🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Frank Lampard

[Tomo 21,751]

3 minutes ago, Mana said:

Klopp put Liverpool to the Europa League final, first season with a shite squad. Klopp’s first season was already damaged because of Rodgers. Klopp had a way better CV than Lampard and Sarri put together at the time. I’ll definitely be more patient with him.

You wouldn't have moaned insessently when he lost to Swansea/Saints and Wolves at home within a week and followed it up shortly after with an away defeat at Hull?

You would have stood by him when he was given Karius chance after chance and glorified a home draw with West Brom?

I find that very hard believe.

[Henrique 9,133]

4 minutes ago, Fernando said:

He's the best for what we trying to do in the coming seasons. He is building a base to work with in the next season.I do expect us to be better next season. 

LOL

It seems you believe this board do have a long term plan for "coming seasons". Mate, Lampard was appointed and the kids were introduced basically for 2 reasons: Sarri walked away and transfer ban happened. Lampard was the best choice for this season. With no new players coming and without a manager the best thing to do was to introduce kids and go after a club legend to make the fans happy and involved with the club during the season.

Its a little optimistic to think that Lampard appointment and the use of academy is a product of a long term plan. I will go as far as saying that the likes of Mason Mount, Tomori, James and Abraham were not in the club plans for this season, and they are only involved in the first team because of the transfer ban.

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Mana said:

Klopp put Liverpool to the Europa League final, first season with a shite squad. Klopp’s first season was already damaged because of Rodgers. Klopp had a way better CV than Lampard and Sarri put together at the time. I’ll definitely be more patient with him.

Given your moaning record on here, I highly doubt it. 

[Tomo 21,751]

2 minutes ago, Mana said:

But Pep sent City to the Champions League place with that average squad.

Sarri sent us to the CL with an even worse squad but you never had a nice word to say about him.

[Fernando 6,585]

2 minutes ago, Mana said:

But Pep sent City to the Champions League place with that average squad.

Granted, the season isn't over yet and MAYBE United, Wolves and Sheffield Utd will screw up so bad that we are able to hang on to top 4 with our inconsistency results.

But that’s a big maybe. We shouldn’t even be 4th right now, but we still are.

Benitez season is all i can tell you. Go and see that season and you will see that the same thing is happening. You will ask how the heck we finish 3rd? Because everyone else is bad. 

[Fernando 6,585]

7 minutes ago, Henrique said:

LOL

It seems you believe this board do have a long term plan for "coming seasons". Mate, Lampard was appointed and the kids were introduced basically for 2 reasons: Sarri walked away and transfer ban happened. Lampard was the best choice for this season. With no new players coming and without a manager the best thing to do was to introduce kids and go after a club legend to make the fans happy and involved with the club during the season.

Its a little optimistic to think that Lampard appointment and the use of academy is a product of a long term plan. I will go as far as saying that the likes of Mason Mount, Tomori, James and Abraham were not in the club plans for this season, and they are only involved in the first team because of the transfer ban.

It could be true but now that this has happened I bet you that the board will now continue with it. After the financial loss that we had they might be more inclined to continue with Lampard if he continues with the youth and if in the second season he improves.

[Superblue 6,372]

14 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Win the first two season's of Klopp at Liverpool at Chelsea you would be the first to throw your toys out of the pram and say he's not good enough.

Spot on. Klopp would never have lasted at Chelsea with his initial time in the first couple of seasons at Liverpool. Even up to 18 months ago, despite Salah having a Ronaldo/Messi esque season and spending £80m on Van Dijk mid-season they were still only just scraping 4th back then.

He's an outstanding coach but it's easy to forget the patience he has enjoyed at Liverpool to reach this point. He had similar problems defensively to what we have now. A leaky defence, amateur mistakes, goalkeeping errors. He didn't coach that out of the side he went and spent the best part of £150m to fix that issue.

There are areas defensively we can do better on and areas that Lampard has to coach this team to improve, but the only way basic errors and mistakes are going to be removed is either being confident enough that the players making them are young enough to cut them out in time and in that situation you almost have to ride them out. I think in the case of Tomori and James you can make a case for that but not the rest of the defence and midfield. Or you replace them. Even with the transfer ban lifted, January is not the window to make huge changes but this summer Lampard has to start putting his own stamp on this team and be ruthless.

[Henrique 9,133]

8 minutes ago, Mana said:

Klopp put Liverpool to the Europa League final, first season with a shite squad. Klopp’s first season was already damaged because of Rodgers. Klopp had a way better CV than Lampard and Sarri put together at the time. I’ll definitely be more patient with him.

