Politics & Stuff

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I havent watched the video or shared it and am not scared or being irrational. Did you actually read what i wrote ? I am not suddenly getting all scared of islam, I have many muslim friends

I was discussing with Seif British jihadism, and the fundamental question that is part of that-what it means to be British that tends to be overlooked seeing as the murderer has a london accent. I wouldnt pretend to understand whats going on in Beirut, but can tell you a bit about Asians in the UK.

In British society, the appeal of the jihadist youth culture represents the crystallisation of, first, a sense of detachment from the cultural values of Western society, and secondly an open rejection of those values. What often looks like a sudden conversion to radical Islam by an impetuous or confused young man is actually usually preceded by the detachment of that individual from a way of life that has failed to provide him with any purpose. Sometimes, this conversion mutates into an intense hatred of the West, and in a few cases it can lead people towards an ISIS training camp in Syria.

Actually that was aimed at TOPTB, not you. I only quoted your post because it put in better words what I was trying to say and better explained that even if the crimes are hideous they are not a threat to civilized life.

Sorry, I would have explained more but I had assumed you had read the discussion between me and TOPTB on the previous couple of pages.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Actually that was aimed at TOPTB, not you. I only quoted your post because it put in better words what I was trying to say and better explained that even if the crimes are hideous they are not a threat to civilized life.

Sorry, I would have explained more but I had assumed you had read the discussion between me and TOPTB on the previous couple of pages.

Lolz. I did later actually think you were doing a Tom and been drinking

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

It's true that ISIS need to be exterminated. These animals simply can't be considered human anymore. But even when they are stopped, that doesn't halt the symptom of the problem, which is Islamic fundamentalism. Another "ISIS" will eventually come out of the woodwork again. 10 years ago, it was Al-Qaeda, today it's ISIS. The problem is that the people with enough power and political clout don't seem that bothered in tackling Islamofascism. There is a lot of self denial and lack of honesty. While everyone is talking about ISIS, Boko Haram is also still carrying out unspeakable acts of terror (open shooting, beheadings, kidnappings) against the Christians in Northern Nigeria on a similar scale to what ISIS are doing in Iraq and Syria. It just gets less media attention.

http://www.voanews.com/content/suspected-boko-haram-kidnap-100-in-northern-nigeria/2414283.html

This time around, they kidnapped over 100 boys. It will probably get less media attention.

Youre right the tackling of it is selective. Mujahadeen were the US best friend in the 80s. ISIS only became a 'problem' when they threatened US interests in Iraq. That is what is wrong with intervention for selfish reasons dressed up as altruism, it creates more problems than it solves.

The West’s handwringing and prevarication over the fate of the Yazidi people facilitated the rise of ISIS. First, the Western invasion of Iraq destabilised the careful political equilibrium in that nation, allowing the emergence of political and sectarian tensions which had been held relatively in check for a significant period of time. Behind the mayhem in northern Iraq, there’s a larger story about the lethal folly of casually removing state structures and state institutions in divided, fragile nations, as the West did to Iraq in the 2000s

One of the biggest myths is that teh West did not intervene in Syria. It has been destabilising and de-legitimising Assads regime for several years, again creating a vacuum into which ISIS can flourish.

Now theres the ‘Something Must Be Done’ lobby, the ‘Do Something’ campaigners for Western intervention overseas, actively discouraging and even demonising political scrutiny of the complex causes of global conflicts...bbbbut legitimising further colonial intervention in the future, thus the divide and rule so beloved of 19th century plunderers, will continue.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Both Nazism and Communism are prime examples of a cultural victory.

This is at the very heart of what I am saying:

You want to fight ISIS? Start by not watching that video and if you do watch it, don't share it. They want you scared. I already told you about how they use professional effects on their videos to make them scarier. Their power is in how scary they look and sound.

They have about 50-70 thousand fighters, less than any of the armies in the region, yet they've cause havoc in the whole region and scared the whole world. They currently hold regions with millions of civilians who do not support them. But no one dares stand up to them.

