Politics & Stuff

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

3 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

So, Melania, what first attracted you to the twice yiur age, toupee wearing, ...er....BILLIONAIRE, Donald Trump ?

Someone mentioned it can't remember where F.B. but two off the scale horrible twats. One a man who's been bankrupt on at least a couple of occasions and is responsible for some of the worse architecture in New York. The other a man responsible for some of the worse home computers and technology which was surpassed almost instantly. Two men we both thought we'd seen the back of frankly a couple of has beens. What brought them back to the public eye?. The Apprentice that show has a lot to answer for.

[Spike 12,049]

A woman and her children have been stabbed in Montpellier allegedly for wearing 'summer clothes'. Fuck sake.

[Fernando 6,585]

40 minutes ago, Spike said:

A woman and her children have been stabbed in Montpellier allegedly for wearing 'summer clothes'. Fuck sake.

Just like people are taking revenge on the cops, I'm sure people will take revenge on the Muslim.

And it's sad because just like Good Cops are dying for this, Good Muslim will die.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

56 civilians killed in just one airstrike by US led coalition in Syria today. I'm sure THAT will help a lot in the fight against terrorism...

[cosmicway 1,333]

12 hours ago, johnnythefirst said:

It's no or-or story. You should have total freedom of religion, but religion itself should not mix up with politics. Every time it happens, it gets dangerous. 

Depends.
Everybody says that about everybody.
Football players should n't mix up with politics. But if Diego Costa makes a statement in favour of labour, the labourites among cfc fans will say "what a great lad" and the cons will cry "shame". The opposite statement will produce the similar effect.
We all speak about the inquisition but it's not real. The inquisition too is a much maligned institution.
The number of people they burned in 10 centuries of existence is a little over one thousand known wizards and sorcerers when the states were burning millions for as little as chasing the queen's deer.
The myth of the evil inquisition was created by the anglo-saxons of course, who in turn had to face the threat of the Spanish Armada at the time until saved by Sir Francis Drake. It was in those irregular circumstances that the myth was created.

 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@johnnythefirst @cosmicway

By all the indicators so far, and we've had a few days no for the dust to settle now, the attempted coup in Turkey does NOT look like it had anything to do with secularism. Or at the very least it wasn't carried out by pro-secular forces. Instead, all the clues are pointing towards Fathallah Gulen, who, if anything, is more religious and extremist than Erdogan. 

That would obviously mean US and CIA involvement, but it does leave a question about the timing of the attempted coup. After all, it's not like they just NOW realized what an awful authoritarian Erdogan is, and by any means his supposed replacement was unlikely to be any better. Here is my analysis of it:

The attempted coup came after a couple of weeks of Turkish-Russian 'flirting' and courting coinciding with the redrawing of previously perceived 'internationally agreed lines' in Aleppo. THAT is dangerous to the US' interests in Syria because the US sees Turkey as its bargaining chip in Syria as they themselves do not hold any real power on the ground. All the so called US trained/backed groups in Syria (real and imagined) have very little power without the support of the Turkish army and the supply routes from within Turkey.  Indeed, after getting a lot of publicity a couple of months ago, their role has visibly decreased since the start of the Turkish-Russian coming together.

So theoretically, and probably practically as well, a Russian-Turkish-Assad agreement could well be effectively implemented on the ground in Syria since Turkey still maintains a better relation with (or rather a strangle hold on) the radical Islamist groups in Syria than any one else; meaning a solution could actually be implemented on the ground in Syria without taking into account the interests and demands of the US (and KSA). 

That, in my mind, is the most likely explanation, and if true, we should be seeing more Erdogan-Russain closeness, and more radical change on the ground in Syria which there has already been signs for. 

[cosmicway 1,333]

3 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

@johnnythefirst @cosmicway

By all the indicators so far, and we've had a few days no for the dust to settle now, the attempted coup in Turkey does NOT look like it had anything to do with secularism. Or at the very least it wasn't carried out by pro-secular forces. Instead, all the clues are pointing towards Fathallah Gulen, who, if anything, is more religious and extremist than Erdogan. 

That would obviously mean US and CIA involvement, but it does leave a question about the timing of the attempted coup. After all, it's not like they just NOW realized what an awful authoritarian Erdogan is, and by any means his supposed replacement was unlikely to be any better. Here is my analysis of it:

The attempted coup came after a couple of weeks of Turkish-Russian 'flirting' and courting coinciding with the redrawing of previously perceived 'internationally agreed lines' in Aleppo. THAT is dangerous to the US' interests in Syria because the US sees Turkey as its bargaining chip in Syria as they themselves do not hold any real power on the ground. All the so called US trained/backed groups in Syria (real and imagined) have very little power without the support of the Turkish army and the supply routes from within Turkey.  Indeed, after getting a lot of publicity a couple of months ago, their role has visibly decreased since the start of the Turkish-Russian coming together.

