Politics & Stuff

[bushman 2,043]

Well it's either that or I give harnar a warning for abusive behaviour and you a warning for racism. You have offended him and he has offended you. Your call, warning or leniency.

Where do you see racism in my postings ? Does the truth hurts ?

[Toli 977]

Where do you see racism in my postings ? Does the truth hurts ?

Likve you ever have been to any of the places and you know the truth lol. and also at a conflict of more than 60 years, there cant be no "truth". both sides made errors and faults and both are at fault for the situation they are in. blaming one side is just plain dumb or anti-zionist/anti-muslim call it whatever you want. there are always 2 sides to a story. why dont you bring up the tons and tons of rocket attacks towards israel? or the bombs towards israel? because the truth hurts you, to see, that both are at fault? why dont you bring up Hamas, a group who was voted in a democratic way? and so on and so on. but its modern nowadays to scream fuck israel and fuck zionist. as it is modern nowadays to say 9/11 was an inside job and so on. conspirac theories are the Zeitgeist of our time at the moment and people made a hell of money with it. and anti-zionism is the modern way to hide (often, not always) anti-semitism. Israel is in a special situation, all neighbors are their enemies and they are 24/7 in fear of attacks. but most people cant understand it, because they are not involved in this situation, beside sitting at their pc or TV and watchiing it and making up their mind afte rwatching 1 conspiracy film or reading one article.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Obviously you two can't discuss this calmly and respectfully, so please just leave the discussion where it is and agree to disagree. I appreciate that you each have your own take on the matter, but this is a football forum after all and there is no need to fight over politics.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Likve you ever have been to any of the places and you know the truth lol. and also at a conflict of more than 60 years, there cant be no "truth". both sides made errors and faults and both are at fault for the situation they are in. blaming one side is just plain dumb or anti-zionist/anti-muslim call it whatever you want. there are always 2 sides to a story. why dont you bring up the tons and tons of rocket attacks towards israel? or the bombs towards israel? because the truth hurts you, to see, that both are at fault? why dont you bring up Hamas, a group who was voted in a democratic way? and so on and so on. but its modern nowadays to scream fuck israel and fuck zionist. as it is modern nowadays to say 9/11 was an inside job and so on. conspirac theories are the Zeitgeist of our time at the moment and people made a hell of money with it

Of course both made mistakes, but you can't say that both are at fault because you would be confusing the cause with the reaction and equating the victim with the oppressor. You can't look at the situation with the eyes of today and ignore the reasons that lead to things being how they are.

[Toli 977]

Of course both made mistakes, but you can't say that both are at fault because you would be confusing the cause with the reaction and equating the victim with the oppressor. You can't look at the situation with the eyes of today and ignore the reasons that lead to things being how they are.

well, they had the opportunity at first, to get a lot of land. they refused it, started wars, lost the wars and lost more territory. you can also ask the question, if a nation, who lost 6 million people (would equate like 10% of Englands population) hasnt got the right to get an own contry, on the old place where they have been living 1000 of years ago and got driven out of it. Israel aint it fault that they are defending themselves and won the wars against all the coutnries they had one. and they also arent at fault that Hitler tried to kill all of them, arent they? I think that if your nation would be in this sort of situation, you also would have watned a country, where you can reunite with your fellow man and so on, dont you? especially when a lot of refugees, who tries to go other countries after the WW 2 were just send away like animals.

[bushman 2,043]

Of course both made mistakes, but you can't say that both are at fault because you would be confusing the cause with the reaction and equating the victim with the oppressor. You can't look at the situation with the eyes of today and ignore the reasons that lead to things being how they are.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/17/illegal-israeli-settlement-construction-rose-by-70-in-2013/

Illegal settlements condemned by the whole world, but the Jews keep building, why ? See above.

[bushman 2,043]

well, they had the opportunity at first, to get a lot of land. they refused it, started wars, lost the wars and lost more territory. you can also ask the question, if a nation, who lost 6 million people (would equate like 10% of Englands population) hasnt got the right to get an own contry, on the old place where they have been living 1000 of years ago and got driven out of it. Israel aint it fault that they are defending themselves and won the wars against all the coutnries they had one. and they also arent at fault that Hitler tried to kill all of them, arent they? I think that if your nation would be in this sort of situation, you also would have watned a country, where you can reunite with your fellow man and so on, dont you? especially when a lot of refugees, who tries to go other countries after the WW 2 were just send away like animals.