You are currently exactly as they want you. Scared and subsequently irrational.

There's nothing wrong with being concerned about the possibility of attacks by 'extremist' Muslims in this country. We've had it before on the streets of London from a group of people whose values simply don't correspond with our own. They are an enemy, they need to be dealt with.

That's not irrational.

It's true that ISIS need to be exterminated. These animals simply can't be considered human anymore. But even when they are stopped, that doesn't halt the symptom of the problem, which is Islamic fundamentalism.

Spot on.

[Kieran. 6,317]

It is when youre being blatantly Islamophobic.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

There's nothing wrong with being concerned about the possibility of attacks by 'extremist' Muslims in this country. We've had it before on the streets of London from a group of people whose values simply don't correspond with our own. They are an enemy, they need to be dealt with.

That's not irrational.

It's not irrational to want to carpet bomb a huge region with millions of civilians in it?!

It is completely irrational to think that you are the targeted and under threat here when an entire region has been absolutely devastated by these extremists.

I can't leave my house without getting stuck in a 2-3 hour traffic because every single car has to be searched for explosives at the entrance of the city. You literally can't park anywhere because no one would let you for fear of car bombs .More than half the stores in my area have gone bankrupt and closed down. And we live in probably the most stable country in the region at the moment.

Tens of thousands have been killed. Countries like Syria and Iraq have been completely destroyed. There are millions of refugees. And things are only getting worse. And you think that you are the ones under threat and you are the ones targeted? Because these barbaric mercenaries don't correspond with your values? With what society in the world does beheading and cannibalism agree?

This isn't a British issue and this isn't a British issue, this is first and foremost an imminent threat to the existence of the middle east. This is secondly a humanitarian and global cultural issue that the whole world needs to stand up together.

They are a much lesser threat to you than smoking, alcoholism or even speeding. What are you doing for those causes?

You aren't at war and your values are not under attack. That's just what your government and media want you to believe because a scared citizen at war would do and justify almost anything in the name of patriotism.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It's not irrational to want to carpet bomb a huge region with millions of civilians in it?!

It is completely irrational to think that you are the targeted and under threat here when an entire region has been absolutely devastated by these extremists.

I can't leave my house without getting stuck in a 2-3 hour traffic because every single car has to be searched for explosives at the entrance of the city. You literally can't park anywhere because no one would let you for fear of car bombs .More than half the stores in my area have gone bankrupt and closed down. And we live in probably the most stable country in the region at the moment.

Move then.

This isn't a British issue and this isn't a British issue, this is first and foremost an imminent threat to the existence of the middle east. This is secondly a humanitarian and global cultural issue that the whole world needs to stand up together.

My concern is Britain, not the Middle East.

They are a much lesser threat to you than smoking, alcoholism or even speeding. What are you doing for those causes?

Bizarre comparison.

You aren't at war and your values are not under attack. That's just what your government and media want you to believe because a scared citizen at war would do and justify almost anything in the name of patriotism.

So 7/7 didn't happen? Lee Rigby wasn't half-decapitated on the street by two Muslims?

Look I know that there's a train of thought that our evil media is in bed with the government to scare the population but that does a disservice to the level of despicableness of the views some people in this country hold. That type of thought is against centuries of progressive work done in this country to give people certain freedoms. We won't give them up easily.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It is when youre being blatantly Islamophobic.

I don't like Islam as an ideology. Sorry, but I was raised to have respect for women, homosexuals and people's individual freedoms. I also don't like a lot of other religions, cults or sects.

Now I know kiddywinks nowadays throw around words like Islamophobic (especially on the Internet, behind their keyboards but never actually to someone's face) but that's their choice. Personally I think it's reductive and a little flippant but each to their own.

Fortunately I live in a country where I have the freedom to express a dislike for ideologies, religions and cults.

I also dislike Scientology and Catholicism.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Islamophobes defending their Islamophobia? Bye.

