Politics & Stuff

[Spike 12,049]

6 hours ago, iseah100 said:

 

I hate this. If someone hates Mexicans what are they? They are racist. If someone hates blacks, Asians, Italians, etc they are racist. People have a preconceived notion of what Mexicans look like. If you ask me what I am, I'm not gonna say Caucasian or something, I'm going to say Mexican-American. But idk man, that's issue is shady. 

As for your pro-choice comments, I can respect that but I mean, if a girl is 15 and has sex I don't think she should have to deal with a stupid decision she made when she was a kid her whole life. Shit happens, hormones kick in and chances are that kid will either have to be taken care of by her parents, which is an unfair burden or will have a shitty life because that girl will obviously not have the financial ability to provide it with good care. The biggest argument I have is that most people who are pro-life are actually pro-birth. Once that baby is born they figure it's not their problem. I also think if a woman wants to have sex, birth control is not full proof, so she has to accept she may have a kid if she wants to have sex? That's not fair imo. 

But it was Hillary's "turn" she lost to a black guy with a Muslim sounding name ffs, what were they thinking? 

That's a fair statement and I could never tell you how to feel about it. You must understand though, coming from Australia there has been a distinct movement to give Indigenous Australian Peoples their autonomy and self-realisation. They've fought tooth and nail to have their culture and heritage recongnised and respected, to not acknowledge them and lump them into the rest of Australians as a 'blanket-race' would be disrespectful. Of course, they are Australians nationals like myself but their heritage as the Indigenous Peoples of Australia comes first. So you I hope you can understand my thinking on this subject, I'm not sure about how Indigenous Mexicans feel or how they have been treated historically.

It is the same for Blacks, Asians and Italians. Their are many different Black peoples across the world and I'm sure many like to be recognised as their people. Maybe not in America where the heritage trails have run thin to the point of ambiguity but I'm sure that a Nigerian man and a South-African man would like to be recognised as a different people with different heritage, culture and customs. Same for Asians, my missus is Filipino-American, but she is vastly different culturally to Koreans, Turks, Israelites, Indians and near every other nation in Asia. Personally I just feel the huge blanket-terms for races being applied to just one race is a little racist in itself. Then again racial classification is such a shady subject as you say, in some cases it is a sense of independance and price, and others it is just abuse. 

I mean people assume that Australians are tanned English people but their are many people living in Australia these days. Greeks, Croats, Lebanese, Indigenous, Anglo, Celtic, Dutch, French, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Micronesian, etc. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

18 hours ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

Even if Sanders was picked though we still had nearly 60 million people in this country who was ok with Trump, and all he represents, representing them on the national stage. That isnt the America I thought I was in.

I don't think it's fair at all to project the candidates moralities onto their voters. I think it silly to say that all those who voted Trump are okay with his racism misogyny and xenophobia just as it would be absurd to claim that everyone who voted Clinton is okay with endless wars to maintain the empire, unregulated banks and corporations and corruption (which no body is claiming).

The problem with 'democracy' in the US is that most don't vote FOR a candidate but AGAINST another because everyone keeps shoving the broken two-party system down their throats and telling them to vote for the lesser of two evils...then you get president Trump!

That's not to say that no bigots voted for Trump. Some are clearly and even proudly racist/homophobic...etc.But most are not.

But even if we assume that all those who voted Trump are 'deplorables', now what? The answer is to not even challenge them? To let them win and flee? And I know that you comment about moving to Canada comes from your frustration and is probably not a sincere desire, but I'm talking about fleeing from the political debate. Because that is what liberals have been doing for some time.

Shutting someone down by calling them racist/sexist/fascist...etc. is not winning the debate, it's basically conceding it. Getting offended and outraged by an idea does not destroy it. You need to debate it. Even if they are racist, even if they are misogynists; debate them, logically call out their bullshit, don't let their bigotry go unchallenged.

It shouldn't be hard. We're the left. We're supposed to have the rational upper hand. But for some reason we think we've already won the culture debate and have stopped using logic and debating and instead replaced that with hurling insults and calling everyone on the right evil as if that has even persuaded anyone to change their opinions.