Mate, I agree with 100% of what you are saying...but I would give Lampard at least one proper transfer window to see what happens. He already dropped Mount and thats a good thing, and he also want to bring Cavani and he said after the defeat to Newcastle that the team need to be more clinical at the front. I will agree with him. Costa was easily our best player when he was around (yes, he was more important than Hazard), that why I always get angry when people lick Conte's balls after what he did to Costa. How many games like the games against Arsenal and Newcastle that we won because Costa found a way to score goals against tight defenses?

Abraham needs competition. When Bats is the option when you need to score goals, then there is a big problem. William never scored many goals, thats why under Conte and Sarri Pedro was starting games ahead of him.

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, Henrique said:

Mate, I agree with 100% of what you are saying...but I would give Lampard at least one proper transfer window to see what happens. He already dropped Mount and thats a good thing, and he also want to bring Cavani and he said after the defeat to Newcastle that the team need to be more clinical at the front. I will agree with him. Costa was easily our best player when he was around (yes, he was more important than Hazard), that why I always get angry when people lick Conte's balls after what he did to Costa. How many games like the games against Arsenal and Newcastle that we won because Costa found a way to score goals against tight defenses?

Abraham needs competition. When Bats is the option when you need to score goals, then there is a big problem. William never scored many goals, thats why under Conte and Sarri Pedro was starting games ahead of him.

Costa has been hopeless since returning to Atletico. Only 14 goals scored in 59 games and he has had injury problems. We sold him at the right time. The main problem, like always, is that we didn't find someone who is actually good to replace him. 

[Henrique 9,133]

Just now, Jason said:

Costa has been hopeless since returning to Atletico. Only 14 goals scored in 59 games and he has had injury problems. We sold him at the right time. The main problem, like always, is that we didn't find someone who is actually good to replace him. 

This argument doesn't make sense. Hazard was on fire when he left. He probably will be a flop for Madrid, it doesn't mean he was sold at the right time. Costa was great when he was playing for us, if he hopeless since he returned to Atletico doesn't me he would be hopeless if he had stayed.

[Tomo 21,751]

2 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Spot on. Klopp would never have lasted at Chelsea with his initial time in the first couple of seasons at Liverpool. Even up to 18 months ago, despite Salah having a Ronaldo/Messi esque season and spending £80m on Van Dijk mid-season they were still only just scraping 4th back then.

He's an outstanding coach but it's easy to forget the patience he has enjoyed at Liverpool to reach this point. He had similar problems defensively to what we have now. A leaky defence, amateur mistakes, goalkeeping errors. He didn't coach that out of the side he went and spent the best part of £150m to fix that issue.

There are areas defensively we can do better on and areas that Lampard has to coach this team to improve, but the only way basic errors and mistakes are going to be removed is either being confident enough that the players making them are young enough to cut them out in time and in that situation you almost have to ride them out. I think in the case of Tomori and James you can make a case for that but not the rest of the defence and midfield. Or you replace them. Even with the transfer ban lifted, January is not the window to make huge changes but this summer Lampard has to start putting his own stamp on this team and be ruthless.

I've tried to deny this to myself for some time but we have a ridiculously Impatient fanbase, I'd go as far as saying as bad as Real Madrid's.

I very much don't mind the critisism that's fair game, I've been very vocal myself about how annoyed I was the Jorgi/Kova/Mount midfield was broken up so prematurely but the comments that there's been absolutely no signs of a good end product or he hasn't improved a single player is laughable. For example we've won three big away games this season (could say four if you include this very good Wolves side) after not winning a single one for over two years, and all of them were won in big part to tactical decisions by Lampard. 

There very much has to be evolvement in Lampard's management season by season and if there's not I'll be the first to concede it's not working, but considering the transfer embargo, losing Hazard and trying to rebuild an entire new core of players and despite that we're in 4th, 7 points of last season's total at this stage and 4 in the same fixtures we've played is decent all in all.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Henrique said:

This argument doesn't make sense. Hazard was on fire when he left. He probably will be a flop for Madrid, it doesn't mean he was sold at the right time. Costa was great when he was playing for us, if he hopeless since he returned to Atletico doesn't me he would be hopeless if he had stayed.

lol That's like saying Fabregas, Nasri, Van Persie etc would have been successful had they stayed at Arsenal instead of going elsewhere. 

[Henrique 9,133]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

lol That's like saying Fabregas, Nasri, Van Persie etc would have been successful had they stayed at Arsenal instead of going elsewhere. 

No, thats completely different, its actually the opposite.

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, Henrique said:

No, thats completely different.

Sure, whatever you say...

