Eden Hazard

[Sheva. 5,373]

  On 29/12/2014 at 16:28, MrBlueGuy said:

Naaa he has been a winger until the 2nd half of last season, now he is basically a 2nd ST.

It's only now they changed his starting position.

He used to start at LW but always plays like a striker.

[LAM09 6,880]

  On 29/12/2014 at 16:24, MrExcalibur100 said:

Ronaldo hasn't been a real winger since 2006/2007. I'm surprised he is still called a winger.

He has been Real's LW for the majority of his time there.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 30/12/2014 at 02:30, LAM09 said:

He has been Real's LW for the majority of his time there.

His starting role is on the left but he plays in a free role and is even more advanced than Benzema most of the time. He's not a real winger. How difficult is that hard to understand?

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 30/12/2014 at 02:30, LAM09 said:

He has been Real's LW for the majority of his time there.

He said real winger and that's true. Ronaldo has never really functioned as a pure winger at Madrid.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Of the 1710 mins of Premier League football this season, Hazard has played 1671 mins. That's far too excessive for my liking. Looking at the list of PL midfielders and forwards on Whoscored.com, http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/4311/Stages/9155/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2014-2015, no other Champions League team has players in those positions that have accumulated so many minutes. The same is also true for Fabregas. We should have rotated both of them more, especially during the Christmas fixtures. I just hope they don't break down when we need them the most at the business end. It's happened to Hazard twice already.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

  On 30/12/2014 at 04:35, MrExcalibur100 said:

Of the 1710 mins of Premier League football this season, Hazard has played 1671 mins. That's far too excessive for my liking. Looking at the list of PL midfielders and forwards on Whoscored.com, http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/4311/Stages/9155/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2014-2015, no other Champions League team has players in those positions that have accumulated so many minutes. The same is also true for Fabregas. We should have rotated both of them more, especially during the Christmas fixtures. I just hope they don't break down when we need them the most at the business end. It's happened to Hazard twice already.

He already did get some holiday when and after Derby match. Jose said that. So he will not burnt out sooner, imo. Also one last match before he will have another break, as I think he will not play against Watford.

[LAM09 6,880]

  On 30/12/2014 at 04:04, MrExcalibur100 said:

His starting role is on the left but he plays in a free role and is even more advanced than Benzema most of the time. He's not a real winger. How difficult is that hard to understand?

He's a winger. Free role or not, that's his position. Nothing here to discuss!

[LAM09 6,880]

  On 30/12/2014 at 04:05, The Skipper said:

He said real winger and that's true. Ronaldo has never really functioned as a pure winger at Madrid.

I understood what he said, but his position is/was till recently LW. That's my point, and it's correct.

[Moros 86]

  On 30/12/2014 at 05:23, LAM09 said:

I understood what he said, but his position is/was till recently LW. That's my point, and it's correct.

If that's your point then it sadly isn't relevant to the discussion. As the discussion is about goals and a player's role. CR7 has a very different role in the Real side then Hazard has, which makes for difficult comparison. So if you want to say that CR7 played LW, well okay, but what of it? Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump. I know that wasn't relevant but it is equally true.

[Styles 9,790]

  On 30/12/2014 at 04:35, MrExcalibur100 said:

Of the 1710 mins of Premier League football this season, Hazard has played 1671 mins. That's far too excessive for my liking. Looking at the list of PL midfielders and forwards on Whoscored.com, http://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/4311/Stages/9155/PlayerStatistics/England-Premier-League-2014-2015, no other Champions League team has players in those positions that have accumulated so many minutes. The same is also true for Fabregas. We should have rotated both of them more, especially during the Christmas fixtures. I just hope they don't break down when we need them the most at the business end. It's happened to Hazard twice already.

And / if when he does eventually breakdown we will be told by many of our fellow supporters that he's just not as good as we think he is, he will never win this or that award, he isn't as good as so and so (who, conveniently, play far fewer minutes in less demanding leagues) etc. It's happened two years in a row already.

