Politics & Stuff

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Nearly 50 killed and dozens injured at Turkey's Ataturk airport in Istanbul. Why????

[geezers 9]

On 28/06/2016 at 0:39 AM, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

What I don't understand is that people seem to think that there will be zero immigration, or emigration to the EU in future will be banned.

It's called a visa; the process has gone on for years and years and anybody skilled can move to Europe is they choose as these countries will still want to attract talent. Most unskilled workers have no desire to leave Britain and similarly it works both ways, most don't want foreign labour to undercut the British market (which happens despite the minimum wage, many work under that money). That's the immigration argument; the key word is mass. Nigel Farage for example is vastly misrepresented by those that oppose him, he does not oppose all immigration nor does he hate foreigners (he has a German wife), and he also used to be a stockbroker, and was one of the chief victims of the ERM crisis. Immigrants should feel welcome in this country and what has been done to them as the occasion has been seized upon by the far right should incur severe penalties.

What bitter remainers are trying to do is portray Brexit voters as either racist, too 'old' to vote or somehow the 1 million majority was not decisive. Utterly disgusting, contempt of democracy makes you no better than the Bolsheviks post Russian Revolution 1917 or the Nazis manipulating the German parliament in order to install Hitler as Chancellor. I have no sympathy to those trying to do so with that stupid petition.
Obviously most remain campaigners are not like this and are now prepared to find the best solution for the country, but the whole debacle makes me sick.

Unfortunately, regarding the decision itself, the fact there was no decision made over what will happen, what approach will be taken and who will oversee the process is regrettable. Personally I think Boris as a leading figure is simply too abrasive at the moment for the public to swallow. I think Gove should do it personally, sensible, and is open to all options includng the one I would favour: That is, not using Article 50 but transferring all EU laws into British legislature, and stripping them away as we want to. We should also focus on hammering out trade deals with key partners like the USA and Commonwealth countries like India and Canada to stabilise the markets as soon as possible. For me, October is too late for a takeover, it should be done by the end of August. Things need to be done, and no, we don't need to do them the EU's way. We should also focus on key EU partners like Germany and France later. Both countries have an increasing Eurosceptic views and France, crucially, have an election at the end of this year and we may find it far easier to work with their next government than the current one, and Germany will not be prepared to let its export market suffer for too long, considering that EU demand for its goods will also decrease as its economy will slump with the exit of the 5th largest economy in the world.

Regarding Gibraltar, we could simply disregard Spain. We can implement our own Gibraltar only visa which allows travel there for the Spanish workforce so Gib is not deprived. It has nothing to do with the Spanish government (which doesn't exist) and we should certainly not pass sovereignty over the island against its wishes.

And regarding Scotland, well, I thought at the time that if Ms Sturgeon really wanted Scotland to leave the Union, then she should have allowed England to vote in the referendum. The Scottish can scrounge off of the EU (if it exists) as opposed to us - they wanted to base their economy on oil. They will get what they deserve, Euro and trimmings included.

^^^ little Englander found

Firstly, Nigel Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser. He revealed a poster featuring a line of Syrian refugees, something akin to Nazi propaganda. He has defended those in his party who are openly racist and blames immigrants for all the UK's problems. Stating he has a German wife is akin to the "some of my best friends are black" defence. Quite what relevance it is that he used to be a stockbroker I'm not sure.

Secondly, while I agree that the people have had their say and given we live in a democracy the result must stand, this doesn't change the fact that a significant proportion of leave voters were racist morons blaming immigrants for all their problems. Neither does it change that the baby boomers voted in their droves to leave, leaving everyone else to sort out this shit storm when they inevitably pop their cloggs in 5 to 10 years time.

Thirdly, whoever takes over as Prime Minister has no chance in hell of taking EU laws back "one by one". Article 50 must be invoked before anything happens in that regard, that much is clear. Meanwhile, trade deals are far harder to negotiate than leave voters care to admit, and quite why The Commonwealth is cited so often remains a mystery unless you still dream of the British Empire restoring the "glory days".

Fourthly, Gibraltar are the real victims here. They voted overwhelmingly to remain because they knew the problems this would create with the Spanish border (the same goes for the Northern Ireland situation). I feel sorry for them both and hope that neither country has to have border controls between their respective EU neighbours.

Lastly, it's nice to see you want us (Scotland) to be an independent country so much - there's another thing we agree on! By the way, Ms Nicola Sturgeon was not First Minister during the last referendum campaign and so had little say in whether England got a vote, however the reason it didn't happen is because it is a ludicrous suggestion, much like any suggestion that other EU countries should have had a say in this referendum. However we were fair enough to give British nationals and EU nationals living in Scotland a vote, unlike the UK Government not allowing EU nationals living in the UK to vote in this referendum. Also, Scotland does not scrounge off either the UK or the EU. Scotland is a net contributer to the UK and would be one of the richest countries in the EU if it were an independent country within it. There is far more to the Scottish economy than oil. Scotland is now more likely than ever to leave the UK as it wants to be an outward looking country within the EU, however I will feel sorry for the some of the more reasonable people in England and Wales who will be left surrounded by Daily Mail readers when the inevitable happens.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

17 minutes ago, geezers said:

^^^ little Englander found

Firstly, Nigel Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser. He revealed a poster featuring a line of Syrian refugees, something akin to Nazi propaganda. He has defended those in his party who are openly racist and blames immigrants for all the UK's problems. Stating he has a German wife is akin to the "some of my best friends are black" defence. Quite what relevance it is that he used to be a stockbroker I'm not sure.

