The Benitez Thread

[zolayes 14,489]

That's the thing, get out of the history mindset, we are all very thankful to Zolas and Wises and Drogbas and Lampards and whoever but the club must function now and in the present,future. It's time to move on

and do you consider we are moving on with Benitez??? or just moving down ... and are you aware of Hoddles abilities?

[Tomo 21,733]

and do you consider we are moving on with Benitez??? or just moving down ... and are you aware of Hoddles abilities?

He did a good job with us in the early 90's and contributed to starting our revoulution this day. But we would right now be appointing a manager who has been out of the game for nearly a decade, you only need to ask Liverpool fans how successful that formula is.

[Bosnian Blue 2,471]

What about Ray Wilkins ?

Impossible, but we thought the same with the interim.

[zolayes 14,489]

He did a good job with us in the early 90's and contributed to starting our revoulution this day. But we would right now be appointing a manager who has been out of the game for nearly a decade, you only need to ask Liverpool fans how successful that formula is.

he is only 3 years older than Benitez ...has never failed as a coach ....was driven out of the English job thro a PR mistake .... you are entitled to your belief that Benitez is better BUT remember your original post

on the subject ... My last word on the subject,,,

[Tomo 21,733]

he is only 3 years older than Benitez ...has never failed as a coach ....was driven out of the English job thro a PR mistake .... you are entitled to your belief that Benitez is better BUT remember your original post

on the subject ... My last word on the subject,,,

What was my original word on the subject, that time is moved on and it's not 1994?

I respect Hoddle for what he did and i don't particularly like Benitez, but my love for this club overrides any personal thoughts on individuals. I don't like Ferguson but if he ever put his name in the hat for the Chelsea job when we had our vacancy i would be thrilled.

[zolayes 14,489]

Not rating Rafa is one thing, but Hoddle doing better? we might aswell put McLeish on our next shortlist while were at it.

THIS ... if this isnt an insult I don't know what would be ...

now go kiss Rafas ARSE

[Tomo 21,733]

THIS ... if this isnt an insult I don't know what would be ...

now go kiss Rafas ARSE

and here was me hoping for a decent debate, my bad.

[Alabama 1,992]

rafa sucks....i cant wait till d end of the season......

[Rupert 130]

I hope the ignorant, anti-Rafa yobos on here read this. It's very true. But more important I hope the decent Chelsea fans read it shout teh boo boys down:© Copyright Guillem Balague 2012

Webdesign David Alvira

Guillem Balague Exclusive: Author Talks Pep Guardiola, Barcelona, Rafa Benitez By Nick Ackerman on January 24, 2013

Friday 25-01-2013

Guillem Balague is one of the world's most recognisable football experts. The trusted Sky Sports pundit spends his time talking all things Spanish on Revista de La Liga, writing for The Times and staying ahead of the curve onTwitter.

B/R: Before we part, what are you thoughts on Rafa Benitez's treatment at Chelsea?

It's fascinating that Luis Felipe Scolari, Fabio Capello and Rafa Benitez are laughed at in England. Top managers who can do a lot of good for their teams. I don't know why that is, but it is a 'fact' as Rafa would say.

I've been thinking of big clubs in history that have actually had such a big go at their managers. Not based on results and not based on performances. Certainly not based on the work this person puts into the team, the hours he puts into it, what his CV is, what his history is. I can only think of Van Gaal in his second time at Barcelona—not at Bayern Munich, not at Milan, not at Juve, not at Real Madrid, not really, not really.

So, I'm fascinated to know where all of this comes from. I know, I heard all of the stories where he comes from. It's interesting that Chelsea fans I know of are telling me the ones with the campaign are a minority.

But I think it's all based on one thing. Fans have lost power; they don't have any power anymore, anywhere. They don't have power towards their clubs, they don't have power towards the players, on the decisions, nothing.

When the club is a bit weak, it is their chance to have a say, an influence. They smell the weakness and they grab a victim (Rafa in this case) and don't let go. It is their way to feel influential, powerful again. They have created almost like a celebrity fan set—we will be the ones that will get rid of a manager and impose the one we want.