[LAM09 6,880]

  On 30/12/2014 at 08:37, Moros said:

If that's your point then it sadly isn't relevant to the discussion. As the discussion is about goals and a player's role. CR7 has a very different role in the Real side then Hazard has, which makes for difficult comparison. So if you want to say that CR7 played LW, well okay, but what of it? Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump. I know that wasn't relevant but it is equally true.

If you look at how the discussion started, I was referring his time Utd first and foremost.

[Nero 1,852]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAx5ZgWxvqk

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 30/12/2014 at 23:04, Mr. F9T said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAx5ZgWxvqk

It's funny how a player (Hazard for example vs Swansea) can beat 3-4 players then lay it off to another player (Oscar in the same game) who makes a simple pass that even I can do, to Remy to score and so on, and that's an assist. It's safe to say there are assists and there are ASSISTS in football. They are also dependent on if the recipient can score among many other things i.e attacking/scoring proficiency of the team in question. To me it's one of the most overrated stats in football (and also in other sports like basketball, but that's another story) , it should never be in the same sentence as goals.

It should be goals and created chances not goals & assists. That's just me anyway.

[Styles 9,790]

Doesn't score enough etc etc etc

Will never win Ballon d'Or etc etc etc

Not as good as whathisname etc etc etc

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 31/12/2014 at 01:45, MrExcalibur100 said:

It's funny how a player (Hazard for example vs Swansea) can beat 3-4 players then lay it off to another player (Oscar in the same game) who makes a simple pass that even I can do, to Remy to score and so on, and that's an assist. It's safe to say there are assists and there are ASSISTS in football. They are also dependent on if the recipient can score among many other things i.e attacking/scoring proficiency of the team in question. To me it's one of the most overrated stats in football (and also in other sports like basketball, but that's another story) , it should never be in the same sentence as goals.

It should be goals and created chances not goals & assists. That's just me anyway.

I feel the opposite...

Chances created are a farce. I do agree with you that some assists aren't that great, for example, that pass by Fabregas to Hazard against Leicester. It was all Hazard. He received in the sideline, far from the goal, dribbled a few, entered the box and shot. Such a goal shouldn't have an assist credited to it.

Now as for the situation you said... sorry, but we've seen many players miss the pass that even you would do. Willian misses a couple of them every match, so in that case, if the pass - no matter how easy - let someone with a clear cut chance to score, then it should be credited as an assist.

And I'm not sure if you're confusing what the chances created stats are or if you're only making a point. This play you're talking about doesn't have a chance created to Hazard. Chances created are simply the assists that didn't turn out into a goal. So if Remy had missed the goal, according to the way the stats work these days, Oscar - not Hazard - would have had a chance created to his account because chance created is by default the last pass before someone shoots on goal, hence why I hate those stats.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 31/12/2014 at 15:45, Barbara said:

And I'm not sure if you're confusing what the chances created stats are or if you're only making a point. This play you're talking about doesn't have a chance created to Hazard. Chances created are simply the assists that didn't turn out into a goal. So if Remy had missed the goal, according to the way the stats work these days, Oscar - not Hazard - would have had a chance created to his account because chance created is by default the last pass before someone shoots on goal, hence why I hate those stats.

(1) If you read my post again, I never said it did. I was only comparing the value of some assists and if anything, the example I cited should be called a Pre-assist.

(2) This is a very good point, Barbara, but can't you see how the same also holds true for actual assists? Remy scored and the assist was credited to Oscar but the person who did the dirty work of carrying the ball from midfield and unsettling Swansea's backline was Hazard. I remember something similar with Oscar and Ivanovic for a Costa goal vs Leicester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuJeyx9XSzM

Ok, Brana did a nice cut-back but that goal was "created" by Oscar. If anything, it shows how underrated some "pre-assists" are in football.