Secondly, while I agree that the people have had their say and given we live in a democracy the result must stand, this doesn't change the fact that a significant proportion of leave voters were racist morons blaming immigrants for all their problems. Neither does it change that the baby boomers voted in their droves to leave, leaving everyone else to sort out this shit storm when they inevitably pop their cloggs in 5 to 10 years time.

Thirdly, whoever takes over as Prime Minister has no chance in hell of taking EU laws back "one by one". Article 50 must be invoked before anything happens in that regard, that much is clear. Meanwhile, trade deals are far harder to negotiate than leave voters care to admit, and quite why The Commonwealth is cited so often remains a mystery unless you still dream of the British Empire restoring the "glory days".

Fourthly, Gibraltar are the real victims here. They voted overwhelmingly to remain because they knew the problems this would create with the Spanish border (the same goes for the Northern Ireland situation). I feel sorry for them both and hope that neither country has to have border controls between their respective EU neighbours.

Lastly, it's nice to see you want us (Scotland) to be an independent country so much - there's another thing we agree on! By the way, Ms Nicola Sturgeon was not First Minister during the last referendum campaign and so had little say in whether England got a vote, however the reason it didn't happen is because it is a ludicrous suggestion, much like any suggestion that other EU countries should have had a say in this referendum. However we were fair enough to give British nationals and EU nationals living in Scotland a vote, unlike the UK Government not allowing EU nationals living in the UK to vote in this referendum. Also, Scotland does not scrounge off either the UK or the EU. Scotland is a net contributer to the UK and would be one of the richest countries in the EU if it were an independent country within it. There is far more to the Scottish economy than oil. Scotland is now more likely than ever to leave the UK as it wants to be an outward looking country within the EU, however I will feel sorry for the some of the more reasonable people in England and Wales who will be left surrounded by Daily Mail readers when the inevitable happens.

Label me all you want mate, I don't care.

Farage is not a racist, in any sense of the word. In fact, the immigration system he proposes is actually fairer to ethnic minority immigrants than the current system is; as it will view them equally as opposed to treating them as 'less useful' compared to the (overwhelmingly white) European labour market.  What you're trying to imply is that he's racist just because some of his voters are. I know what a racist is, my dad is extremely racist and therefore I can tell you in confidence that neither Nigel nor Ukip is a racist person/party. As for having a European wife, well, you wouldn't marry somebody that you'd spit on would you?

He was a commodities trader - he knows economic principles, that is my point. Most of the current economic turmoil is because the markets are based upon speculation; and the Remain campaign's scaremongering has spooked the stockmarkets. This was largely your campaign's own doing.

I won't deny that Brexit is a leap into the dark, but we can shape our future purely through our own actions. The Commonwealth is mentioned because we can readily re establish our links with them - Canada, the US and India have already expressed interest in agreeing a trade deal with us. Once again, this vote was not for isolation. That is the single biggest lie of te Remain campaign; the aim of Brexit is to stop facing inward towards Europe and engage with the rest of the world, which we will do. Plus do you really think the EU is going to cut off its nose to spite its face? We will get our trade deal. It won't be as favourable as a completely free market but that's the price the majority of the electorate is willing to pay in order to connect with the rest of the world. Switzerland has $33 trillion of trade deals with other countries. The EU has $8 trillion. Anyway, Euroscepticism is flowing throughout Europe and therefore countries won't treat us too harshly in case the same happens to them.

Furthermore, I don't buy the idea that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU. The figure of 70% voting to Remain is a compelling one, *but* there is no mention that that was based on a 40% turnout. This gives me the impression that actually most young people don't care, because they certainly didn't care enough to vote.

Britain has never played by the EU's rules, I don't see why the government needs to start now. You misunderstood. What we could do is write all current EU laws into UK law, repal the Acts of 1972 that give the ECJ supremecy over British courts and then the Lisbon Treaty which effectively takes us out of Europe - no Article 50 needed. Then Parliament can just amend the Bill of EU directives to gradually remove the laws we don't want and keep the ones we want, for example keeping the Working Time Directive but disposing of the Common Fisheries Policy.

Gibraltar are not a victim. Once again, we can just give Spanish nationals Gibraltar specific work visas as to preserve Gib's workforce.