The democratic party needs to quit this condescending holier than thou attitude and all the shaming and outrage. They need to stop blaming everyone else for their continued failure and start talking to the 60 million people and trying to understand why they voted for an obviously bigoted candidate like Trump over their Clinton.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Noam Chomsky SIX years ago:

“The United States is extremely lucky that no honest, charismatic figure has arisen...If somebody comes along who is charismatic and honest this country is in real trouble because of the frustration, disillusionment, the justified anger and the absence of any coherent response. What are people supposed to think if someone says ‘I have got an answer, we have an enemy’? There it was the Jews. Here it will be the illegal immigrants and the blacks. We will be told that white males are a persecuted minority...If the polls are accurate it is not the Republicans but the right-wing Republicans, the crazed Republicans, who will sweep the next election...The mood of the country is frightening. The level of anger, frustration and hatred of institutions is not organized in a constructive way. It is going off into self-destructive fantasies.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/donald-trump-president-wins-election-noam-chomsky-prediction-a7406831.html

 

The man has been basically right about almost everything for more than 60 years. Probably why you never see anything he says ever given any attention or weight in the mainstream.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

This is another article I found that explains why Trump won. It isn't about racism, many Americans that voted for Trump aren't, there were many other issues that made them go for Trump despite all the controversial statements. 

People of colour have benefited hugely from the progressive politics of the past half-century. From the battle for civil rights in the 1960s to present-day struggles against racist and discriminatory language in the public sphere, progressives have championed the rights of black and brown people, LGBT people and other minorities previously marginalised in western societies. White liberals have played a huge role in these battles, and to them as well as others, I feel a huge debt of gratitude.

But in light of current happenings, I think it is time white leftist-liberals started paying less attention to defending people like me and focused on reconnecting with the white voters, traditionally their base, whom they have lost along the way.
Without wooing back significant sections of white voters, the left will only grow weaker and rightwing populism stronger
This is not masochism, it is self-interested rationality.
The progressive movement remains the biggest ally of ethnic minorities, our strongest defenders against the always possible tyranny of a white majority. But a left that lacks the potential for winning elections courts political irrelevance. Political irrelevance would mean the left loses the capability to effectively defend minority rights and fight discrimination.
We can’t ignore numbers in politics. The reality today is that without wooing back significant sections of white voters, (who still have the numbers to decide elections, as we saw in the US with Trump and the UK with Brexit), the left will only grow weaker and rightwing populism stronger.
It is we, the very minorities progressives aim to protect, who would be left with the bulk of the negative consequences if this happens. Ethnic minorities in particular are easily identifiable and can be instantly picked on. Nobody needs a strong left more than ethnic minorities right now. If the price to pay for this is a little less focus on us, and more on poor, frustrated white voters, it is a price worth paying. I’m not suggesting progressives throw minorities under the bus and cease fighting racial or sexual discrimination, but regular white folk need to see progressives as their defenders too, not just champions of minorities, which is too often the perception many white people have of the “cosmopolitan left”. The left needs much more focus on socioeconomic issues such as inequality and stagnant wages, the stuff that resonates with regular white voters. Of course, it resonates with me too – it’s not as if this would be to switch to an issue which excludes minority interests.
Some of the current anti-immigration sentiments in the west are racially motivated, but some of it results from exhaustion with the fierce competition neoliberalism has thrived on in recent decades. Some people enjoy competition, but for most it is stressful, exhausting and keeps them on edge. Small wonder many want to restrict movement of labour. If neoliberalism makes everything a competition, it should be no surprise that white majorities have come to see newcomers as rivals for jobs and resources.
To me, the Brexit referendum always boiled down to one core question: would Brits opt for less competition from migrants (for jobs, housing, schools etc) by quitting the EU, or would they choose the growing socioeconomic competition staying in the EU all but guaranteed? It was hardly shocking that when people got the rare opportunity to reduce competition, many willingly grabbed it.
In the US election this week, the biggest voter swing to Trump (16-points), came from those earning less than $30,000 a year, the very group that has to compete with Mexican immigrants for low-skilled jobs. Again, Trump promised them the prospect of less competition from Mexican migrants, via his wall, and they grabbed it.
These were voters who backed Obama in 2012 so we should not so readily call them racists.
And anti-immigrant sentiment is not restricted to the west. When black South Africans physically attacked and killed black African migrants in South Africa last year, it wasn’t because they hated them for being black, they hated them for being unwanted competition. “ They are stealing our jobs ”, the South Africans claimed. Sound familiar?
There is no denying a racial aspect to the current rightwing surge in the west and there are well-off white people supporting the likes of Trump or Marine Le Pen in France, but there are probably enough white voters more concerned with economic issues than race, to be able to make the left competitive again if it can woo them back. Many are exhausted by neoliberalism’s “compete or die” approach and are desperate for some respite. The right is currently the only side of the debate offering something tangible, by promising to drastically reduce the competition immigration brings with it.
The left needs to focus more on everyday economic issues, less on identity politics and “celebrating diversity”. Diversity is great. But many white voters need to feel that leftist-liberals care about them as much as the minorities they seek to protect. If I were a straight white plumber from Luton, I don’t think I’d feel that the current leftist elites care much about me or my problems.
It’s not about abandoning minorities, the key is in focusing more emphasis on socioeconomic issues that appeal to a wider range of people. Economic issues don’t just apply to white or black voters – they matter to everyone of every ethnicity, religion or sexuality, majority and minority alike. Political perception is shaped by tone and emphasis. People quickly sense what the issues that really concern you are.
Socioeconomic insecurity is driving a lot of the current animosities and if white people see these being passionately addressed by the left, many will respond positively. I fear without such a shift, in a few years, progressives may simply be too weak to provide any real opposition to rightwing populism and it is us minorities who will suffer the most in such a scenario.
So, for now at least, please worry about folk like me a bit less and focus more on those who feel ignored. For the good of us all.

