Non-Chelsea Transfer Pub

[The only place to be 11,313]

I just don't think he has the discipline or the intelligence to play as our DM.

Unfortunately, this is exactly my criticism of Mikel. The guy is often a passenger in the team and lacks the ability to impose himself on games. When we're playing well, he gets carried along but when we're struggling he's often one of the first heads to drop.

I've brought it up before but the Juventus second goal sums him up to a tee. He loses the ball and gives up. No-one can defend that because for a top-level sportsman in that position, it's indefensible. I'm probably harsh on him because I've been so lucky to see players like Makelele in the flesh gracing Stamford Bridge. He was a one-off but you could just learn so much from watching him - his positional sense was out of this world and he almost redefined that position.

Now Mikel is asked to do something a little different and more akin to Busquets at Barca at times, especially when we're in possession, but he simply isn't up to it when we're under pressure. He's also one of the most lackadaisical players I've ever seen. When he's caught out of position (something that happens far too often for my liking) there's usually a distinct lack of hustle to get back.

I also question his mentality and attitude with regards his discipline on the pitch. A couple of times he's got into yellow card trouble for arguing the toss with referees. This is a guy who has played about 200 games for the club yet still acts like a petulant kid at times. Also, despite all those games I've never seen a player so viewed with apathy by the supporters. His fans will say 'they don't understand his worth to the team' or some other unutterable bullshit, but these same fans revered Makelele. They've witnessed some of the greatest players ever to grace pitches yet they simply can't judge this one players worth???

Bull and indeed shit.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

In my opinion, we don't need someone who can pass it long from that position. What we need is someone reliable who can get the ball off quickly to one of the creative players and who doesn't give up. That's it. There's a reason why people like De Visser have been high on him for years and it's why we have been linked with him for almost two years now.

I seriously think proper deeplying playmakers are underestimated. If we don't have a long range passer in our central midfield, the total football roman wants us to play can never be achieved.

With a regista, our ball possesion will increase drastically and he can threaten the opposition with through balls from deep.

Imagine barca without xavi, or juve without pirlo. Their possesion stats will reduce drastically and make the opponents have the ball more.

Chelsea never had this kind of player, that's why having mazacar seems its not enough at times (against juve and shaktar we were dominated in the center midfield).

Oscar has those qualities with his play but he is too weak, if he can develop into that kind of player in the future, it will be a big bonus to us.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

Yeah, but except Barca, no one that tries to play tiki taka is sucessful nowdays. Yes people enoy watching it (thats why Ajax has so many fans), but it doesnt give you big results. Arsenal are fine example (well they sold their best players too, they would have fantastic squad if they kept Rvp, Cesc, Song, Adebayor, Cole,...), still the style just seems its not efficient. Real is trying to play nice football, but even they have issues with inconsistency. Ronaldo saves them many times too.

I dont want us to play tikitaka, I never liked that style, and only Barca was sucess in that. I want us to be efficient in front of opponent goal and not open our legs wide in front of our goal.

But lets wait for a manager, some new players, what style will we play and end with transition. Then make judgement, I will.

But why you're still talking about tiki taka? its not the point! Real dont play tiki taka, Bayren, Durtmond, Shaktar.... but they are all play very progressive football that bring the results too.

"Real is trying to play nice football, but even they have issues with inconsistency"- who doesnt have issues with inconsistency? no one is perfect. and what Arsenal has to do with that? when they had great players their style was very efficient, in the last 7-8 years their players havent been good enough to win the league or CL. They played with a very young team, and when the players grow to be one of the best in the world, they sold them.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I seriously think proper deeplying playmakers are underestimated. If we don't have a long range passer in our central midfield, the total football roman wants us to play can never be achieved.

With a regista, our ball possesion will increase drastically and he can threaten the opposition with through balls from deep.

Imagine barca without xavi, or juve without pirlo. Their possesion stats will reduce drastically and make the opponents have the ball more.

Chelsea never had this kind of player, that's why having mazacar seems its not enough at times (against juve and shaktar we were dominated in the center midfield).

Oscar has those qualities with his play but he is too weak, if he can develop into that kind of player in the future, it will be a big bonus to us.

I'm not saying we can't have a playmaker alongside Fellaini/Mikel. In fact I'd be inclined to stick Oscar in there, and I don't think he's too weak. He's got a certain amount of bite about him and isn't afraid to get stuck in.

The wild card in this whole discussion is what happens with David Luiz. I have serious doubts about his ability to play in midfield but it seems like Rafa could try him there.

[Muzchap 8,966]

I'm not saying we can't have a playmaker alongside Fellaini/Mikel. In fact I'd be inclined to stick Oscar in there, and I don't think he's too weak. He's got a certain amount of bite about him and isn't afraid to get stuck in.

The wild card in this whole discussion is what happens with David Luiz. I have serious doubts about his ability to play in midfield but it seems like Rafa could try him there.

Anywhere except defence

I'd sign Fellani and have both of those up front!

Sideshow Bob attack!!!

[The only place to be 11,313]

Anywhere except defence

I'd sign Fellani and have both of those up front!

Sideshow Bob attack!!!

[BlueLyon 9,359]

But why you're still talking about tiki taka? its not the point! Real dont play tiki taka, Bayren, Durtmond, Shaktar.... but they are all play very progressive football that bring the results too.