No, I know Sturgeon was not FM at the time, but I just got a bit muddled with my tenses. I'm not saying that English people should actually have a vote, I was just saying that most English people aren't too bothered about Scotland leaving. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion - we're both entitled to one, and Scotland's economy might be more favourably looked upon funding wise by the EU if you join it as a new country. I don't know, I look at it from an English perspective. But I will say you won't get the best of both worlds - for example, even if the EU allows you to keep the pound, I highly doubt the Bank of England will. And as the past year has shown, basing your economy on oil (as Salmond unashamedly wanted) would have been very, very bad.

 

 

 

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

Raheem Sterling abstained from the EU vote

 

He said hes shit at putting a cross in the box

[geezers 9]

15 hours ago, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

Label me all you want mate, I don't care.

Farage is not a racist, in any sense of the word. In fact, the immigration system he proposes is actually fairer to ethnic minority immigrants than the current system is; as it will view them equally as opposed to treating them as 'less useful' compared to the (overwhelmingly white) European labour market.  What you're trying to imply is that he's racist just because some of his voters are. I know what a racist is, my dad is extremely racist and therefore I can tell you in confidence that neither Nigel nor Ukip is a racist person/party. As for having a European wife, well, you wouldn't marry somebody that you'd spit on would you?

He was a commodities trader - he knows economic principles, that is my point. Most of the current economic turmoil is because the markets are based upon speculation; and the Remain campaign's scaremongering has spooked the stockmarkets. This was largely your campaign's own doing.

I won't deny that Brexit is a leap into the dark, but we can shape our future purely through our own actions. The Commonwealth is mentioned because we can readily re establish our links with them - Canada, the US and India have already expressed interest in agreeing a trade deal with us. Once again, this vote was not for isolation. That is the single biggest lie of te Remain campaign; the aim of Brexit is to stop facing inward towards Europe and engage with the rest of the world, which we will do. Plus do you really think the EU is going to cut off its nose to spite its face? We will get our trade deal. It won't be as favourable as a completely free market but that's the price the majority of the electorate is willing to pay in order to connect with the rest of the world. Switzerland has $33 trillion of trade deals with other countries. The EU has $8 trillion. Anyway, Euroscepticism is flowing throughout Europe and therefore countries won't treat us too harshly in case the same happens to them.

Furthermore, I don't buy the idea that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU. The figure of 70% voting to Remain is a compelling one, *but* there is no mention that that was based on a 40% turnout. This gives me the impression that actually most young people don't care, because they certainly didn't care enough to vote.

Britain has never played by the EU's rules, I don't see why the government needs to start now. You misunderstood. What we could do is write all current EU laws into UK law, repal the Acts of 1972 that give the ECJ supremecy over British courts and then the Lisbon Treaty which effectively takes us out of Europe - no Article 50 needed. Then Parliament can just amend the Bill of EU directives to gradually remove the laws we don't want and keep the ones we want, for example keeping the Working Time Directive but disposing of the Common Fisheries Policy.

Gibraltar are not a victim. Once again, we can just give Spanish nationals Gibraltar specific work visas as to preserve Gib's workforce.

No, I know Sturgeon was not FM at the time, but I just got a bit muddled with my tenses. I'm not saying that English people should actually have a vote, I was just saying that most English people aren't too bothered about Scotland leaving. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion - we're both entitled to one, and Scotland's economy might be more favourably looked upon funding wise by the EU if you join it as a new country. I don't know, I look at it from an English perspective. But I will say you won't get the best of both worlds - for example, even if the EU allows you to keep the pound, I highly doubt the Bank of England will. And as the past year has shown, basing your economy on oil (as Salmond unashamedly wanted) would have been very, very bad.

You can use the "fairer immigration system" shtick all you like, no one is buying it. The purpose of a leave vote was to reduce immigration and Farage played that card to win as many votes as possible. Just because you know some racist people doesn't mean that you have the final say on who is racist in this world and who is not. Farage played the immigrant card in this referendum, as he always has done to try win votes. The Syrian refugee poster he revealed was absolutely disgusting  (you ignored that point - conveniently) and something reminiscent of 1930s Europe. He has defended both members and supporters of his party who have came out with racist remarks, time and time again. He is a racist. Shouting "some of my best friends are foreigners!" does not change a thing. Quite why spitting on someone is seen as the barometer for racism I'm not sure.

A lot of the initial turmoil will recover eventually. Markets react incredibly sensitively to expectations and so obviously everything went to shit on Friday when no one had any clue as to what was going to happen. However it will take a while before certainty is restored and so markets will continue to be below their pre-Brexit levels for some time. It is also worth mentioning the lasting damage this could do to the financial services sector as the EU along with many bus8ness is almost certain to move its operations. I was no fan of the scaremongering from the remain camp. Some of it was true however a load of toffs from the Tory party telling everyone the sky will fall in if this, this and that happens has got to be one of the worst political campaigns in living memory. I know what it's like to be on the opposite side of all that scaremongering so I will be one of the first to condemn it (unfortunately people north of the border seemed to lap it up much more easily).