[Tomo 21,751]

2 minutes ago, Mana said:

But if he doesn’t...do you really want to waste another year praying he will sort this out? People will go and say KLOPP! But if Klopp is Lampard right now, at least you can point to his CV and say, “He has won trophies with BVB against Bayern Munich. Give him time.”

But what could Dortmund point too when they struggled under Klopp initially? What could Spurs point too when Pochettino was struggling badly initially?

Sometimes you need to look with foresight instead of hindsight, watch the best games of this season (Ajax away, Watford away, Brighton home, Spurs away, even 3/4, half's against Liverpool one of which we forced who are sadly about to become the best PL side ever into park the bus tactics) and tell me there's no signs of something decent.

[Henrique 9,133]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Sure, whatever you say...

Its not difficult to understand its different. You gave example of players who were more successful after they left former clubs. I gave example of players who were less successful after they left their former clubs.

Kaka was AC Milan best player. After he left he was a huge flop for Ream Madrid. By your argument, if Kaka had stayed at Milan he would have been playing as bad as he did for Real, so Milan could say "well, we sold him at the right time, because after he left he didn't play well". But that not how things work. Costa was key for Conte's system. 

[Superblue 6,372]

The biggest issue we have is scoring enough goals to kill teams off or get the odd goal to win a tight game.

I struggle to see how any other coach would help this situation with our attacking options once Hazard left. Take Tammy out who is still young and inexperienced at the highest level (and had similar issues in the Championship with regards to needing a few chances to score) and we have no goalscorers in this team.

Plan A earlier in the season of dominating teams and playing through them worked superbly with Jorginho and Kovacic, but now teams have realised to plug the gaps in the middle and force us wide we don't have the players to play this way. 

Reece James hasn't stayed fit to play a regular run of games yet this season, but if he was fit and a high quality left back was purchased that would make a huge difference because we'd suddenly have two full backs capable of making the by-line and having a good delivery. That in turn will also allow the wide players and a Mount/Barkley/hopefully RLC to be much more direct and be crowding the opponents box. At the moment our full backs aren't good enough which means our wide players are playing wider and not narrower. So when the ball comes in, we usually have Tammy in the box and nothing else. It may not completely solve things, because our wide players have to be hungry and selfish enough to be getting into the box and getting goals. I think Pulisic and CHO could probably do this over time but again it's needing time and patience still for players to develop that trait to their game, much like someone like Sterling has over the last couple of years because he wasn't that type of player at Liverpool.

[Tomo 21,751]

1 minute ago, Mana said:

For Dortmund, I cannot say because I don’t watch them especially in the Klopp days bar one or two matches.

For Spuds, Poch coached Kane, Alli (and Son later) to become better players. Poch did a better job than Sherwood on his first season. 

At around November in his first season they were struggling badly results wise, Kane was yet to emerge and Alli and Son were still at Mk Done and Leverkusen.

His CV prior to Spurs was a solid spell at Saints and getting sacked by Espanol while bottom of the table, that didn't suggest he could have taken Spurs to the heights he did but Levy looked at what he was seeing instead of what went before. The example in reverse would be Jose, has the "CV" but would you trust him with this project?

And Pochettino season one actually had less points than Sherwood/AVB just to put that out there.

5 minutes ago, Mana said:

You can point to the good performance games but everyone you listed (bar Spuds away) was before the last international break. After that break, I don’t know what Lampard did, or the players are just tired but ever since then it has been overall shocking.

Development of a young side isn't linear, and if I want to mention more since the international break there's Villa and Lillie, two games we dominated and were only kept close due to spectacular keeper displays (Heaton) and dreadful finishing (Lillie).

7 minutes ago, Mana said:

At the end of the season, if we failed to get top 4 I’m not going to look at those games and say “That’s progress!” Because we actually did worse than Sarri. 

In a season like this it needs to be looked at with more context than league position.

For example, dropping the young players, bringing back Giroud, Pedro, Alonso etc and shithouse our way to third or keep going with the youth, have some great games but miss out on top 4 due to the greeness but decent building blocks to go forward never the less?

Id take the latter all day every day

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

Watching Willian tonight, matter of fact the past few games, reminded me of how utterly useless he is in the final third. So utterly predictable. 

Lee Dixon was on my stream tonight, and he was in awe for Willian the entire 90 minutes. Stating the club should listen to Lampard and give him a new contract. Lee Dixon thinks a player that averages less than 10 league goals a season, is good enough for Chelsea football Club. That's the standard he thinks we are at. 

If it's true that Lampard wants to push to continue the club to rely on him in the extent that we do, then he is part of the problem. 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

Three clean sheets in fifteen in all competitions is diabolical and with some of the games we've got coming up this stat won't improve.