalobah would get chances in Fa and Carling.

Besides point of transition seasons is that you give chance to young players, not win games and titles. If Chalobah or Rlc would get 20 games next season, we might finish 4th with zero trophies, but Rlc and Chalobah would get more experience. Point of transition season, I guess many here expect youth to just pop in the team and we will still play top football all the time...

Who is Ginkel and the rest?

When Chalobah is 21, we'll have Mikel, Ramires, Romeu and Van Ginkel only.

When RLC is 21, we'll have Romeu and Van Ginkel only.

I really don't see what you're talking about being overcrowded.

Point of transition season is definitely NOT to finish 4th but blood in youngsters. Point of a transition season is move towards a different set of players, playing style etc. You could buy 6 30 year olds and integrate them next season and that will still be called a transition season. Transition has absolutely nothing to do with integrating youth into the team. If you want to integrate youth and be content with 4th then have fun turning Chelsea into Arsenal for the next 10 years.

Chelsea's transition is not to get younger (that's a by product thanks to good scouting). Our transition is the immersion of a new playing style, with a new set of players. Emenalo has done an amazing job to ensure the new set is still very young too.

Chalobah and RLC will gain experience playing in Chelsea, but it'll be at a cost. Getting babied through a long season with Carling Cup and useless games can only help so much. You know what's good experience? Chalobah fighting for his and his team's life in the Championship for a playoff spot, that's good experience, not a Carling Cup game where he gets 30 minutes after we're up 5 goals. Right now, their physical and technical development is more important than experience. Experience will come in due time. It's a myth when people say these youth kids need experience. Yes they need some top level experience but priority should be towards their physical and technical development before you shove some experience down their throat. They are still kids for god's sakes. They need consistent playing time wherever that may be, they need specialized training and top level coaching.

Physical, technical development comes first for teenagers. Once they are far in that development, then start worrying about experience. Oscar, KDB, Lukaku and Van Ginkel. These guys have been through their initial development stage and are now on their path to amass experience at the top level to be able to cope with the pressures of being at a club like Chelsea (I would say Lukaku is still very raw, but he's a freak athelete so he's an exception). Chalobah, RLC, McEachran are still in their initial stages of development. They need to focus on other things before we start worrying about whether they've had good experience.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Who is Ginkel and the rest?

When Chalobah is 21, we'll have Mikel, Ramires, Romeu and Van Ginkel only.

When RLC is 21, we'll have Romeu and Van Ginkel only.

I really don't see what you're talking about being overcrowded.

Point of transition season is definitely NOT to finish 4th but blood in youngsters. Point of a transition season is move towards a different set of players, playing style etc. You could buy 6 30 year olds and integrate them next season and that will still be called a transition season. Transition has absolutely nothing to do with integrating youth into the team. If you want to integrate youth and be content with 4th then have fun turning Chelsea into Arsenal for the next 10 years.

Chelsea's transition is not to get younger (that's a by product thanks to good scouting). Our transition is the immersion of a new playing style, with a new set of players. Emenalo has done an amazing job to ensure the new set is still very young too.

Chalobah and RLC will gain experience playing in Chelsea, but it'll be at a cost. Getting babied through a long season with Carling Cup and useless games can only help so much. You know what's good experience? Chalobah fighting for his and his team's life in the Championship for a playoff spot, that's good experience, not a Carling Cup game where he gets 30 minutes after we're up 5 goals. Right now, their physical and technical development is more important than experience. Experience will come in due time. It's a myth when people say these youth kids need experience. Yes they need some top level experience but priority should be towards their physical and technical development before you shove some experience down their throat. They are still kids for god's sakes. They need consistent playing time wherever that may be, they need specialized training and top level coaching.

Physical, technical development comes first for teenagers. Once they are far in that development, then start worrying about experience. Oscar, KDB, Lukaku and Van Ginkel. These guys have been through their initial development stage and are now on their path to amass experience at the top level to be able to cope with the pressures of being at a club like Chelsea (I would say Lukaku is still very raw, but he's a freak athelete so he's an exception). Chalobah, RLC, McEachran are still in their initial stages of development. They need to focus on other things before we start worrying about whether they've had good experience.