The more intelligent people in leave (I know you aren't all racists) may have ideas of this being an outward looking vote (although it is still surely better to have a market on your doorstep rather than one with those halfway across the world). However given the way the leave campaign was fought and those who voted leave, the UK attempting to globalise itself now would likely go down like a cup of cold sick with many leave voters, as would the UK and EU retaining free movement of people between each other. Eurosceptic flowing throughout Europe is the exact reason the political elite in Brussels are likely to treat us very harshly! They will want to make an example of us to try stem the tide of further countries leaving. And Switzerland is a completely void example. It is a tax haven and so has many of the world's rich pumping their money into it for that reason, it is nothing like the UK.

Regardless of turnout (all that does is suggest many young people are not turned on politically - nothing new really), an overwhelming majority of young people who take any sort of interest in current affairs and/or politics voted to remain.

If we we were to fanny about picking at rules one by one the EU would despise us for wasting their time. Goodbye friendly trade.

They are a victim though, regardless of visas their free movement with Spain will not be the same. The same goes for Northern Ireland (something that is criminally barely being spoken of at a national level). This result actually has the potential to be dangerous in Northern Ireland. You have the DUP union jack waving simpletons who only voted to leave because "Rule Brittania", as there is genuinely no way a leave vote could possibly help Northern Ireland. Meanwhile republicans are now calling for a border poll and we have the possibility of border controls coming back. Is that the 1980s calling back?

Personally I'm in favour of a new currency if it does happen however many talks will be needed with the EU before anyone has a scooby what the terms of re-entry or staying will be. Salmond has done an awful lot for the SNP and the Yes cause over the years, however his stumbling block two years ago was indeed currency and reliance on oil. While oil is a significant part of the Scottish economy there is much more to it than that and not enough was made of this during the campaign. Salmond knows his economics and I don't for a second think he was planning on basing the entire economy on oil however the No camp played that card and it won. Sturgeon will hopefully have learned from his mistakes and is also a much more appealing personality to the masses than the love-or-hate figure Salmond is.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

2 hours ago, geezers said:

You can use the "fairer immigration system" shtick all you like, no one is buying it. The purpose of a leave vote was to reduce immigration and Farage played that card to win as many votes as possible. Just because you know some racist people doesn't mean that you have the final say on who is racist in this world and who is not. Farage played the immigrant card in this referendum, as he always has done to try win votes. The Syrian refugee poster he revealed was absolutely disgusting  (you ignored that point - conveniently) and something reminiscent of 1930s Europe. He has defended both members and supporters of his party who have came out with racist remarks, time and time again. He is a racist. Shouting "some of my best friends are foreigners!" does not change a thing. Quite why spitting on someone is seen as the barometer for racism I'm not sure.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. In my opinion reducing immigration is not racism. The economic argument for immigration is sound, but mass immigration causes the social fabric of society to rip apart; lots of ghettoisation has occured over the years in places like Dagenham and it breeds hatred, and nationalist tendencies. Immigration is good, but too much (and equally too little) is not. Farage is not a racist, in any definition except the warped Left wing one which used to be used to keep white people quiet. To be honest his party is being used as a beacon for the wrong kinds of people and while it has served its purpose (UKIP did force the referendum, after all!) he would be taken far more seriously if he went to the Conservatives. No, I don't have complete authority over what is or isn't racist, but neither do you and having experienced racism first hand I use that as my definition. Perhaps I'm wrong, it is entirely possible I've just been desensitised to lower forms of racism. The poster was a lapse of judgment, but he doesn't make his own propaganda and I think the bloke that came up with it probably got a good talking to.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

A lot of the initial turmoil will recover eventually. Markets react incredibly sensitively to expectations and so obviously everything went to shit on Friday when no one had any clue as to what was going to happen. However it will take a while before certainty is restored and so markets will continue to be below their pre-Brexit levels for some time. It is also worth mentioning the lasting damage this could do to the financial services sector as the EU along with many bus8ness is almost certain to move its operations. I was no fan of the scaremongering from the remain camp. Some of it was true however a load of toffs from the Tory party telling everyone the sky will fall in if this, this and that happens has got to be one of the worst political campaigns in living memory. I know what it's like to be on the opposite side of all that scaremongering so I will be one of the first to condemn it (unfortunately people north of the border seemed to lap it up much more easily).

Yes, they did the same during your referendum campaign. The difference being that England has been subjected to this negative attitude for so long that I think the electorate simply chose to ignore it. Although it did make me laugh when Remain campaigners who wanted to crucify the City during the recession were now many of the people trying to urge people to listen to it.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

The more intelligent people in leave (I know you aren't all racists) may have ideas of this being an outward looking vote (although it is still surely better to have a market on your doorstep rather than one with those halfway across the world). However given the way the leave campaign was fought and those who voted leave, the UK attempting to globalise itself now would likely go down like a cup of cold sick with many leave voters, as would the UK and EU retaining free movement of people between each other. Eurosceptic flowing throughout Europe is the exact reason the political elite in Brussels are likely to treat us very harshly! They will want to make an example of us to try stem the tide of further countries leaving. And Switzerland is a completely void example. It is a tax haven and so has many of the world's rich pumping their money into it for that reason, it is nothing like the UK.