But, I say, you are affecting the team and its performance. Well, that minority doesn't seem to care—first it is us, what we think, what we say, me, me, me... very typical of this society.

It happened at Aston Villa, it happened at Newcastle and it happened at Chelsea. Fans thought, 'No, definitely not Rafa, anyone but Rafa.' That was their decision, 'whoever, but not Rafa.' So, when they got Rafa in, it was putting to them, 'Sorry, but you don't have any power.' That's very annoying for that small group.

I think that's what it is but I would love to have a forum where I can chat to them, discuss, argue, shout at each other even, with respect always present. But a minority in that minority seem to prefer to insult in a kind of bullying way. I hate bullying, I love arguing. It is a shame some behave like that because football is to be loved, discussed, enjoyed.

A huge thank you to Balague for taking time out of his busy schedule to speak with me, and to the staff at Waterstones, Leeds.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1498270-guillem-balague-exclusive-author-talks-pep-guardiola-barcelona-rafa-benitez

[SinineUltra 1,170]

So, I saw some comments suggesting that Persona-Non-Grata-N°1 (or number two ?) isn't to blame since it isn't his fault if the bench is thin, because he has no control over transfers (thanks God for that, giving that kind of control to a stopgap would be stupid) and because some millionaires are way below the level they're supposed to play to.

Well... Isn't that a hypocrite thing to say ? Yes, that is.

Let's make a little analogy. Mr. X buys the brand new car which is meant to be the fastest around, in order to take part in a car race. Mr. X has splashed out an aweful lot of money to purchase this car ; a car way more expensive than any others. Yet, does that mean that Mr. X will win the race hands down, because he does has the best car around ? NO ! If that man does appear to not be able to fully master the car or/and isn't good enough to drive it, then, the car's potential will be wasted and that car will look like a wack one.

Know what I mean ? The same thing does apply to our current situation. We have a squad compound of expensive players - a squad short in number, but an expensive squad nonetheless. A footballer isn't an “aim” but a “ means” . It's a “tool” to attain an “aim“. Just as military chiefs use soldiers to win some war, coaches use players to win a football game. Since football players are tools, they need someone to use them, to lead them. In some way, just as soldiers won't win the war in which they're involved into if there's not someone to determine some strategy, players will not get anywhere if there is not someone to tell them which tactics to adopt ; and just as the car will not move if there isn't any driver in it, the players will not put in great performances if there is not someone to show them the way. Especially young players, like we do have (Hazard, Oscar, Moses, Marin, Bertrand, Azpilicueta).

Furthermore, there's a big difference between 11 players and a team. The eleven players are eleven individualities (obviously...) and a team is eleven individualities playing as a whole. It needs something to turn eleven players into a sole unity - a link. And in most of cases, that link is - a priori - the coach. There's not many teams that would be able to fully perform without someone to tell 'em how. And these aberration are due to specific circumstances : a coach has perfectly shapped 'em into a sole entity, and/or they've played a long time together and thus are on the same page, and/or they've been inculcated the same philosphy... Chelsea post-Mourinho springs to mind. We were - at that time - able to play without any coaching intervention because Mourinho build a great team, because players were all shapped into a team by the same person and all played together for a long time.

And I'd like to add that the level of the coach (as for the driver or the military chief...) doesn't really matter. What the matter is all about, it's the feeling - the feeling between the coach and the set of players at his disposal. You can have the best coach around, and the best players as well, if they aren't on the same wavelength (the coach towards the players ; the players toward the coach), it will not work. If the manager does not know how to use his “tools”, he will not make the team performe, no matter how good he is.

Finally, in order things work out, the coach has to be legitimate into his players' eyes. Indeed, he must be able to rally them under the same credo. He must inspire them. He has to show them that he is the right man. If they does not have confidence into him and his abilities, then it'll be a failure.

The bottom line is that you cannot close your eyes on what Persona-Non-Grata-N°1 is producing, while putting the fault onto the players and/or the board. Yes, the players aren't performing at the level they should ; yes the board does have a major part in our failure. Although, yes, the spaniard is actually also at fault for our underachievement. Because yes, he hasn't managed to federate its players, he has failed to get the best out of 'em.

