🇧🇷 David Luiz

[Mouri_Matic 560]

not talking about success or quality here, but styles, characteristics.

It's like buying a Lamborghini and expecting the low upkeep of a honda.

My point remains his characteristics have not changed one bit, and Brazil is absolutely fine with that. Just like others would be, hence his current valuation. That's why the comparison makes no sense - try and sell Torres for 50m right now... remember Matic was worth what 5m then? That has nothing to do with Luiz.

Again, there are many systems in football. Jose's isn't the only one, nor is it the best one according to many, myself included.

Consistency is relative to the system and how well the players and their characteristics work in that system. People talking about consistency ignore the atrocious games the duo Gary and Terry had, conceding 2-3 goals per game.

Kind of agree with you but for the last part, no one is defending Cahill and many people wanted Terry out toward the end of last season. It all happens with time and what these players do with it. For example no one would say a single bad thing about Torres after that City game, but now we all know it is all just a fluke again. Many people are criticizing Luiz atm because he is not playing well and had far more negative periods(playing badly) in the past than good ones. For example I am sure if he scores the winner on Sunday no one would say A SINGLE BAD thing about Luiz even if he scores 2 own goals. The positive always outweigh the negative. But for Luiz, there isn't really positive to talk about. The one main thing that kept some people off his back: his goals have also dried up meaning he hardly contribute to the team atm.

That is why even legends like Cole and Lampard are being questioned atm, because they aren't playing well at all. So no matter how consistency or how good a player have been in the past, it is the present that count. That is why all the talk of potential is annoying.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Lamps and cole are being measured against their younger versions.

David is being measured against the player he never was, nor will be.

Goals were never really part of his repertoire, technical ability spec passing is. If his assets are deemed unimportant then yeah he should be sold.

[-Kaplan- 410]

Do we? This is Chelsea we are talking about, the Chelsea that signed Torres for £50m instead of Aguero for £38m, the same Chelsea that sign 6 top class attacking midfielders while leaving the team with 3 useless strikers that can't get into the worse teams in the league. So I doubt Chelsea knew what they were doing

I can't wait until him and Mata become great players at other teams; they deserve better than this pablum.

Liverpool still hang onto Suarez, yet we toss aside players who love the club, but make the weird mistake.

Or maybe it's just this forum. . . .

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Well this thread is depressing...

Anyway, I was just coming here to say that he had a very good game vs Swansea. Defensively, he was very good and offensively, his passing ability really catches opposition out.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Well this thread is depressing...

Anyway, I was just coming here to say that he had a very good game vs Swansea. Defensively, he was very good and offensively, his passing ability really catches opposition out.

Nonsense - David is the new Mikel...

Well, shouldn't you guys be out there trying to find out what happened to Phil?! you know, the real one, not the person who's been posting under his name lately.

[Azpinator 2,325]

Hey Volt what twitter rumors ?

At the end of the game Luiz hoofed the ball, instead of carry on with it. Have you watched the game ?

It was Thursday not Wednesday. Luiz being a part in the Higuain deal is the twitter rumor.

[lionsden 4,689]

On what basis is david luiz world class. what is the definition and criteria being used here.

let's not cheapen that word as it deserves to only be used in association with the elite and super consistent and reliable players.

[robsblubot 3,595]

On what basis is david luiz world class. what is the definition and criteria being used here.

let's not cheapen that word as it deserves to only be used in association with the elite and super consistent and reliable players.

can play football.

[lionsden 4,689]

can play football.

lol I always knew Zlatan and Ronaldo are world class centrebacks potentially (I will be using this word a lot now). they can play football and physically gifted too. let's buy the portuguese as JT's replacement since, apparently, he has the most important qualities of a world class defender i.e technical ability and built.

[robsblubot 3,595]

lol I always knew Zlatan and Ronaldo are world class centrebacks potentially (I will be using this word a lot now). they can play football and physically gifted too. let's buy the portuguese as JT's replacement since, apparently, he has the most important qualities of a world class defender i.e technical ability and built.

you are right... technical ability does not matter at all - kicking the football is overrated in football... And yes, CBs, like the GK, are completely different beasts as they don't have to kick the football all all.

you really do play a different game in England. We Brazilians are simple people indeed, because we rate/measure all the players who have to kick the football exactly the same way (that's why we have mostly shitty GKs): either you are good enough or well, go ahead and find a different profession.