Well, I'm glad Boris is not running. Gove represented exactly what I wanted from Leave, I would definitely trust him to do what's right (in my opinion). I'm not for the Norway option, if we go for that we might as well have stayed in. I'm not expecting to have my cake and eat it, to trade with the EU will likely involve a tariff but we can certainly negotiate something better than 10% which is the normal going rate. Yes, it could be viewed like that but countries like France, the converse may occur - Eurosceptic feeling is high there and therefore giving the UK an unfavourable deal would be like a shot to the foot, as in the event that they leave, they will probably get the same deal. Plus Germany calls the shots in the EU; and if it imposes a bad deal on the UK it would cause loss of jobs there. Combined with deals with other countries around the world like India, we may well come out stronger than when we were in. I'm pretty sure there was another figure for Iceland which I heard in a TV debate, but I can't remember now. My point is that where one closes a door, another opens; a lot of countries will see this as a good opportunity to get a favourable deal with the 5th largest economy in the world.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

If we we were to fanny about picking at rules one by one the EU would despise us for wasting their time. Goodbye friendly trade.

Not quite. By the point we were to start stripping rules away from the Bill, for all intents and purposes we would be outside of the EU. It'd be a far quicker exit process than 2 years.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

They are a victim though, regardless of visas their free movement with Spain will not be the same. The same goes for Northern Ireland (something that is criminally barely being spoken of at a national level). This result actually has the potential to be dangerous in Northern Ireland. You have the DUP union jack waving simpletons who only voted to leave because "Rule Brittania", as there is genuinely no way a leave vote could possibly help Northern Ireland. Meanwhile republicans are now calling for a border poll and we have the possibility of border controls coming back. Is that the 1980s calling back?

I expect there will have to be a decision made whether Northern Ireland (for the people) whether they favour further integration with the Union and for all intents and purposes just become 'Northern Ireland County Council' or if they would prefer to join with Ireland and remain in the EU. Both would have their benefits, but I can't comment further because quite frankly I don't have enough knowledge on the NI perspective or the issues facing it. Regarding Gibraltar and NI, I think we'll just have to see what happens, but the UK can certainly make it as painless as possible for both countries (Irish passport holders for example would still be eligible for free movement as before the EEC) and it won't be the disaster as advertised.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

Personally I'm in favour of a new currency if it does happen however many talks will be needed with the EU before anyone has a scooby what the terms of re-entry or staying will be. Salmond has done an awful lot for the SNP and the Yes cause over the years, however his stumbling block two years ago was indeed currency and reliance on oil. While oil is a significant part of the Scottish economy there is much more to it than that and not enough was made of this during the campaign. Salmond knows his economics and I don't for a second think he was planning on basing the entire economy on oil however the No camp played that card and it won. Sturgeon will hopefully have learned from his mistakes and is also a much more appealing personality to the masses than the love-or-hate figure Salmond is.

By "New Currency" I assume you mean a Scottish pound in the literal sense. I think one reason why Scotland voted to remain is because one of the key Leave points (mass immigration) does not apply (at the same extent as England) to Scotland. It is a mainly England focussed point. I think that, however, there would have to be a more vibrant economic manifesto in order for an independence vote to succeed: Basing an economy on a finite commodity (and also how much actually goes to Scotland; Many of the ways of dividing it up favoured England & Wales) was never going to be a vote winner because it can be exploited by the opposition so easily.

I just can't see the EU removing the Euro from any entry deal, otherwise existing Eurozone countries would see leaving and rejoining as a way to get rid of it, unless Brexit significantly changes their view towards federalisation - entirely possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[cosmicway 1,252]

The Greek Tsipr-exit lasted for 5 hours.
Last year (5 July) Tsipras held his referendum and won it.
I went to sleep early, woke up at 5 in the morning, opened google news - Varoufakis resigned it said.

The English evzons may last a bit longer.

Other than that it was exactly the same. Spray guns the size of US Air Force - RAF together. Stacks of hay all over the place.
In Gr it was Putin is coming with trillions of euros.
In the UK it was ... the open seas. It looks like it is literally the open seas.

 

[Parky 739]

Seriously wondering what Boris Johnson's end game is? 

[Fulham Broadway 16,392]

2 hours ago, Parky said:

Seriously wondering what Boris Johnson's end game is? 

He thought he'd lose, but that it would be enough to get him in (when Cameron stepped away).

He realises the shit show we're in now and doesn't want to be involved, quite understandably! Best leave it to others to take the blame as this unwinds.