It's just as when you transplant an organ into someone : sometimes, the body does reject the foreign organ. The connection does not click between the iterim manager and the players, the connection does not click between the interim manager and the fan base - the connection does not click between the interim manager and the club. The transplantation has failed.

Heartwarming speech. But you missed the point. Football is a team play and as much as it needs a coach, it needs players to show up. It's a effort on both parts and some people choose to accept that and blame Rafa ONLY. That's what some of us are trying to say - not only Rafa is to be blamed. I agree that his tactics are off sometimes, but then again he wins us games we don't expect us to. So his tactics bring us a lot of joy also.. Now if you expect manager to CONSTANTLY motivate players to do their job properly then I'm disgusted by them.. They get payed more than they deserve, they play for one of the elite clubs in the world. Coming out of your text, players are money grabbing egoists, who can't motivate themselves for playing good and respect the shirt and fans.

Regarding your military comparison. I served in the army and as much as it was down to the platoon leader to decide what maneuver to execute, it was always dependent on the men who actually HAD to follow the orders. The tactics could have been spot on but if the men were slacking and not giving a damn, you were bound to have casualties. Regardless of what they think of the leader (or Rafa in our context) and his tactics, as a professional you must obey. You can say that our thin squad is not a valid reason for bad performances, but it makes us dependent on a handful of players who - understandably so- can't carry the team week in week out till the end of the season. We lack character in the dressing room. Lampard is a great individual but never a leader, not a captain. So in that sense, we've missed Terry very much.

Most of our squad is playing together for the first time and we can't expect it all to click just like that. I get that we are spoilt by the clubs recent years' successes but everything takes time. We are changing managers like socks, sometimes for a reason, mostly not. Regarding RDM and his reign. He brought us the holy grail 19.05 and we love him for it. Though, he did achieve it through a much experienced players, he had Drogba, Terry, Lampard, Malouda, Meireles etc. Bear in mind that with current crop of players we have, he didn't really do any better than Benitez, WHILE having so called backing of the fans and as a 'permanent' manager the respect of the players. I really couldn't see these kind of silly arguments flying around when Guus Hiddink took over for a couple of months. The thing with Rafa is that a majority of his haters (I use this word on purpose) don't like him because of his past, not because he is a failure as a manager. I don't think that the squad does not respect Rafa, there is nothing out there that would indicate that.

All in all, if we keep hold on for third place, it would be major improvement on last year's 6th. Achieving this while being in a transition phase with all the new faces etc. Winning the FA cup is also an option still but a long shot as is the EL. Regarding all the other trophies we could of won this year.. as much as Rafa is to be blamed for his game plan etc, players never showed up. What characterizes our season so far is WASTEFULNESS. We might have 5-6 golden opportunities but we somehow manage not to score enough to come out with a result. Not scoring the chances come ONLY down to players. You can't argue about that.

50 50 blame, some choose to make it one-sided and ignore other parties involved. Talking about being hypocrite.

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

and do you consider we are moving on with Benitez??? or just moving down ... and are you aware of Hoddles abilities?

Till the end of the season, yes we are moving forward with Benitez, noone to get. Top managers aren't apples on the tree and we've wasted alot of good managers. To be fair, if I was a manager, I wouldn't even consider Chelsea. Pep did a good job going to Bayern, should have sticked with Ancelotti

Don't compare football now and post century football, it's like comparing engineering now and then, uncomparable. Keep your memories about that era but things have changed.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

double, sorry

Edited January 25, 2013 by SinineUltra

[MetsajCFC 1,255]

So, I saw some comments suggesting that Persona-Non-Grata-N°1 (or number two ?) isn't to blame since it isn't his fault if the bench is thin, because he has no control over transfers (thanks God for that, giving that kind of control to a stopgap would be stupid) and because some millionaires are way below the level they're supposed to play to.

Well... Isn't that a hypocrite thing to say ? Yes, that is.

