Politics & Stuff

[Muzchap 8,966]

My heart cries more and more ....http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/patrick-strickland/bombing-gaza-children-gives-me-orgasm-israelis-celebrate-slaughter-facebook

What have we become ....

Surely this isn't representative of the vast majority of Israeli's as Hamas is not representative of Palestinians.

It's the voice of vocal minority.

What they need to do is make a DMZ between the two countries and let the radicals go in and fight the old fashioned way and leave the normal law abiding, sensible, innocent people out of it...

Let both sides argue it out there - that's what I would do... Have both countries policing either side of the DMZ - you walk in with just your hands and brainwashed hatred - then see what kind of person walks back out... My bet a 'changed' person...

[Stingray 9,441]

Surely this isn't representative of the vast majority of Israeli's as Hamas is not representative of Palestinians.

It's the voice of vocal minority.

What they need to do is make a DMZ between the two countries and let the radicals go in and fight the old fashioned way and leave the normal law abiding, sensible, innocent people out of it...

Let both sides argue it out there - that's what I would do... Have both countries policing either side of the DMZ - you walk in with just your hands and brainwashed hatred - then see what kind of person walks back out... My bet a 'changed' person...

Muzchap, i like you. But this is happenings as are the plus 600 pictures of people being bombed in a de facto prison. To do nothing is a crime. It would be the same as to do nothing in the Shoah. Its a responsability. You seem to think stuff is pretty ok, but it is nuts. To think you can let them argue it out is the same as say : let the Warschau getto people talk it out with the occupier. Im not even kidding here. Get some background plz, i beg you. Even though i agree this is a minority ?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Regarding the religious debate on the previous pages, it's hard for people who don't know Arabic to know what I am talking about, but the text of the Qur'an is written in very old, very difficult Arabic. Someone like me reading it for the first time won't understand half of it. It is also incredibly unclear. The majority of the sentences can be interpreted in several manners (like most religious texts). So it goes without saying that the translations of the interpretation of any verse of the Qur'an can vary...A LOT!

Surely this isn't representative of the vast majority of Israeli's as Hamas is not representative of Palestinians.

It's the voice of vocal minority.

What they need to do is make a DMZ between the two countries and let the radicals go in and fight the old fashioned way and leave the normal law abiding, sensible, innocent people out of it...

Let both sides argue it out there - that's what I would do... Have both countries policing either side of the DMZ - you walk in with just your hands and brainwashed hatred - then see what kind of person walks back out... My bet a 'changed' person...

I'm sorry to say that 66 years of conflict can create quite a lot of extremists on both sides. Let me introduce you to the hottest hang-out in Sderot:

Israel-Gaza conflict: ‘Sderot cinema’ image shows Israelis with popcorn and chairs 'cheering as missiles strike Palestinian targets'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-sderot-cinema-image-shows-israelis-with-popcorn-and-chairs-cheering-as-missiles-strike-palestinian-targets-9602704.html

Humanity is DEAD.

[Dion 2,476]

Hopefully - pressure from all other countries will bring a speedy resolution to this conflict - it's 2014 and we as a World have not progressed beyond Medieval ways of resolving conflicts - that's the real travesty here...

Ideally, the best course of action would be having a neutral unified superior power to resolve conflicts between different countries according to a set of international laws agreed by every nation. It's the same concept as we have inside every country with our courthouses. The state acts as a neutral superior power and is represented by the judge who will solve those disputes with as little bias as possible according to national laws.

Unfortunately we're a long way from that kind of organization. United Nations doesn't even come close to that yet. They're a step in the right direction but as of right now they're a joke at dealing with those kind of conflicts. Long story short, most countries won't accept any decision imposed to them because none will like the idea of losing their indisputable sovereignty in their affairs and will be skeptical about how neutral any decision by the superior organization is. In addition, that organization should have more coercive power than any country individually or else we would see what happens nowadays. UN is against X action but it can't do jack shit, so Y country will do X anyway. All the punishment we have in International Law today is related to economical or political restrictions which is simply not enough for dealing with the utmost difficult situations. Add to that UN is biased as heck because it is controlled by the most powerful countries in the world, more often than not the decisions will go in their benefit, so there is also that.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Ideally, the best course of action would be having a neutral unified superior power to resolve conflicts between different countries according to a set of international laws agreed by every nation. It's the same concept as we have inside every country with our courthouses. The state acts as a neutral superior power and is represented by the judge who will solve those disputes with as little bias as possible according to national laws.

Unfortunately we're a long way from that kind of organization. United Nations doesn't even come close to that yet. They're a step in the right direction but as of right now they're a joke at dealing with those kind of conflicts. Long story short, most countries won't accept any decision imposed to them because none will like the idea of losing their indisputable sovereignty in their affairs and will be skeptical about how neutral any decision by the superior organization is. In addition, that organization should have more coercive power than any country individually or else we would see what happens nowadays. UN is against X action but it can't do jack shit, so Y country will do X anyway. All the punishment we have in International Law today is related to economical or political restrictions which is simply not enough for dealing with the utmost difficult situations. Add to that UN is biased as heck because it is controlled by the most powerful countries in the world, more often than not their decisions will go in their benefit, so there is also that.

The UN is more like a puppet show man. Totally incompetent.

[haranr 485]

Shocking. Seemingly brainwashed by israeli corporate media propaganda.

Happens on the other side as well.

[Dion 2,476]

The UN is more like a puppet show man. Totally incompetent.

You see how difficult it is to accept a power above your national state when even european countries have their struggles within the european union. And have in mind that european countries are very much alike culturally and even economically if you compare their situation to the discrepancy between every nation in the whole world. We're way too far from being able to solve international conflicts in a peaceful and righteous manner. Like Muzchap said, it's like we haven't evolved at all from those medieval times.