 

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

6 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

I don't think it's fair at all to project the candidates moralities onto their voters. I think it silly to say that all those who voted Trump are okay with his racism misogyny and xenophobia just as it would be absurd to claim that everyone who voted Clinton is okay with endless wars to maintain the empire, unregulated banks and corporations and corruption (which no body is claiming).

The problem with 'democracy' in the US is that most don't vote FOR a candidate but AGAINST another because everyone keeps shoving the broken two-party system down their throats and telling them to vote for the lesser of two evils...then you get president Trump!

That's not to say that no bigots voted for Trump. Some are clearly and even proudly racist/homophobic...etc.But most are not.

But even if we assume that all those who voted Trump are 'deplorables', now what? The answer is to not even challenge them? To let them win and flee? And I know that you comment about moving to Canada comes from your frustration and is probably not a sincere desire, but I'm talking about fleeing from the political debate. Because that is what liberals have been doing for some time.

Shutting someone down by calling them racist/sexist/fascist...etc. is not winning the debate, it's basically conceding it. Getting offended and outraged by an idea does not destroy it. You need to debate it. Even if they are racist, even if they are misogynists; debate them, logically call out their bullshit, don't let their bigotry go unchallenged.

It shouldn't be hard. We're the left. We're supposed to have the rational upper hand. But for some reason we think we've already won the culture debate and have stopped using logic and debating and instead replaced that with hurling insults and calling everyone on the right evil as if that has even persuaded anyone to change their opinions.

The democratic party needs to quit this condescending holier than thou attitude and all the shaming and outrage. They need to stop blaming everyone else for their continued failure and start talking to the 60 million people and trying to understand why they voted for an obviously bigoted candidate like Trump over their Clinton.

 

The difference in that regard is that Hillary didnt campaign on the endless wars,unregulated banks, and corruption. She campaigned on continuing the policies of Obama, and pushing them forward. All of that stuff was just in her past.

 

Trump campaigned on racial animosity for the most part. It is pretty much impossible to separate that from his core "Make America Great Again" message.

 

Debating them at this point in time is useless because they do not think like the rest of us. It was the same way when Bill Nye debated Ken Ham at the Creation museum. He could build logical arguments all day it didnt matter because a man with faith cant be stirred, and if the audience believes that Immigrants are bad people then you presenting facts to them won't change it. People just need a scapegoat, and Trump was brilliant in noticing this. We won the popular vote so, in essence, we have won the culture debate. The issue is a broken electoral college that will always give someone in North Dakota or Wyoming a greater voice than someone living in Hollywood.

 

We know why they voted for a bigot. Because they are bigots. There is no other way to put it sadly.

[Spike 12,049]

10 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

It shouldn't be hard. We're the left. We're supposed to have the rational upper hand. But for some reason we think we've already won the culture debate and have stopped using logic and debating and instead replaced that with hurling insults and calling everyone on the right evil as if that has even persuaded anyone to change their opinions.

And that bold statement is a symptom of the latter. The sheer arrogance to assume the rationale upperhand is why the left is like this. Looks like even you Choo, one of the most level headed people on here is victim to what the left has become.

[Fulham Broadway 17,305]

All good points above. I have arrived at the conclusion the people were given false choices. The whole system is set up to give you an illusion of choice, but ''we're gonna fuck you any way''.   Brexit- Fuck Remain, Fuck Leave.

US Election, Oooh look you have these choices ''Now, do you want to be hanged or electrocuted ?'' You've chosen ? Right, now fight amongst yourselves because we're still in charge anyway.

Fuck Trump, Fuck Clinton.