[Spike 12,049]

Islam over history has been quite progressive only in the last half century or so has Islam been plagued with 'Jihadists', extremists and backwards thinking. It wasn't until the 1950s that Islamic fundalmentalism starting existing.

Islam has never been the problem. The people in charge of these Muslim countries are the problem, they've betrayed their people and let them down for a long time.

[Roquila 1,335]

I actually understand people that are scared of Muslims. The shit you see everyday on TV is scary.

But as Spike said, Islam isn't Islam anymore, it changed too. Religions have become way more extreme and violent these 10 years.

[We Hate Scouse 10,327]

I don't like Islam as an ideology. Sorry, but I was raised to have respect for women, homosexuals and people's individual freedoms. I also don't like a lot of other religions, cults or sects.

Now I know kiddywinks nowadays throw around words like Islamophobic (especially on the Internet, behind their keyboards but never actually to someone's face) but that's their choice. Personally I think it's reductive and a little flippant but each to their own.

Fortunately I live in a country where I have the freedom to express a dislike for ideologies, religions and cults.

I also dislike Scientology and Catholicism.

What's your view on religion as a whole?

[The only place to be 11,313]

What's your view on religion as a whole?

Briefly...

Most of the time they're created by an elite (usually men) to control the masses. They're inherently corrupt(ing), dangerous but I can also see the appeal of them. They tend to have an unhealthy obsession with women's sexuality, fearing it and going to quite extreme lengths to 'control' it.

I really don't have a problem with people being religious though. I'm sure for many people it actually helps them in their day-to-day lives and that's probably a beautiful thing, but the problem is when it affects others that I take issue with it. Things like gay rights, women's rights etc. are invariably affected by religious beliefs and that's when it is open to criticism.

Generally though I treat religion like a treat any other type of ideological set of beliefs which is why words like Islamophobe seem so silly. There are probably hundreds of religious or political beliefs I dislike to varying degrees, yet that is the only one I have a phobia about?? Why not Scientoligiphobe (if that's even the word) or Naziphobe?

Anyway, a very brief outline of what I think about religion. The reason I bring up Scientology is because it's a modern-day miracle in that it's a religion/cult that you can clearly see has been fabricated by a bit of a nutter, yet it's not any different from any other religion out there. It's essentially a blueprint for deconstructing all other types of cult of belief systems. Anyways....

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I actually understand people that are scared of Muslims. The shit you see everyday on TV is scary.

But as Spike said, Islam isn't Islam anymore, it changed too. Religions have become way more extreme and violent these 10 years.

People assume now that religion is the cause of violence and want it scrapped from existence. It's not religion that's the problem, it's human nature to fight.

In the past, people fought to gain power and could fight as they please because of less international laws. (without laws, some in Israel will crush Gaza totally, many more ISIS/bokoharams will force Islam/sharia laws down our throats or kill us, Russia will take Ukraine by force, People who want to force democracy on everyone so they can be on top economically ie. indirect colonisation will be more)

People are naive to think everyone has moved on, from people who kill for personal interest and gain. Humans are humans, we want more power/money.

How will weapon producers sell their weapons if there is no conflicts?? There will always be conflict for these reasons, we can only hope for smaller scale conflicts for the sake of human life

[The only place to be 11,313]

People assume now that religion is the cause of violence and want it scrapped from existence. It's not religion that's the problem, it's human nature to fight.

Stupidity and desperation are the causes of violence - religion is just a very good way of channeling it in a particular direction. These 'angry young men' who travel to fight for IS are disenfranchised and this form of Islam gives them a very clear, easy to follow structure. It tells them who to blame, who to fight in the name of and what they'll get in return for it (more than the crap life they've got laid out for them). There's probably a sense of fraternity in that life and they probably get a sense of achievement they wouldn't otherwise. It's not a coincidence that the Middle East has some terrifyingly high rates of illiteracy and also some terrifying religious nutballs.

[Roquila 1,335]

Briefly...