This article does a very good job of explaining the value of created chances over an assist and how created chances are reflective of the actual best playmakers in the league. Look, Gerrard had 13 assists in the PL last season but 11 of them came from set pieces. Hazard on the other hand created 92 chances for his team and only had 7 assists. It's silly. Or Ricky Lambert having more assists than Eriksen, Silva and Hazard. Yeah, right.

https://www.bsports.com/extratime/premier-league-2013-14-creativity-gerrard-hazard-nasri-silva#.VKQg4CvF-Sp

And comparing Hazard to himself in his first two seasons here, the assist stat suggests he was more creative in his first season here, but it fails to take into account such things as style of play and the fact Hazard could play off Juan Mata.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2013/2014/eden_hazard/126/64/454/0/p|premier_league/2012/2013/eden_hazard/126/2/454/0/p#chances_created/key_passes/assists#avg

[DYC. 7,542]

  On 31/12/2014 at 16:33, MrExcalibur100 said:

(1) If you read my post again, I never said it did. I was only comparing the value of some assists and if anything, the example I cited should be called a Pre-assist.

(2) This is a very good point, Barbara, but can't you see how the same also holds true for actual assists? Remy scored and the assist was credited to Oscar but the person who did the dirty work of carrying the ball from midfield and unsettling Swansea's backline was Hazard. I remember something similar with Oscar and Ivanovic for a Costa goal vs Leicester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuJeyx9XSzM

Ok, Brana did a nice cut-back but that goal was "created" by Oscar. If anything, it shows how underrated some "pre-assists" are in football.

This article does a very good job of explaining the value of created chances over an assist and how created chances are reflective of the actual best playmakers in the league. Look, Gerrard had 13 assists in the PL last season but 11 of them came from set pieces. Hazard on the other hand created 92 chances for his team and only had 7 assists. It's silly. Or Ricky Lambert having more assists than Eriksen, Silva and Hazard. Yeah, right.

https://www.bsports.com/extratime/premier-league-2013-14-creativity-gerrard-hazard-nasri-silva#.VKQg4CvF-Sp

And comparing Hazard to himself in his first two seasons here, the assist stat suggests he was more creative in his first season here, but it fails to take into account such things as style of play and the fact Hazard could play off Juan Mata.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2013/2014/eden_hazard/126/64/454/0/p|premier_league/2012/2013/eden_hazard/126/2/454/0/p#chances_created/key_passes/assists#avg

You have a point, and that's why you can't just blindly stare at stats, but the thing is, the same rules apply to everyone. There's a reason why the likes of Ozil, Fabregas, Messi, Silva, Ribery, Reus etc. always produce a high number of assists and others don't. They usually play the right ball at the right time and that's a quality in it's own right (of course the 'set-piece assisters' are different, another seperate quality, valuable as well).

Creating a high amount chances doesn't say everything either. Cutbacks and 'simple' passes leading to shots that didn't go in are created chances as well. Playing for a side that averages a high amount of shots per game helps a lot as well.

The only way you can truly judge a player is by watching matches but you have to understand the game. And I'm no Cruyff or Sacchi but I know a bit. If it's all about goals and assists for you (I'm talking in general here), more power to you. But Hazard has been without a doubt one of the better performers in football this season. Top 10 easily. I don't care where he stands in the lands of Goals&Assists.

Now it's time to win big trophies.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

  On 31/12/2014 at 17:08, DYC. said:

DYC., on 31 Dec 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

You have a point, and that's why you can't just blindly stare at stats, but the thing is, the same rules apply to everyone. There's a reason why the likes of Ozil, Fabregas, Messi, Silva, Ribery, Reus etc. always produce a high number of assists and others don't. They usually play the right ball at the right time and that's a quality in it's own right (of course the 'set-piece assisters' are different, another seperate quality, valuable as well).

And those players are also at the top of the created chances/key passes table. Generally. They also play for high scoring sides, which helps