So theoretically, and probably practically as well, a Russian-Turkish-Assad agreement could well be effectively implemented on the ground in Syria since Turkey still maintains a better relation with (or rather a strangle hold on) the radical Islamist groups in Syria than any one else; meaning a solution could actually be implemented on the ground in Syria without taking into account the interests and demands of the US (and KSA). 

That, in my mind, is the most likely explanation, and if true, we should be seeing more Erdogan-Russain closeness, and more radical change on the ground in Syria which there has already been signs for. 

 

Some contradictions there.
The coup is even more fundamentalist than Erdogan is but the US supported it ?
Re. Russians the Turks were alway managing to get along. Starting with Catherine the Great who initially was their enemy but later appeased by the Sultan.
The Americans always wanted Turkey close to Europe. In 2006 Bush said "let them join now and forget about economic convergence and all that fancy stuff". But GE-FR objected to this.
 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

24 minutes ago, cosmicway said:

Some contradictions there.
The coup is even more fundamentalist than Erdogan is but the US supported it ?
Re. Russians the Turks were alway managing to get along. Starting with Catherine the Great who initially was their enemy but later appeased by the Sultan.
The Americans always wanted Turkey close to Europe. In 2006 Bush said "let them join now and forget about economic convergence and all that fancy stuff". But GE-FR objected to this.

Not contradictory at all if you look at the history of the region. US has inherited British policy of supporting right wing religious groups in the middle east against secular nationalists. There are exceptions, of course, but the rule generally holds true in the past 200 years or so. In this particular case there is no great difference in ideology, and I doubt the US cared.

That is true about Turkey and Russia, but the relation went sour, as I'm sure you know, when the Russians intervened in Syria then reached a post-WWII low with the infamous downing of the Russian jet by the Turkish military. They didn't see eye to eye in Syria...but they are starting to, and that leave the US out of the equation. 

[cosmicway 1,333]

1 hour ago, CHOULO19 said:

Not contradictory at all if you look at the history of the region. US has inherited British policy of supporting right wing religious groups in the middle east against secular nationalists. There are exceptions, of course, but the rule generally holds true in the past 200 years or so. In this particular case there is no great difference in ideology, and I doubt the US cared.

That is true about Turkey and Russia, but the relation went sour, as I'm sure you know, when the Russians intervened in Syria then reached a post-WWII low with the infamous downing of the Russian jet by the Turkish military. They didn't see eye to eye in Syria...but they are starting to, and that leave the US out of the equation. 

Historically GB-USA favoured whoever was friendly to them. The Sultan was not -most of the time. But Kemal gradually befriended them.
There have been many switches and turns, ups and downs.
USA backed the religious Taliban in the USSR-Afghanistan war but look what happened next.
You are aware I expect that Bin Laded was interviewed by the American press in 1990. They wrote "what a fascinating, dedicated and enterprising young person, but hey, we were a little scared with all those armed men dressed in black who were surrounding him".
So it's impossible really to go to bed with nine-eleveners ! God forbid !

It sounds to me like you are supporting this thing:
USA can't really do the business of cleaning up the middle East, Russia can do better but USA would rather let the messy situation go on than make it easy for the Russians. So in this respect they may have wanted a whatever anti-russian government in Turkey rather than the not so anti-russian any more Tayip.
It's dangerously Machiavellian and kind of farfetched (n.b. with Donald the Donald as president maybe).
 

 

[johnnythefirst 1,076]

2 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

@johnnythefirst @cosmicway

By all the indicators so far, and we've had a few days no for the dust to settle now, the attempted coup in Turkey does NOT look like it had anything to do with secularism. Or at the very least it wasn't carried out by pro-secular forces. Instead, all the clues are pointing towards Fathallah Gulen, who, if anything, is more religious and extremist than Erdogan. 

That would obviously mean US and CIA involvement, but it does leave a question about the timing of the attempted coup. After all, it's not like they just NOW realized what an awful authoritarian Erdogan is, and by any means his supposed replacement was unlikely to be any better. Here is my analysis of it:

The attempted coup came after a couple of weeks of Turkish-Russian 'flirting' and courting coinciding with the redrawing of previously perceived 'internationally agreed lines' in Aleppo. THAT is dangerous to the US' interests in Syria because the US sees Turkey as its bargaining chip in Syria as they themselves do not hold any real power on the ground. All the so called US trained/backed groups in Syria (real and imagined) have very little power without the support of the Turkish army and the supply routes from within Turkey.  Indeed, after getting a lot of publicity a couple of months ago, their role has visibly decreased since the start of the Turkish-Russian coming together.

So theoretically, and probably practically as well, a Russian-Turkish-Assad agreement could well be effectively implemented on the ground in Syria since Turkey still maintains a better relation with (or rather a strangle hold on) the radical Islamist groups in Syria than any one else; meaning a solution could actually be implemented on the ground in Syria without taking into account the interests and demands of the US (and KSA). 

That, in my mind, is the most likely explanation, and if true, we should be seeing more Erdogan-Russain closeness, and more radical change on the ground in Syria which there has already been signs for. 