No nation has the right to displace others, steal their land.

[haranr 485]

No nation has the right to displace others, steal their land.

You started it, by claiming the "JEWS" did that, do that' think that. You have no clue once again and you are obviously offending all the Jewish people.

We do have a racist Jewish population here in Israel but they are a small part. Israel has gone in the wrong way sometimes but so as the Palestinian people if not more!

And just to be clear! Almost EVERY nation displaced other and "stole" got territory in a war that in this case the other side started.

[haranr 485]

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/17/illegal-israeli-settlement-construction-rose-by-70-in-2013/

Illegal settlements condemned by the whole world, but the Jews keep building, why ? See above.

The settlements are WRONG! I agree with you.

But the articles that you are reading are absolutely not objective .

[bushman 2,043]

The settlements are WRONG! I agree with you.

But the articles that you are reading are absolutely not objective .

How many times do you need to be told not to reply to me ? Read on ! Do not read, do not reply to my postings !

[haranr 485]

How many times do you need to be told not to reply to me ? Read on ! Do not read, do not reply to my postings !

How can I not replay to this shit. Someone needs to stop that.

[bushman 2,043]

How can I not replay to this shit. Someone needs to stop that.

[yuvala 2,167]

The palestinians are taught IN SCHOOL and kindergardens from a very young age to hate the jews, they are basicaly brainwashed. When someone blows himself up and kills jews, he's considered a hero, it brings pride to his family.

Just look at this:

And yet you think the jews are the only ones to blame.

[bushman 2,043]

The palestinians are taught IN SCHOOL and kindergardens from a very young age to hate the jews, they are basicaly brainwashed. When someone blows himself up and kills jews, he's considered a hero, it brings pride to his family.

Just look at this:

And yet you think the jews are the only ones to blame.

It´s the direct, the only way to respond to illegal Jewish settlements. These people are deprived, oppressed by Jewish expansion policies.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

well, they had the opportunity at first, to get a lot of land. they refused it, started wars, lost the wars and lost more territory. you can also ask the question, if a nation, who lost 6 million people (would equate like 10% of Englands population) hasnt got the right to get an own contry, on the old place where they have been living 1000 of years ago and got driven out of it. Israel aint it fault that they are defending themselves and won the wars against all the coutnries they had one. and they also arent at fault that Hitler tried to kill all of them, arent they? I think that if your nation would be in this sort of situation, you also would have watned a country, where you can reunite with your fellow man and so on, dont you? especially when a lot of refugees, who tries to go other countries after the WW 2 were just send away like animals.

You're mixing up A LOT of stuff in there and missing even more stuff. First let me clear up a couple of things: The Palestinians were NEVER genuinely offered any land to live peacefully. The Israeli plan has always been and still is to occupy the land from the Laytani River in Lebanon to the Suez canal in Egypt. And even if they were offered some land (which again they were not) why in the world would they accept that? The land is after all theirs. It's like someone came into your house, said it was his now and then offered to give you the living room back and said you're being unreasonable for taking it.

Secondly, the notion that they have the right to occupy the land because they lived there 3000 years ago is just laughable. It's like saying to 300 million Americans to clear out because the Indians want their land, and by that logic you should give half of Europe back to the Mongols, or even east Europe as well as Spain and Portugal back to the Arabs. It's just beyond ridiculous. It doesn't work that way. Lands and nations and cultures evolve, they don't just go and come so suddenly. A lot of the original inhabitants of the old Israel converted to Christianity 2000 years ago and then a lot of those converted to Islam 600 years later. So most of the Palestinians who were being kicked out of their homes are as much the descendants of the original Israeli people as the people who were brought in to replace them except they had actually stayed in their land for all this time and made a home of Palestine.