Let's make a little analogy. Mr. X buys the brand new car which is meant to be the fastest around, in order to take part in a car race. Mr. X has splashed out an aweful lot of money to purchase this car ; a car way more expensive than any others. Yet, does that mean that Mr. X will win the race hands down, because he does has the best car around ? NO ! If that man does appear to not be able to fully master the car or/and isn't good enough to drive it, then, the car's potential will be wasted and that car will look like a wack one.

Know what I mean ? The same thing does apply to our current situation. We have a squad compound of expensive players - a squad short in number, but an expensive squad nonetheless. A footballer isn't an “aim” but a “ means” . It's a “tool” to attain an “aim“. Just as military chiefs use soldiers to win some war, coaches use players to win a football game. Since football players are tools, they need someone to use them, to lead them. In some way, just as soldiers won't win the war in which they're involved into if there's not someone to determine some strategy, players will not get anywhere if there is not someone to tell them which tactics to adopt ; and just as the car will not move if there isn't any driver in it, the players will not put in great performances if there is not someone to show them the way. Especially young players, like we do have (Hazard, Oscar, Moses, Marin, Bertrand, Azpilicueta).

Furthermore, there's a big difference between 11 players and a team. The eleven players are eleven individualities (obviously...) and a team is eleven individualities playing as a whole. It needs something to turn eleven players into a sole unity - a link. And in most of cases, that link is - a priori - the coach. There's not many teams that would be able to fully perform without someone to tell 'em how. And these aberration are due to specific circumstances : a coach has perfectly shapped 'em into a sole entity, and/or they've played a long time together and thus are on the same page, and/or they've been inculcated the same philosphy... Chelsea post-Mourinho springs to mind. We were - at that time - able to play without any coaching intervention because Mourinho build a great team, because players were all shapped into a team by the same person and all played together for a long time.

And I'd like to add that the level of the coach (as for the driver or the military chief...) doesn't really matter. What the matter is all about, it's the feeling - the feeling between the coach and the set of players at his disposal. You can have the best coach around, and the best players as well, if they aren't on the same wavelength (the coach towards the players ; the players toward the coach), it will not work. If the manager does not know how to use his “tools”, he will not make the team performe, no matter how good he is.

Finally, in order things work out, the coach has to be legitimate into his players' eyes. Indeed, he must be able to rally them under the same credo. He must inspire them. He has to show them that he is the right man. If they does not have confidence into him and his abilities, then it'll be a failure.

The bottom line is that you cannot close your eyes on what Persona-Non-Grata-N°1 is producing, while putting the fault onto the players and/or the board. Yes, the players aren't performing at the level they should ; yes the board does have a major part in our failure. Although, yes, the spaniard is actually also at fault for our underachievement. Because yes, he hasn't managed to federate its players, he has failed to get the best out of 'em.

It's just as when you transplant an organ into someone : sometimes, the body does reject the foreign organ. The connection does not click between the iterim manager and the players, the connection does not click between the interim manager and the fan base - the connection does not click between the interim manager and the club. The transplantation has failed.

Your comparisons are off mate, you don't take the "human factor" into the equation. Torres doesn't score - Benitez's fault, Mata, Lampard, Ramires miss sitters - Rafa's fault. There's a saying, translating it roughly from my own language: "it's human-like to make mistakes", we all make them. From your analogy, we can say that if for example you or any other person turns out to be a criminal, a slob, a drunk or just a waste of space on Earth, does that make it their parents fault? - no, everyone is responisble for themselves.