[Fulham Broadway 17,305]

Mexican newspaper response to Trump elected

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

Trump voters going after women now

 

and more:

asian-americans-now-targeted-harassment-donald-trumps-victory

 

The one good thing about a trump presidency is it might get 44s and other Pan Asian vigilante groups armed and back on the street patrolling neighborhoods. Things have really changed if they feel they can attack Asian women in our neighborhoods unchecked.

[Spike 12,049]

6 hours ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

Trump voters going after women now

 

 

and more:

asian-americans-now-targeted-harassment-donald-trumps-victory

 

The one good thing about a trump presidency is it might get 44s and other Pan Asian vigilante groups armed and back on the street patrolling neighborhoods. Things have really changed if they feel they can attack Asian women in our neighborhoods unchecked.

You cannot make a post like this without posting both sides of the coin

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/you-voted-donald-trump-yelled-man-beaten-chicago-streets/

The comparison of a Facebook or Twitter post has nothing on actual video evidence. The basis of that article is someone's integrity and anyone can make a false claim on the internet. You shouldn't believe everything everyone says and what the hell is 'Next Shark'?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/10/women-in-hijabs-on-2-campuses-say-they-were-attacked-by-men-invoking-donald-trump/

If I were to make a post on social media about being attacked for supporting Trump (white male) versus my significant other (East-Asian female) making a post about being attacked by Trump supporters, who'd you believe first?

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

[Captain Ahmed 528]

Softies,cockail ice,new mecca,isis slayers,meh

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

10 hours ago, Spike said:

You cannot make a post like this without posting both sides of the coin

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/you-voted-donald-trump-yelled-man-beaten-chicago-streets/

The comparison of a Facebook or Twitter post has nothing on actual video evidence. The basis of that article is someone's integrity and anyone can make a false claim on the internet. You shouldn't believe everything everyone says and what the hell is 'Next Shark'?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/10/women-in-hijabs-on-2-campuses-say-they-were-attacked-by-men-invoking-donald-trump/

If I were to make a post on social media about being attacked for supporting Trump (white male) versus my significant other (East-Asian female) making a post about being attacked by Trump supporters, who'd you believe first?

Next Shark is an Asian interest site that does pretty good work in reporting on Asian issues.  If the attacks were taken in isolation I'd be weary of believing them, but its a common thing so I lean more towards believing them.

 

The main difference is Trump campaigned on violence. He joked about paying the fees of his violent supporter, and he used coded  racist language to make his audience go crazy. When they act out of violence, it comes from him. When his detractors act, it comes from themselves.

[Spike 12,049]

52 minutes ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

Next Shark is an Asian interest site that does pretty good work in reporting on Asian issues.  If the attacks were taken in isolation I'd be weary of believing them, but its a common thing so I lean more towards believing them.

 

The main difference is Trump campaigned on violence. He joked about paying the fees of his violent supporter, and he used coded  racist language to make his audience go crazy. When they act out of violence, it comes from him. When his detractors act, it comes from themselves.

That site looks entirely East-Asian. Looks like you are guilty of what you were criticising people for earlier. People have an idea of what a 'Mexican' is and you have an idea of what an 'Asian' is. Epicanthic eyes, black hair and yellowish-skin. Not that anyone else doesn't.

There is no difference, this isn't a competition. Both sides have sickening people. What does it matter if one side has a leader that has indirectly roused violence versus a side that is violent by nature? Nothing, the ends are the same, the means are nothing.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

That site looks entirely East-Asian. Looks like you are guilty of what you were criticising people for earlier. People have an idea of what a 'Mexican' is and you have an idea of what an 'Asian' is. Epicanthic eyes, black hair and yellowish-skin. Not that anyone else doesn't.

There is no difference, this isn't a competition. Both sides have sickening people. What does it matter if one side has a leader that has indirectly roused violence versus a side that is violent by nature? Nothing, the ends are the same, the means are nothing.

Lol well of course most on the page will be Asian American when its an Asian American news/entertainment site. Most Asians in America are east Asians. Same way most Mexicans are indigenous looking when Trump goes off on his tangents about them he's talking about ones who look like that. Thats why kids of his supporters can chant those at hispanic kids, who more than likely were born in this country. Those kids fit the image profile he has built a scapegoat out of.

 

Both sides do indeed have sickening people. One side has leadership who have made a living stoking such hatred though. We have to be able to objectively realize one side is clearly worse than the other. When a bunch of kids beat up a guy they got in an accident with that is the antithesis of everything Hillary had in her campaign. When Trump supporters racially abuse brown people they are following his lead.