The abilities you rate the most, composure and physicality, are really auxiliary. That's why passing and first touch are considered fundamental skills.

[Despiadado.Maleante 1,046]

Lol at Luiz being world class. The only world class cb's are thiago Silva, kompany and a fit vidic. Luiz can't be compared to any of these players

[lionsden 4,689]

you are right... technical ability does not matter at all - kicking the football is overrated in football... And yes, CBs, like the GK, are completely different beasts as they don't have to kick the football all all.

you really do play a different game in England. We Brazilians are simple people indeed, because we rate/measure all the players who have to kick the football exactly the same way (that's why we have mostly shitty GKs): either you are good enough or well, go ahead and find a different profession.

The abilities you rate the most, composure and physicality, are really auxiliary. That's why passing and first touch are considered fundamental skills.

Well we just seem to differ in our interpretation of the most important characteristics of great centrebacks which to me falls into two category.

Mental qualities: Determination,concentration, temperament, courage and decision making

Tactical awareness: positioning,anticipation, tackling, communication, organisation skills,aerial ability .. . .

technical ability falls below those qualities everyday of the week for me and like I said before, I will take a technically average player that possess the characteristics listed in abundance over a "David Luiz" everytime.

For example JT was never the quickest defender even in his prime, Vidic has never possessed good/great passing ability,Hyypia,Tony adams,Thuram, carragher et al were never the most technically mesmerizing defenders nor the quickest and cannavaro wasn't a freak of nature physically but they were all able to dominate due to the fact that they possessed and relied on those qualities which I believe are more important than technical ability and physical gifts.

[Tomo 21,751]

Lol at Luiz being world class. The only world class cb's are thiago Silva, kompany and a fit vidic. Luiz can't be compared to any of these players

Vidic? this is 2013 not 2009.

[lionsden 4,689]

Vidic? this is 2013 not 2009.

The 2013 version of Vidic (when fit) is still more reliable than Luiz same way JT has outperformed him this season. for some players, class is permanent

[Blue Warrior 109]

Vidic can only remember the world class days, when he sticks in a dvd. Still tough, just slowed down by father time. David Luiz is to unreliable to be trusted in a high pressure situation. The man is already in Barcelona.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Well we just seem to differ in our interpretation of the most important characteristics of great centrebacks which to me falls into two category.

Mental qualities: Determination,concentration, temperament, courage and decision making

Tactical awareness: positioning,anticipation, tackling, communication, organisation skills,aerial ability .. . .

technical ability falls below those qualities everyday of the week for me and like I said before, I will take a technically average player that possess the characteristics listed in abundance over a "David Luiz" everytime.

For example JT was never the quickest defender even in his prime, Vidic has never possessed good/great passing ability,Hyypia,Tony adams,Thuram, carragher et al were never the most technically mesmerizing defenders nor the quickest and cannavaro wasn't a freak of nature physically but they were all able to dominate due to the fact that they possessed and relied on those qualities which I believe are more important than technical ability and physical gifts.

Wow! All I can say is good luck to you and England, because you are going to need it.

Now, I have an idea based on your requirements: Chelsea should be recruiting players directly from the military! I mean they would have most if not all the qualities you demand. Of course the minor problem there is that they won't be able to play football, but like you said, technique is not at the top of your priorities.

You know we are discussing football here don't you? Not warfare... no heroics required... just to be able to kick a football.

BTW, that's a pretty shitty CB list you got there...

It's just a game.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

We all know luiz has his mistakes. We know he can make some like against cardiff. But its not like he does that in every match he plays.

We have a problem of breaking down teams that sit deep. Because our central midfielders dont know how to send a long pass, we need luiz against the smaller teams

Dont you notice how the movement of our attacking four gets better when luiz is on the ball since they know he can easily find them with a long pass??

These smaller teams sit deep and allow our center backs to hold the ball so if luiz doesnt play, we watch a borefest of terry and cahill pass to each other and then to ivanovic all game.

The positives outweigh the negatives in my opinion, especially when we are comparing them to the other option we have which is cahill.