My point was why buy other players when we could use our own?

Barca had Thiago but instead bought Cesc. Spent lot of money and now it seems they will lose one of the best if not the best la massia product of last few years. Just an odd example, but back then Thiago didnt seem to be good enough, now he is. Perhaps Rlc and Chalobah arent good enough now, but will be in two years. Lets say we buy Kondogbia and we play Ginkel as main CM for next 10 years. Where will Chalobah and Rlc play? You know you CAN develop own players in club not sending them on loans. Think of 19 years old Ronaldo at ManU. Was he too young? Should he be sent on loan, who knows what would happen to him. As far as I know we dont have good DM. Why not give chance to Chalobah who would exchange with Romeu, Mikel? What if he becomes world class DM but it would sacrifice one season for Chelsea sucess? Would you take it or send him on loan for few years and buy some top DM/Kondogbia instead?

Same goes for the rest of our players.

[Moros 86]

Not wanting to be a party pooper, but whoever believes Van Ginkel is as far as Oscar was last year or as fars KDB is this year, well is quite deluded. Sure he has played quite a few games for vitesse (which were very depended on Bony), what does that say? The Dutch league is only very slightly better than the Belgian one, if at all. I'd say he's about as far as KDB a year and a half ago. I think he could have an impact but needs a decent loan for year first. Sure he's part of the dutch squad, but as far as I know he played only once for them. Compare that to KDB or Oscar who have been vital for their national teams. And let's not forget that both those player hold a much more contested position than the one Van Ginkel aims to get. Let's be fair, the dutch while still have a quality side aren't as much quality as they used to and are in sort of transition period. Only a few of their top players from the earlier cups are part of it (remember how well they did?) with only Robben, Huntelaar and RVP being really in form and top class players and those being focused almost exclusively in the attacking part. Sure central midfield isn't in such bad shape as their defence currently is, but still. Strootman has the preference and he is more comparable to the level of players were talking about, Clasie and Deguzman also seem to be higher in the hierarchy. Both decent players for an international squad, but no more than that.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

Hyjack Paulinho's move to Tottenham and get Luis Gustavo (who fell behind Martinez in the pecking order), then our pivot is sorted

Speaking of Martinez it's painful watching him knowing just how perfect he will be for us.

De Rossi fits us even better, Martinez is probably the slowest player on the planet.

I hope we rather loan MvG back to Vitesse or so. He will not find enough playing time cos he is still way behind any of Oscar, Lampard, Ramires.

[Blue Gino 377]

I wouldn't be concerned about Chalobah, I think he's the future defensive mid of the team, MVG is a great signing and imo keeps Lampard glued to the bench a majority of the season. There's room for Chalobah and RLC to make an impact eventually because of FFP. They HAVE to start bleeding Chelsea youth into the first team they have no choice but to.

[Moros 86]

De Rossi fits us even better, Martinez is probably the slowest player on the planet.

I hope we rather loan MvG back to Vitesse or so. He will not find enough playing time cos he is still way behind any of Oscar, Lampard, Ramires.

I'd rather hope a smaller BPL or Bundesliga team. The step from the Dutch league to the English one is rather big especially to a team of Chelsea's quality. Let's give him a step up. Why not Werder Bremen again for example?

[communicate 2,703]

Hyjack Paulinho's move to Tottenham and get Luis Gustavo (who fell behind Martinez in the pecking order), then our pivot is sorted

Speaking of Martinez it's painful watching him knowing just how perfect he will be for us.

I thought bayern overpayed for him last year. 40m euro for dm. But he has proved me wrong, not only he is the perfect mid for bayern. But all around midfield is just rare this day.

[The Skipper 20,609]

If he does stay he'll pleasantly surprise a few of you with the maturity in his game.

[Heisenberg 1,824]

If he does stay he'll pleasantly surprise a few of you with the maturity in his game.

Why José would convince a young player to come if he wont play him ?

[Vybz Kartel 1,613]

Not a big fan of the signing considering he offers almost the same qualities as Josh, Nath, RLC to name but a few we should seriously start giving our youths more chances instead of wasting their talents.