And even if you ignore all that, are you really saying that the answer to the racism against Jews in Europe is to murder thousands, evacuate millions from their homes and create a racist state that is destined to always be at conflict with it's surroundings? (PS: If you think Hitler invented racism against Jews, you really need to read up on European history). There is no logical explanation to what happened in the early 20th century in Palestine. There is no angle that makes this "fair" or "right". But it happened anyway and it cannot be undone. A solution has to be found to satisfy most of the people and it won't happen soon.

But both you and me have thrown a lot of stuff in the air here, so just to make sure you, and everyone reading this, understand how happened, let me draw you a timeline of the events:

- At the end of the 19th century, a corrupt and aging Ottoman empire ruled the region. Arabs were largely being marginalized and oppressed. The British, French, Russians and Germans (was still called Prussia at the time) had established special privileges in mount Lebanon under the banner of protecting religious minorities in an attempt to weaken the Empire from within. Muslims, Christians and even a Jewish minority lived peacefully in the economic center of the region: Palestine.

-1914: World War 1 started with the Ottoman Empire allying with Germany.

- 1915: In a continuation of their efforts to dismantle the Empire, the French and British made a secret agreement to divide the Arab lands between the two countries. The Zionists, who now had a large and growing influence on the politics in Europe got in on the negotiations. The British eager to please the Zionists who held some of the biggest positions in Europe and could genuinely affect the war added an "International Zone" to the plan which was intended to be the destination of Jewish immigrants from Europe.

- 1916: After failing against the Ottoman Empire in the Balkan, the British realized that they needed the help of the Arabs. So they promised Al Sherif Hussein that the Arabs will be allowed to rule their own land, from the gulf to Syria if they in exchange aim the Allies in the war. The Arabs agreed and started the "Arab revolt" against the empire.

- 1917: The British finally decided to actually go through with a Jewish state in Palestine. After contemplating places like Seychelles and Madagascar, the British decided that having an ally state in the region is in the best future for them in the long run. Note that all this was happening at the start of the oil revolution with oil being discovered in the region. This resulted in the Balfour Declaration.

- 1918: The Arab revolt was a success and the Ottomans were defeated. Al Shariff Hussein started negotiations with all the different regions in the Arab world to create a unified government. A temporary government was created headed by Rida Al Rikabi.

- 1919: World War 1 ended. British and French soldiers landed on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean and declared Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Iraq (there was no such thing as Jordan back then), the lands they promised to the Arabs, as occupied land.

The US, who believe it or not were adored in the region and actually genuinely stood for democracy and what's right in the world at that time, sent the Kind-Crane commission to the middle east to assess the situation and stand on the people's demands. They concluded that:

"...the American people as a whole should realize that if the American government decided to support the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, they are committing the American people to the use of force in that area, since only by force can a Jewish state in Palestine be established or maintained." The report noted that there is a principle that the wishes of the local population need to be taken into account and that there is widespread anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria, and the holy nature of the land to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews must preclude solely Jewish dominion. It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

- 1920: The San Ramon conference stripped the Arabs of every right to rule their own land. The French occupied Lebanon and Syria while British occupied Palestine and Iraq after small battles. In order to shut the KSA up, the state of Jordan was created and given to King Abdullah, one of the royal family of KSA.

After that, as planned, the British started a huge Jewish immigration from Europe to Palestine and gave them protection and privileges over the locals. The British took their time assembling, funding and arming an army of the newly arrived Jewish population.

- 1948: Feeling the Jewish army was strong enough and the international political climate was suiting since the world was still busy with outcomes of World War 2, the British finally oversaw the "independence" of the State of Israel. Thousands of Palestinians killed, millions thrown out of their homes and made to be come refugees in Lebanon, Syrian and Jordan where they still till this day live as refugees in camps that aren't suited to even store cattle!

After that, naturally a lot of Arab states rose to the aid of the Palestinians since they are practically the same nation with the same history. Defeats were inevitable, betrayals happened and resistance rose and fell and then rose up again and the Palestinian cause has been the number one used and abused cause in the Arab world since.

So there's the story of how the State of Israel came to be for you. Obviously there are bound to be a few things that are not clear there because you could write a book about every single sentence; that's how vast and complicated the subject is. But feel free to ask me about anything or look it up for yourself if you want something more reliable.