Wow, you're attributing a lot of quality play to Luiz that there is simply no evidence for which is why you think the positives are a lot higher than they actually are. Our movement in the attacking midfield is literally not one iota better with Luiz. The problem with the attacking midfield's spacing is that they don't space well not that they don't expect long passes.And easily find them with a long pass? Seriously? Luiz will hit one or two of those long passes a game and miss about 5. You act as if he's picking out attacking players with ease as opposed to just kicking the ball up the pitch and hoping an attacker gets on to it which is usually what he does. And you can't ignore the negatives of such play. Turning the ball over is a negative. Kick the ball up the pitch leads to lack of organization and looseness of attack. And the point is that Luiz's actions don't actually lead to goals. For example, WAGNH looked at hockey assists (second assists) for the first half of the season last year. Luiz had 0 second assists. (Ryan Bertrand had 2) That is, for all the hitting the ball up the pitch, it basically never leads directly to goals.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Wow, you're attributing a lot of quality play to Luiz that there is simply no evidence for which is why you think the positives are a lot higher than they actually are. Our movement in the attacking midfield is literally not one iota better with Luiz. The problem with the attacking midfield's spacing is that they don't space well not that they don't expect long passes.

You fail to see the point im making. These long passing you've been underestimating is what gerrard and alonso do in their sleep. Unfortunately, we have ramires and lamps. None of them do that and we've been saying our pivot is weak and needs strengthening for 3 seasons now. What exactly do these people in the pivot lack?? Thats right, the long passing and vision from deep. Thats where luiz helps in the matter, especially against teams who sit back and let the CENTERBACKS hold the ball all day. Luiz presence in this situation is far better than a bore-fest of Terry passing to Cahill all game.

And easily find them with a long pass? Seriously? Luiz will hit one or two of those long passes a game and miss about 5. You act as if he's picking out attacking players with ease as opposed to just kicking the ball up the pitch and hoping an attacker gets on to it which is usually what he does. And you can't ignore the negatives of such play. Turning the ball over is a negative. Kick the ball up the pitch leads to lack of organization and looseness of attack.

Even if he hits 10 and gets 5 wrong, its still better than us aimlessly passing between our center backs and then complaining in the match day threads that we dont get the ball to our attackers quicker. That problem of luiz turning over possession dangerously was because he used to come out of the defense to try to pass the ball, but now if you notice of late, he stays deeper when distributing the pass so that if torres miss-controls it, the defensive shape is not lost and we are still safe because the opponents are all camping in their half. [notice im talking about smaller teams that sit deep]

And the point is that Luiz's actions don't actually lead to goals. For example, WAGNH looked at hockey assists (second assists) for the first half of the season last year. Luiz had 0 second assists. (Ryan Bertrand had 2) That is, for all the hitting the ball up the pitch, it basically never leads directly to goals.

Thats why we need to sort our striker problems. Luiz passes a perfect ball to Ba against sunderland, and he missed a clear one on one chance.

And another thing he is the centre back, comparing him to the left back who attacks most of the time is not a fair comparison.

Luiz is better than cahill for us, no matter how you twist it. If we had thiago silva or kompany, then i'll gladly put luiz on the bench. But as long as its cahill, he is only better when we are sitting deep and defending for our lives against the big teams. I havent said luiz is the best defender in the world, but he is more important than cahill for us in my opinion.

[bushman 2,043]

It was Thursday not Wednesday. Luiz being a part in the Higuain deal is the twitter rumor.

Ok great, I just added some amps to it, then.

[The only place to be 11,313]

you really do play a different game in England. We Brazilians are simple people indeed, because we rate/measure all the players who have to kick the football exactly the same way (that's why we have mostly shitty GKs): either you are good enough or well, go ahead and find a different profession.

The abilities you rate the most, composure and physicality, are really auxiliary. That's why passing and first touch are considered fundamental skills.

You're completely missing the point. Technique is important but so are the mental aspects of the game. I've seen you denounce these aspects of the game so many times, yet they're fundamental in EVERY sport.

It's got nothing to do with you being Brazilian but having a complete lack of knowledge of top-level sports. You can go through any sport and see that the BEST were almost always mentally stronger than their competitors (Jordan, Russell, Manning, Brady, Schumacher etc.). David Luiz is a technically brilliant player but lots of us have concerns over the mental aspect of his game and rather than defend it, you'd rather marginalise it's importance.