 

[cosmicway 1,252]

Europe's traditional enemy is international communism.
They were the world's strongest military block until the downfall, now they maintain a presence of around 5%, on the average (in the form of orthodox communism).
So international communism can be described as a small power block.
The other enemy is the neonazis who are also active, from 1/1/1946 in fact to this day. Neonazis were a minute quantity, about 1%. In UK and France they were about 15% having the form of "Powellite" movements (plus the 1% of "originalistas").
Their ranks have been swelled because:

a - the threat of communism in the shape of USSR is gone, so the right wingers don't have to worry about what happens to NATO
b - 1/2 of the big capital want closed markets - monopolies rather than open markets

The neonazis are far more dangerous than the anti-communist dictatorships of old, the Greek and the Iberic.
Anything else you hear is "excuses in sin" more or less.

One of the biggest lies of the anti-europe campaign is the so called "Brussels dictatorship".
But it is the governments who make the decisions ! We don't even have a "Brussels government", good, bad, dictatorial or otherwise and the so called euro-supremos are persons who act on behalf of the governments.
The anti-european could say "I 'd like an EU but only if my country dictates all the others", or complain that "my country is too weak and cannot influence decisions". The last is obviously true for Malta-Greece-Portugal but not for the UK.
So the campaign is sort of an obvious lie in that respect.

 

[lucio 5,395]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36681475

Austria presidential poll result overturned

 

knew this was rigged , was so blatantly obvious, hopefully Hofer gets his victory now

[KevinAshburner 1,270]

@milan.cech

this story is for you. your views on this and would you want to do a England/United Kingdom/Great Britain. 

 

Czech Republic is gearing up to Brexit out of The EU.

 

Is ‘Czexit’ Next? President of Czech Republic Calls for EU Referendum
 

http://time.com/4391005/czexit-milos-zeman-referendum-nato-eu-czech/

President Milos Zeman says his citizens must be able to "express themselves" on E.U. and NATO membership

The Czech Republic’s President Milos Zeman has called for a referendum on the country’s membership of both the European Union and NATO, the latest example of fallout from Britain’s vote to leave the E.U.

[cosmicway 1,252]

34 minutes ago, KevinAshburner said:

@milan.cech

this story is for you. your views on this and would you want to do a England/United Kingdom/Great Britain. 

 

Czech Republic is gearing up to Brexit out of The EU.

 

Is ‘Czexit’ Next? President of Czech Republic Calls for EU Referendum
 

http://time.com/4391005/czexit-milos-zeman-referendum-nato-eu-czech/

President Milos Zeman says his citizens must be able to "express themselves" on E.U. and NATO membership

The Czech Republic’s President Milos Zeman has called for a referendum on the country’s membership of both the European Union and NATO, the latest example of fallout from Britain’s vote to leave the E.U.

That one is a heavy drinker.
It looks to me that in the old "central powers" the right wingers look forward to a dictatorial-racist Europe rather than a non-Europe.
I have already explained the ways in which the anti-european mind works.
There is also the Austrian action replay.
Those who will never quit are imho the French, not counting mme Lepen's party.
In Greece and Spain it is mainly the leftists who make noises, but they have n't come down strongly in favour of the "Brexit". Not yet at any rate.
You can kiss democracy goodbye too and freedom of speech if they have their way.

[geezers 9]

On 6/30/2016 at 2:20 PM, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. In my opinion reducing immigration is not racism. The economic argument for immigration is sound, but mass immigration causes the social fabric of society to rip apart; lots of ghettoisation has occured over the years in places like Dagenham and it breeds hatred, and nationalist tendencies. Immigration is good, but too much (and equally too little) is not. Farage is not a racist, in any definition except the warped Left wing one which used to be used to keep white people quiet. To be honest his party is being used as a beacon for the wrong kinds of people and while it has served its purpose (UKIP did force the referendum, after all!) he would be taken far more seriously if he went to the Conservatives. No, I don't have complete authority over what is or isn't racist, but neither do you and having experienced racism first hand I use that as my definition. Perhaps I'm wrong, it is entirely possible I've just been desensitised to lower forms of racism. The poster was a lapse of judgment, but he doesn't make his own propaganda and I think the bloke that came up with it probably got a good talking to.

Yes, they did the same during your referendum campaign. The difference being that England has been subjected to this negative attitude for so long that I think the electorate simply chose to ignore it. Although it did make me laugh when Remain campaigners who wanted to crucify the City during the recession were now many of the people trying to urge people to listen to it.

Well, I'm glad Boris is not running. Gove represented exactly what I wanted from Leave, I would definitely trust him to do what's right (in my opinion). I'm not for the Norway option, if we go for that we might as well have stayed in. I'm not expecting to have my cake and eat it, to trade with the EU will likely involve a tariff but we can certainly negotiate something better than 10% which is the normal going rate. Yes, it could be viewed like that but countries like France, the converse may occur - Eurosceptic feeling is high there and therefore giving the UK an unfavourable deal would be like a shot to the foot, as in the event that they leave, they will probably get the same deal. Plus Germany calls the shots in the EU; and if it imposes a bad deal on the UK it would cause loss of jobs there. Combined with deals with other countries around the world like India, we may well come out stronger than when we were in. I'm pretty sure there was another figure for Iceland which I heard in a TV debate, but I can't remember now. My point is that where one closes a door, another opens; a lot of countries will see this as a good opportunity to get a favourable deal with the 5th largest economy in the world.