The US is not behind every evil thing in the world. The Turkish army has always 'protected' Turkish secularism. Gulen is a scapegoat to Erdogan, for him to point his finger at anyone he deems an 'enemy of the state'. As to date, about 60.000 people were jailed, suspended or fired, among them thousands of judges, teachers, et cetera. Several media channels have seen their freedom limited, all in the days after the coupe. I'm not buying US influence. Erdogan is using this thing to get rid of everyone who would ever oppose him. The only one who got out of this mess stronger is him. The friends I have in Istanbul live in fear right now, and say they are forced to live in a tyranny they never wanted or voted for. 

[johnnythefirst 1,076]

3 hours ago, cosmicway said:

Depends.
Everybody says that about everybody.
Football players should n't mix up with politics. But if Diego Costa makes a statement in favour of labour, the labourites among cfc fans will say "what a great lad" and the cons will cry "shame". The opposite statement will produce the similar effect.
We all speak about the inquisition but it's not real. The inquisition too is a much maligned institution.
The number of people they burned in 10 centuries of existence is a little over one thousand known wizards and sorcerers when the states were burning millions for as little as chasing the queen's deer.
The myth of the evil inquisition was created by the anglo-saxons of course, who in turn had to face the threat of the Spanish Armada at the time until saved by Sir Francis Drake. It was in those irregular circumstances that the myth was created.

 

What Diego Costa says or not says doesn't influence my life at all. It's his opinion. He has a right to an opinion. If some overly religious idiot gets elected and decides I can't divorce, have my wife wear a short skirt or fuck another man up the ass (who knows, I might want to one day) anymore, this will influence my life a lot.

I don't know why you are talking about the inquisition in this discussion. Religion mixed with politics causes hatred, oppression and war. If it's not the inquisition it's the crusades, the excommunication of world leaders by the pope in the good old days or the fact that in Saudi Arabia a woman can't drive a car. Law should be based on human rights, not on religious dogmas. 

I respect the fact a lot of people believe there's a Starman waiting in the sky (rip Bowie), but he shouldn't be allowed to influence the way I live my fucking life whatsoever. Not before he comes down and tells me in person. Then I will think about it.

[cosmicway 1,333]

53 minutes ago, johnnythefirst said:

What Diego Costa says or not says doesn't influence my life at all. It's his opinion. He has a right to an opinion. If some overly religious idiot gets elected and decides I can't divorce, have my wife wear a short skirt or fuck another man up the ass (who knows, I might want to one day) anymore, this will influence my life a lot.

I don't know why you are talking about the inquisition in this discussion. Religion mixed with politics causes hatred, oppression and war. If it's not the inquisition it's the crusades, the excommunication of world leaders by the pope in the good old days or the fact that in Saudi Arabia a woman can't drive a car. Law should be based on human rights, not on religious dogmas. 

I respect the fact a lot of people believe there's a Starman waiting in the sky (rip Bowie), but he shouldn't be allowed to influence the way I live my fucking life whatsoever. Not before he comes down and tells me in person. Then I will think about it.

Hmmm, I vaguely remember a kissing couple who were taken to court in 1961.
It happened in Syntagma square in Athens. For those who are familiar with the area it was infront of the Elysee cafe, where you take the green bus to Piraeus.
Karamanlis was prime minister at the time.
I don't know how big a kiss it was.
Our head at school was also the member of a religious organisation. What he did among other things was to make the school cantine buy the orange drinks that were made from a subsidiary of the said religious organisation. They were producing only blue, no fizzy orange. So for six years we had to drink blue orange only because of that.
So you see there are various antics that allow you and others to make noises. I 'm not going to say that the ultra-fanatics are good.
But ... what about the secret schools in Turkish occupied Greece ? How did the Greek language and national heritage survive ?
What about the bishops who blessed the arms of the revolution and also blew up themselves in the monasteries, when sieged ?
So I believe all this talk is exaggerated.
 

[lucio 5,418]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/19/mother-and-three-daughters-stabbed-in-french-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed-6016072/

Another terrible story following the same theme. And still nothing will get done

[kellzfresh 7,229]

18 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

56 civilians killed i.n just one airstrike by US led coalition in Syria today. I'm sure THAT will help a lot in the fight against terrorism...

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ia-kills-up-to-85-civilians-mistaken-for-isi/

I just saw this now, its a disgrace how the media is not reporting this anywhere. If its Assad helped by russia, theyll be no end of hearing it on the news

[CHOULO19 24,332]

4 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ia-kills-up-to-85-civilians-mistaken-for-isi/

I just saw this now, its a disgrace how the media is not reporting this anywhere. If its Assad helped by russia, theyll be no end of hearing it on the news

I believe the number of civilians killed by US led coalition  (mainly US and French airstrikes) since yesterday has exceeded 200 at the very least. 

And the US defense secretary has the nerve to come out a bit ago and say that they just killed 20 'ISIS members' planning attacks.