Also, what you're saying is that Mourinho, Ancelotti, Scolari, Grant, AVB, RDM and now Rafa - neither of those names were able to motivate players and get CONSISTENT results through out the season, because they all got the sack for the results? They're professionals, atleast I hope so, this isn't a kindergarden - "I don't want to play with you" etc etc, it's their job. Does your boss (not sure if you work or study) or professor needs to motivate you? No, because you've got to work your ass off yourself or you'll get either sacked yourself or drop out of university. Why are professional footballers any different? They aren't, only with the fact that they earn as much money in a month that you or me earn in our whole lives.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

I hope the ignorant, anti-Rafa yobos on here read this. It's very true. But more important I hope the decent Chelsea fans read it shout teh boo boys down:© Copyright Guillem Balague 2012

Webdesign David Alvira

Guillem Balague Exclusive: Author Talks Pep Guardiola, Barcelona, Rafa Benitez By Nick Ackerman on January 24, 2013

Friday 25-01-2013

Guillem Balague is one of the world's most recognisable football experts. The trusted Sky Sports pundit spends his time talking all things Spanish on Revista de La Liga, writing for The Times and staying ahead of the curve onTwitter.

B/R: Before we part, what are you thoughts on Rafa Benitez's treatment at Chelsea?

It's fascinating that Luis Felipe Scolari, Fabio Capello and Rafa Benitez are laughed at in England. Top managers who can do a lot of good for their teams. I don't know why that is, but it is a 'fact' as Rafa would say.

I've been thinking of big clubs in history that have actually had such a big go at their managers. Not based on results and not based on performances. Certainly not based on the work this person puts into the team, the hours he puts into it, what his CV is, what his history is. I can only think of Van Gaal in his second time at Barcelona—not at Bayern Munich, not at Milan, not at Juve, not at Real Madrid, not really, not really.

So, I'm fascinated to know where all of this comes from. I know, I heard all of the stories where he comes from. It's interesting that Chelsea fans I know of are telling me the ones with the campaign are a minority.

But I think it's all based on one thing. Fans have lost power; they don't have any power anymore, anywhere. They don't have power towards their clubs, they don't have power towards the players, on the decisions, nothing.

When the club is a bit weak, it is their chance to have a say, an influence. They smell the weakness and they grab a victim (Rafa in this case) and don't let go. It is their way to feel influential, powerful again. They have created almost like a celebrity fan set—we will be the ones that will get rid of a manager and impose the one we want.

But, I say, you are affecting the team and its performance. Well, that minority doesn't seem to care—first it is us, what we think, what we say, me, me, me... very typical of this society.

It happened at Aston Villa, it happened at Newcastle and it happened at Chelsea. Fans thought, 'No, definitely not Rafa, anyone but Rafa.' That was their decision, 'whoever, but not Rafa.' So, when they got Rafa in, it was putting to them, 'Sorry, but you don't have any power.' That's very annoying for that small group.

I think that's what it is but I would love to have a forum where I can chat to them, discuss, argue, shout at each other even, with respect always present. But a minority in that minority seem to prefer to insult in a kind of bullying way. I hate bullying, I love arguing. It is a shame some behave like that because football is to be loved, discussed, enjoyed.

A huge thank you to Balague for taking time out of his busy schedule to speak with me, and to the staff at Waterstones, Leeds.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1498270-guillem-balague-exclusive-author-talks-pep-guardiola-barcelona-rafa-benitez

I think your views on Benitez are a bit too much to the extreme compared to me but this is a good post and very very accurate. Good find mate

[Muzchap 8,966]

Your comparisons are off mate, you don't take the "human factor" into the equation. Torres doesn't score - Benitez's fault, Mata, Lampard, Ramires miss sitters - Rafa's fault. There's a saying, translating it roughly from my own language: "it's human-like to make mistakes", we all make them. From your analogy, we can say that if for example you or any other person turns out to be a criminal, a slob, a drunk or just a waste of space on Earth, does that make it their parents fault? - no, everyone is responisble for themselves.

Also, what you're saying is that Mourinho, Ancelotti, Scolari, Grant, AVB, RDM and now Rafa - neither of those names were able to motivate players and get CONSISTENT results through out the season, because they all got the sack for the results? They're professionals, atleast I hope so, this isn't a kindergarden - "I don't want to play with you" etc etc, it's their job. Does your boss (not sure if you work or study) or professor needs to motivate you? No, because you've got to work your ass off yourself or you'll get either sacked yourself or drop out of university. Why are professional footballers any different? They aren't, only with the fact that they earn as much money in a month that you or me earn in our whole lives.