[Stingray 9,441]

Happens on the other side as well.

Yes but the shocking occupation plus the sheet amount of killings are not Haran. This is our point...

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You see how difficult it is to accept a power above your national state when even european countries have their struggles within the european union. And have in mind that european countries are very much alike culturally and even economically if you compare their situation to the discrepancy between every nation in the whole world. We're way too far from being able to solve international conflicts in a peaceful and righteous manner. Like Muzchap said, it's like we haven't evolved at all from those medieval times.

It has nothing really to do with evolving. The greed and power are part of the human trait. What you see is basically what has been going through the world since the existence of man. Only the tools and the means used differ. That is why you see nations rise to be the most powerful and fall. That is why you have a cycle.

[Dion 2,476]

Regarding the religious debate on the previous pages, it's hard for people who don't know Arabic to know what I am talking about, but the text of the Qur'an is written in very old, very difficult Arabic. Someone like me reading it for the first time won't understand half of it. It is also incredibly unclear. The majority of the sentences can be interpreted in several manners (like most religious texts). So it goes without saying that the translations of the interpretation of any verse of the Qur'an can vary...A LOT!

I'm sorry to say that 66 years of conflict can create quite a lot of extremists on both sides. Let me introduce you to the hottest hang-out in Sderot:

Israel-Gaza conflict: ‘Sderot cinema’ image shows Israelis with popcorn and chairs 'cheering as missiles strike Palestinian targets'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-sderot-cinema-image-shows-israelis-with-popcorn-and-chairs-cheering-as-missiles-strike-palestinian-targets-9602704.html

Humanity is DEAD.

You see, that's one of my main problems with pretty much every religion. Speaking as a law student, nothing but problems and injustice can come from following a set of rules that leave margin to a lot of different interpretations.

It has nothing really to do with evolving. The greed and power are part of the human trait. What you see is basically what has been going through the world since the existence of man. Only the tools and the means used differ. That is why you see nations rise to be the most powerful and fall. That is why you have a cycle.

I didn't mean it in evolutionary sense, but in progress sense. Can't it have that meaning in English?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You see, that's one of my main problems with pretty much every religion. Speaking as a law student, nothing but problems and injustice can come from following a set of rules that leave margin to a lot of different interpretations.

I didn't mean it in evolutionary sense, but in progress sense.

I know what you meant . You see as a human race we progress technologically and scientifically. Those are controllable tangible factors. But ethically we remain the same, good and bad and constant fights within. The natural human traits that contain good and bad. Part of these traits is ambition. When ambition is directed to towards wealth excessively that might turn into greed. Ambition of power turns to dictatorship etc. You get what I mean? There are constant human traits and temptations that exist. Depending on ones will, external and internal environment, these either good traits prevail, bad traits prevail or one keeps stumbling back and forth between them.

[Dion 2,476]

I know what you meant . You see as a human race we progress technologically and scientifically. Those are controllable tangible factors. But ethically we remain the same, good and bad and constant fights within. The natural human traits that contain good and bad. Part of these traits is ambition. When ambition is directed to towards wealth excessively that might turn into greed. Ambition of power turns to dictatorship etc. You get what I mean? There are constant human traits and temptations that exist. Depending on ones will, external and internal environment, these either good traits prevail, bad traits prevail or one keeps stumbling back and forth between them.

Oh, don't be so pessimistic! There are little victories. Just look at women rights. I know muslims see it a bit different. But women have come a long way on equality with men in the western world, which I find it amazing. In Brazil homossexual individuals have been acquiring a lot of rights lately as well. It may be happening slower and in smaller steps than I would like but it is happening. I gotta go to the dentist now though. Cheers.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

You see, that's one of my main problems with pretty much every religion. Speaking as a law student, nothing but problems and injustice can come from following a set of rules that leave margin to a lot of different interpretations.

That is very true, indeed. The vast majority of religious people can be manipulated very easily and that can be taken advantage of politically (obviously the prime example being USA and the UK paying Sheikhs to preach 'jihad' against the Soviet Union in Afganistan and Chechnya in the 80s).

On the other hand, I've seen people do incredible acts of goodness because they believe that god will reward them for it. And I'm talking about incredible acts that I would honestly not do and that take you completely by surprise, done even for absolute strangers. I mean like someone poor giving all their food to an even poorer family or a family letting refugees sleep in their house while they sleep in a car...etc.

I know this sounds weird coming from an atheist, but I often argue with other atheists that a place like the middle east needs religion to protect moral values. We just have not developed the cultural (can't find the right word here, beliefs? norms? traits? values? none of those really, but probably a mix of them all) to replace religion.

[haranr 485]

Yes but the shocking occupation plus the sheet amount of killings are not Haran. This is our point...

You are not objective.

[haranr 485]

Sadly, this conflict won't end soon. Both sides need to change approach towards peace. I will do my best as an Israeli citizen who recruits in less than two weeks to change the approach of many right-wing Israelis. I can't force but I can try and I have succeed in the past. An approach that will lead to a solution. I hope people at the other side are doing the same if possible.

[Stingray 9,441]

You are not objective.

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me however...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see. I wish you good luck in the army. May you like general Peled, Niko Peled, Avrami from Sin Beth and many others become more peaceful when you get out.

[haranr 485]

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

[haranr 485]

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see.

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

[Stingray 9,441]

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

[haranr 485]

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

I completely agree. I do not support the Israel of now. I support the Israel of Rabin! Of Barak! My friend how can you forget the past??? I mean it's part of the conflict. You should not only put 100% focus on what's happening now. BTW, please answer my post that I posted 12 minutes ago. I really want to hear your opinion. Thanks.