Not quite. By the point we were to start stripping rules away from the Bill, for all intents and purposes we would be outside of the EU. It'd be a far quicker exit process than 2 years.

I expect there will have to be a decision made whether Northern Ireland (for the people) whether they favour further integration with the Union and for all intents and purposes just become 'Northern Ireland County Council' or if they would prefer to join with Ireland and remain in the EU. Both would have their benefits, but I can't comment further because quite frankly I don't have enough knowledge on the NI perspective or the issues facing it. Regarding Gibraltar and NI, I think we'll just have to see what happens, but the UK can certainly make it as painless as possible for both countries (Irish passport holders for example would still be eligible for free movement as before the EEC) and it won't be the disaster as advertised.

By "New Currency" I assume you mean a Scottish pound in the literal sense. I think one reason why Scotland voted to remain is because one of the key Leave points (mass immigration) does not apply (at the same extent as England) to Scotland. It is a mainly England focussed point. I think that, however, there would have to be a more vibrant economic manifesto in order for an independence vote to succeed: Basing an economy on a finite commodity (and also how much actually goes to Scotland; Many of the ways of dividing it up favoured England & Wales) was never going to be a vote winner because it can be exploited by the opposition so easily.

I just can't see the EU removing the Euro from any entry deal, otherwise existing Eurozone countries would see leaving and rejoining as a way to get rid of it, unless Brexit significantly changes their view towards federalisation - entirely possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Reducing immigration is not necessarily racism, yes, however it's the motives behind this that are often racist. I've heard many arguments about "foreigners coming over here and taking our benefits", despite the fact immigration generally makes a positive contribution to the economy. There's also many people that complain about walking down the street and not seeing a white face, or complaining about there being Polish food shops. What the hell does it matter?? And again, yes, there are sometimes social consequences when there is mass immigration concentrated in one particular are, although there are other ways this can be tackled instead of just reducing immigration into the country entirely. However even these negatives to immigration should not be seen as an excuse for extremism or racism. Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser given his defense of racist party members. He knows many of his supporters are racist and uses this to his advantage to send out his ideology by breeding hate. And whether or not Farage made the poster, he was still happy to present it.

The City is generally full of wankers who caused one of the worst recessions in recent times (no thanks to the politicians who were supposed to be regulating them) so I can completely understand why many will want to give them the two fingers, but a referendum is not the place for a protest vote as the consequences last many lifetimes. The thing here though is that if The City is affected badly by this vote, it's not the stockbrokers and bankers who pay the consequences. When you have Tory government who only care about keeping the rich rich whilst shouting "long term economic plan", it will be the working class, the jobless and the disabled who pay the most for it, many of whom will have voted Leave.

Anyone is better than Boris but Gove's cabinet record is abysmal and May's isn't much better - despite this she's probably still the best person for the job which says it all really. Even a small tariff will have big implications given the volume of imports and exports the UK trades. While countries like France have pro-EU leaders I can't see them being lenient in negotiations, they'll want to try stem the tide of Euroscepticism. There will be open doors but none as valuable as the EU in my opinion.

I still highly doubt the EU will be willing to negotiate with us if we don't invoke Article 50, given they've said just as much.

I can't see there ever being a "Northern Ireland council". There seemed to be a desire among most to maintain the status quo purely just to avoid any more trouble but since the referendum there's already been renewed calls for a united Ireland which will likely be even stronger if there is no common travel area. Either way it could lead to renewed trouble.

Essentially a Scottish Pound yes. Scotland is actually lacking in immigration (something the Yes campaign should have made more of an issue about before the referendum), as it needs more people of a working age to balance out an ageing population, which is why it's probably more important for Scotland to stay in the EU. The economy should not be based on oil and I don't thin that was Salmond's plan either. Scotland would be 99.9% certain to get its geographical share of the North Sea, i.e. the bit that has all the oil in it, believe me I have done my research in this particular area! Any suggestion that Scotland would only get its population share of the sea that surrounds it is absolutely ludicrous (should we only get our population share of the highlands too...?). The SNP's calculations were based on the correct (geographical) share of oil, the thing they got wrong was overestimating the price of email. You're correct though that it still isn't a vote winner and any new campaign must make more of Scotland's other resources and exports.

A lot depends on whether the EU is willing to be lenient with Scotland to try play down the whole Brexit situation. Spain and France's leaders have said no but unfortunately for them its up to the EU commission, not them.

 

[cosmicway 1,252]

7 hours ago, geezers said:

Reducing immigration is not necessarily racism, yes, however it's the motives behind this that are often racist. I've heard many arguments about "foreigners coming over here and taking our benefits", despite the fact immigration generally makes a positive contribution to the economy. There's also many people that complain about walking down the street and not seeing a white face, or complaining about there being Polish food shops. What the hell does it matter?? And again, yes, there are sometimes social consequences when there is mass immigration concentrated in one particular are, although there are other ways this can be tackled instead of just reducing immigration into the country entirely. However even these negatives to immigration should not be seen as an excuse for extremism or racism. Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser given his defense of racist party members. He knows many of his supporters are racist and uses this to his advantage to send out his ideology by breeding hate. And whether or not Farage made the poster, he was still happy to present it.