Most of the time they're created by an elite (usually men) to control the masses. They're inherently corrupt(ing), dangerous but I can also see the appeal of them. They tend to have an unhealthy obsession with women's sexuality, fearing it and going to quite extreme lengths to 'control' it.

I really don't have a problem with people being religious though. I'm sure for many people it actually helps them in their day-to-day lives and that's probably a beautiful thing, but the problem is when it affects others that I take issue with it. Things like gay rights, women's rights etc. are invariably affected by religious beliefs and that's when it is open to criticism.

Generally though I treat religion like a treat any other type of ideological set of beliefs which is why words like Islamophobe seem so silly. There are probably hundreds of religious or political beliefs I dislike to varying degrees, yet that is the only one I have a phobia about?? Why not Scientoligiphobe (if that's even the word) or Naziphobe?

Anyway, a very brief outline of what I think about religion. The reason I bring up Scientology is because it's a modern-day miracle in that it's a religion/cult that you can clearly see has been fabricated by a bit of a nutter, yet it's not any different from any other religion out there. It's essentially a blueprint for deconstructing all other types of cult of belief systems. Anyways....

You're being called an Islamophobe because Muslims generally seem to be more touched about their religion. I live in a country where 90% of the people are Muslims, let me tell you how many of them tick.

Most of them are as close minded as it gets.

The most fearsome creature for them are women, everytime they see a women with a skirt they look away and say that's a devil in a human body.

You drink alchool? You cannot be their friend, ever.

You don't believe in god? Shame on you, you cunt, god will kill you with lightning , you will feel his wrath. (This is the everyday shit i have to deal with btw)

You are a Christian? Your religion is a disgrace, my god created your religion but then he created my religion 600 years later and therefore my religion is better than yours because my religion is the newest one.

You go to clubs with your friends at night? You will go to hell and burn for an eternity(the concept of eternity in Islam doesn't actually mean 'Eternity'. Eternity means 'Until doomsday')

Your sister has a boyfriend but isn't married? What a whore, it's bad enough she doesn't wear a hijab but she also has a boyfriend. She will burn in hell for an eternity.

And there are some rare cases.... These rare cases have so many good things in them that i cannot describe. There is this thing with good religious people that i love but cannot describe. They are so wise sometimes and they speak in a very friendly way but yeah, that's the rare case.

Question for you now(or anybody else who cares to answer)

Do you think that Christians are generally more peacefull and aren't so insecure about their religion?

[The only place to be 11,313]

Do you think that Christians are generally more peacefull and aren't so insecure about their religion?

I think you could publish a comic image satirising Jesus, Mary, Joseph and God himself without the author having to go into hiding for his own safety.

I think a respected author could write a book about referencing these figures without having a religious leader putting a contract out on his life.

I think a comedian could feel comfortable telling a joke on TV without the broadcaster feeling the need to censor it for the safety of their employees.

Christians do tend to have that whole 'turn the other cheek' mentality, although they can get a bit protesty when a comedian writes a play involving Jerry Springer and Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Springer:_The_Opera#Protests_and_controversy

We also had the controversy with Monty Python's The Life of Brian in the 1970s, but John Cleese didn't have to check under his car for explosive devices of a morning. The most he had to do was defend it on a late-night chat show to a Bishop (who it transpired may have had some rather dark secrets in his closet, quelle surprise).

So whilst I do think you can look at all religions and find very worrying things in each of them, there's something about modern Islam that goes further.

[Roquila 1,335]

I think you could publish a comic image satirising Jesus, Mary, Joseph and God himself without the author having to go into hiding for his own safety.

I think a respected author could write a book about referencing these figures without having a religious leader putting a contract out on his life.

I think a comedian could feel comfortable telling a joke on TV without the broadcaster feeling the need to censor it for the safety of their employees.

Christians do tend to have that whole 'turn the other cheek' mentality, although they can get a bit protesty when a comedian writes a play involving Jerry Springer and Jesus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Springer:_The_Opera#Protests_and_controversy

We also had the controversy with Monty Python's The Life of Brian in the 1970s, but John Cleese didn't have to check under his car for explosive devices of a morning. The most he had to do was defend it on a late-night chat show to a Bishop (who it transpired may have had some rather dark secrets in his closet, quelle surprise).