Er... people don't always work their arse of... That's the reason you have 'Managers'? Human nature (except oddoties) dictates if you can expend less effort in achieving something, then you will... It goes back to the days of hunter/gatherer - why run 100 miles to get food if you can run 1 mile...

Not sure what you do for a living - but I manage a team of 40 Masters Educated Developers - and they sitll have to be cajooled into working to the best of their ability every day, why would a 'professional' footballer be any different.

Mourinho was not sacked for 'results' - it was a well publicised bust up... BUT he could seemingly motivate a team to win consistently, and to instil a belief into a group of players that went on winning, long after he departed.

I don't think Rafa does this... Certainly Liverpool haven't gone from strength to strength? In fact quite the opposite...

He should never have been appointed is my 'balanced view' after giving him a chance, but he's here until the summer and then we need to make a decision... If he stays, it will (IN MY OPINION) be to the detriment of the club.

Pep G can say what he wants about RB and Capello - but I would never pick either of them to be Chelsea managers... And Pep is not going to openly critisice other managers...

[Peace. 4,352]

Now I'll get to FSW, Benitez hasn't proved anything at Chelsea besides being a tosser to us in his liverpool days. When AVB got kicked out it benefited us with Robbie the legend coming in, now that Robbie got kicked out and Rafa came in... It was only obvious it was going to go downhill, Rafa has made some shocking decisions so far which have cost us, we are far too inconsistent. Under Di Matteo we weren't inconsistent, we just had a rough patch (which went on for a bit too long), Benitez can't get the best out of his players, and he never will, how can we even trust the man?. Call me paranoid but i sometimes think he does some of the stuff on purpose, why aren't we signing anymore players? it's just getting stupid now. Torres is clearly playing awful and nothing is getting done about it, I have never seen so much protection for such a shit player in all my life.

The bold part is an interesting point.

As I stated some times ago, the Stopgap wasn't the right man to hire, and this for serveral reasons.

André Villas-Boas was sacked because he lost the dress-room. Lampard, Cole and Essien - to name a few - were more or less openly against him. Players didn't adhere to his project. Therefore, the portuguese was sacked. Though, the man who succeeded him was not some random man dropped from nowhere. It was Roberto di Matteo ; a guy who worked during six previous months with the team - a former player of the club and more importantly a club Legend. Furthermore, he knew some players (Terry) and got along very well with the vast majority of the squad. Hence he was a man respected by his players - and the players acknowledged him as their leader.

Plus, the context was special. The club was tearing apart. There was a bad atmosphere. The players got the manager sacked. There was a hunger to prove to the world that they were right to sack Villas-Boas. The players and the coach were welded together ; players rallied under di Matteo's project. There were hunger, passion, motivation and spirit.

Now, look at the situation. In a sportif aspect, we were not really better than what we were under the portuguese. Even though, the problem was not coming from a cleavage between the players and the coach. It was because we were simply not good enough ; and because peculiar event - the game against Manure (we weren't perfect before, but it was the turning point of the season, it broke something in our momentum).

The board sacked a Legend ; the man which lead us to our first Champions League. Even with his achievement, he was not granted a single chance. He was respected among the players - and was esteemed as well. Therefore, players took that as an injustice. They must have felt frustrated, disappointed and angry. All that to hire someone who said nasty things about Chelsea ; Terry, Lampard and Cech did not forget who was that man. Furthermore, his four last years were a big failure. He got Loserpool seventh. Then, despite being in charge the team which just won the Champions League, his few months at Inter were an epic failure. And finaly he spent two years jobless. What kind of message does that send to the players ? How can players respect a guy which has painted himself as a clown ? For the reasons aforementioned, he cannot be credible and legitimate into our players eyes.

That's where the board failed - they failed to recognize this problem before appoint him. It was a given that the graft would not succeed.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Rafa out; Steve Holland in.

[Hamilton 2,120]

Stuck with Rafa, stuck with Torres, Hazard missing for several games, losing all trophys, early out of CL, what a shit season..

Still, KTBFFH!!!