The City is generally full of wankers who caused one of the worst recessions in recent times (no thanks to the politicians who were supposed to be regulating them) so I can completely understand why many will want to give them the two fingers, but a referendum is not the place for a protest vote as the consequences last many lifetimes. The thing here though is that if The City is affected badly by this vote, it's not the stockbrokers and bankers who pay the consequences. When you have Tory government who only care about keeping the rich rich whilst shouting "long term economic plan", it will be the working class, the jobless and the disabled who pay the most for it, many of whom will have voted Leave.

Anyone is better than Boris but Gove's cabinet record is abysmal and May's isn't much better - despite this she's probably still the best person for the job which says it all really. Even a small tariff will have big implications given the volume of imports and exports the UK trades. While countries like France have pro-EU leaders I can't see them being lenient in negotiations, they'll want to try stem the tide of Euroscepticism. There will be open doors but none as valuable as the EU in my opinion.

I still highly doubt the EU will be willing to negotiate with us if we don't invoke Article 50, given they've said just as much.

I can't see there ever being a "Northern Ireland council". There seemed to be a desire among most to maintain the status quo purely just to avoid any more trouble but since the referendum there's already been renewed calls for a united Ireland which will likely be even stronger if there is no common travel area. Either way it could lead to renewed trouble.

Essentially a Scottish Pound yes. Scotland is actually lacking in immigration (something the Yes campaign should have made more of an issue about before the referendum), as it needs more people of a working age to balance out an ageing population, which is why it's probably more important for Scotland to stay in the EU. The economy should not be based on oil and I don't thin that was Salmond's plan either. Scotland would be 99.9% certain to get its geographical share of the North Sea, i.e. the bit that has all the oil in it, believe me I have done my research in this particular area! Any suggestion that Scotland would only get its population share of the sea that surrounds it is absolutely ludicrous (should we only get our population share of the highlands too...?). The SNP's calculations were based on the correct (geographical) share of oil, the thing they got wrong was overestimating the price of email. You're correct though that it still isn't a vote winner and any new campaign must make more of Scotland's other resources and exports.

A lot depends on whether the EU is willing to be lenient with Scotland to try play down the whole Brexit situation. Spain and France's leaders have said no but unfortunately for them its up to the EU commission, not them.

 

Racism is a habit of the old empires.
It is prevalent among the fanatical islamists too, who were also imperialist before WWI - the Ottoman empire.
They hate everyone.
EU is 65 years old now and in the beginning people had no idea this kind of thing survived. We thought it was dead and buried in the bunker of Berlin.
But gradually we got to know.
The reason there are european immigrants is that once upon a time the European countries were friendly with one another. Another reason is there were repressive regimes that make people leave their countries (communist and others).
But the atmosphere was one of freedom all over western Europe, with possible aberrations in the Iberic peninsula and Greece,

We knew that the right wing parties were overdoing it with anti-communism. They could accuse one of being communist sympathiser and there was no internet those days to publicise and expose the liars (if you were a common citizen as opposed to a public figure who could respond through the press). But this kind of thing -race hate- was unknown before the mid seventies.

I had discussions with officers of the military second bureau in 1981. I spoke to them about the rise of the Lepen pary in France. They said to me "not this communist claptrap, not in a million years, it's utter rubbish, it's crazy". I told them it's not utter rubbish and those folks represent a danger for Europe and they are a danger to our security, because first and foremost the communist propaganda was going to make a hot meal out of it.
It did n't happen straight away but in the end it happened, the way I said it would.

So it's a nightmarish prospect.
The Brexit campaign was 101% an anti-immigrant campaign, targeting Europeans this time !


 

[Milan 17,835]

On 2. 7. 2016 at 4:39 AM, KevinAshburner said:

@milan.cech

this story is for you. your views on this and would you want to do a England/United Kingdom/Great Britain. 

 

Czech Republic is gearing up to Brexit out of The EU.

 

Is ‘Czexit’ Next? President of Czech Republic Calls for EU Referendum
 

http://time.com/4391005/czexit-milos-zeman-referendum-nato-eu-czech/

President Milos Zeman says his citizens must be able to "express themselves" on E.U. and NATO membership

The Czech Republic’s President Milos Zeman has called for a referendum on the country’s membership of both the European Union and NATO, the latest example of fallout from Britain’s vote to leave the E.U.

It will not happen. I don't mean the exit, but the referendum. The president may say he would love to give people the chance to vote and speak for themselves, but the politics and leaders are incredibly scared of that prospect. Especially the prime minister, who is by the way the leader of a democratic party.

[cosmicway 1,252]

It's 4th of July folks

 

[Spike 12,049]

11 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

It's 4th of July folks

 

 

Except in the country that actually celebrates that day/