So whilst I do think you can look at all religions and find very worrying things in each of them, there's something about modern Islam that goes further.

Life must be good in England.

A Magician( yea we have this shit here , dont ask lol) was called on Live TV to have a debate with an Imam (the priests of Islam). That poor bloke had a whole nation calling for his head and was being laughed at the show LIVE from the spectators that were there.

An Imam said on Live TV that our President(wich happens to be a women) Dresses like a slut and that she is a disgrace to our country. http://www.president-ksgov.net/repository/images/12_09_2013_3854186_Atifete_Jahjaga.jpg (that's her, dont get scared though )

The biggest religious object in Kosovo is a Cathedral in the middle of the Capital City(Prishtina). I don't really have to explain this.

An Islam politic Party wished death upon our Prime Minister AND his Family because he didn't let them take part in the elections (i will lick his balls for this)

A member of a Politic Party that only 1.4% of the population voted came out on Live TV that he is an Atheist, his facebook was bombarded with comments like: I will kill you because you are not with religion of peace (i literally just traslated it) and many of these kinds.

When i was 16 my Physics teacher suggested me to start praying because that will help me ( i was the craziest kid in the school ). I told her i dont believe in god. Called my Mom, got me suspended.

Being close minded is the new thing here i guess.

LONG LIVE MY GERMAN PASSPORT , I CAN FUCK OFF WHENEVER I WANT.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Stupidity and desperation are the causes of violence - religion is just a very good way of channeling it in a particular direction. These 'angry young men' who travel to fight for IS are disenfranchised and this form of Islam gives them a very clear, easy to follow structure. It tells them who to blame, who to fight in the name of and what they'll get in return for it (more than the crap life they've got laid out for them). There's probably a sense of fraternity in that life and they probably get a sense of achievement they wouldn't otherwise. It's not a coincidence that the Middle East has some terrifyingly high rates of illiteracy and also some terrifying religious nutballs.

I won't lie that illiteracy is not a huge part of violence in the middle east areas. I know for a fact that a lot of Muslims would not be swayed into joining ISIS and other Islamic groups if they were more literate or even knew more about the Koran. That way no one would come to convince you with something you know is wrong.

On the other hand, many of the leaders in terrorist groups are actually literate like the one that schooled in Britain that beheaded the American reporter. These ones are out for power and financial gain, twisting the religion to sway the illiterate along with financial incentives for the poverty stricken and they easily have an army.

Sad to see religion used as a means to cause havoc. I don't know about the Koran well, but if only Muslims/islamics can be more vocal on the areas in the Koran that says violence/killing is not good, more people will have better knowledge of the Koran and more people won't be swayed into Islamic terrorism.

[The only place to be 11,313]

On the other hand, many of the leaders in terrorist groups are actually literate like the one that schooled in Britain that beheaded the American reporter. These ones are out for power and financial gain, twisting the religion to sway the illiterate along with financial incentives for the poverty stricken and they easily have an army.

That's a good point and I think it has a bit in common with the football hooligans of the 1980s. Take The Firm for example (great Alan Clarke film, Gary Oldman is amazing in it). It was about guys who in their normal lives were average men, somewhat powerless, emasculated and pathetic in some ways but as part of this 'gang' they were powerful, They commanded respect amongst their peers in a way they didn't elsewhere.

Others have echoed that sentiment, that maybe these men travelling to fight simply don't have that purpose to their lives and extremist Islam takes advantage of that. But I (and many others based on my experiences) don't give a fuck about that anymore. Our sympathy has dissipated. You can look at the rise of Hitler in the 1930s and trace it back to the punitive measures the Treaty of Versailles inflicted on the German people, but that doesn't mean I feel bad about us going to war with them.

What we have now is an evil ideology that needs to be combatted and it will happen, somehow.