"Real is trying to play nice football, but even they have issues with inconsistency"- who doesnt have issues with inconsistency? no one is perfect. and what Arsenal has to do with that? when they had great players their style was very efficient, in the last 7-8 years their players havent been good enough to win the league or CL. They played with a very young team, and when the players grow to be one of the best in the world, they sold them.

Either you play direct football (with wingers) or passing football (with CAMs).

Bayern, Madrid, United HAVE wingers. They use width and speed to score with either quick counters or planned attacking.

Barca has playmakers and wingers; they are special example and thats why they are sucessful with their philosophy. Arsenal had playmakers (Cesc, Nasri,...) and it didnt gave them results. They coundnt even beat Birmingham (?) in that Carling cup final year ago...it wasnt because of they sold players, but because of their mentality.

We have players with awkward mentality at moment, no hardworkers ala Vidal, no die hard club lovers (not counting old legends like Terry, Lamps, Cole, Cech,etc.). Only Moses and Mata seem to realy try and even Mata gets tired too quickly. He just doesnt have engine like Iniesta for example...

So either you play direct football with wingers or passing forever with three attacking playmakers. We have Oscar, Hazard and Mata. They dont offer quick runs, wide play etc. Im not saying about tiki taka but about passing game. We can only pass forever, but there is no plan B and no end product. Even with direct football, like Bayern plays or RM, you can play beautiful. Why did we go to this team play with no wingers, it questions me. That is the point. If we had Hazard (the one from Lille)-Mata-Bale/Sanchez/Moses (improved one)/Dzsudzsak in formation 4:3:3, our play speed would increase and we would have all round attack; dribbling, quick passing, crossing, distance shooting. Now, we only have endless passing, what I call tikitaka. How many times we scored from distance this season? from cross? from great dribble from our winger? One way attack, opponent will place four muscled giants in front of their goal and we are screwed.

There is some reason for bad results as we are in transition, with no real manager and no striker, but Mata-Oscar-Hazard just wont work. Too one dimensional and unconsistent/lacks of pace and stamina. We have no wide play and you cant compare us to Bayern, Shakhtar,...They dont play tikitaka but direct wing football. We dont have wingers. You cant win big matches in that way. With Mazacar, we also dont have philosophy and coach to direct them to play more efficient.

Final time to place Oscar in CM and buy a winger to play along Mata and Hazard.

We had Mata as our playmaker and in summer we need to buy a winger and CM (rumours about Modric). Then we bought playmaker (Hazard) instead of winger; but he could play fantastic as winger, so I had no problem. Then we bought another Cam, instead of CM. Oscar was planed to play in Modric position, then he moved upfront, leaving us with no width, DPL, height, speed, strenght,...

In first games, we rock our opponent didnt known our style. Then they saw how one dimensional we are and stoped us with ease. You dont spend 80mio and then cant win one game in a row of 6, transition is not problem, but players and their mentality. At least we have Moses to open the game more.

[The Skipper 20,593]

The truth is that he wasn't mediocre when he was deployed in that position at Everton. He was one of the best players in the league at the age of about 22/23. Now he's been moved further up the pitch partly because Everton lost Cahill and partly because he's just so damned effective there, and people want to rewrite history.

He wasn't one of the best players in the league at all. He's only been appreciated as a player when he's moved up further in midfield - no one wanted Fellaini here till his recent attacking displays. You're trying to rewrite history yourself. You can't prove that Fellaini was one of the elite DMs in the PL when he played. He's only started to really excel when he's been moved up forward. He's not better than what we have when he plays as a DM.

[The only place to be 11,313]

He wasn't one of the best players in the league at all. He's only been appreciated as a player when he's moved up further in midfield - no one wanted Fellaini here till his recent attacking displays. You're trying to rewrite history yourself. You can't prove that Fellaini was one of the elite DMs in the PL when he played. He's only started to really excel when he's been moved up forward. He's not better than what we have when he plays as a DM.

Sorry mate, but we were looking at him in 2010 when Carlo was here. We actually scouted him when he was at Liege like a lot of top clubs but we were late to the party (De Visser was particularly keen to get him) because the quoted figure was too high. He was actually 'moved up further in midfield' in his first season at Everton too so this really isn't anything new.

But he's always seen himself as a DM and the view at Everton was that he'd eventually move back but that's a little in dispute now.

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

now that is a game out of the textbook. Close to no chances for Sunderland. Torres has a good day, hope he is able to hold that

3-1 unnecessary goal to concede, could easily have prohibited that. Btw why does a player like johnson only play for a club like sunderland this guy is class. should throw in marin and lamps now. double pivot of ramires and oscar is shit

oops wrong thread

but hey,

what about Adam Johnson as acquisition

[nadavTKL 1,787]

Either you play direct football (with wingers) or passing football (with CAMs).

Bayern, Madrid, United HAVE wingers. They use width and speed to score with either quick counters or planned attacking.

Barca has playmakers and wingers; they are special example and thats why they are sucessful with their philosophy. Arsenal had playmakers (Cesc, Nasri,...) and it didnt gave them results. They coundnt even beat Birmingham (?) in that Carling cup final year ago...it wasnt because of they sold players, but because of their mentality.

We have players with awkward mentality at moment, no hardworkers ala Vidal, no die hard club lovers (not counting old legends like Terry, Lamps, Cole, Cech,etc.). Only Moses and Mata seem to realy try and even Mata gets tired too quickly. He just doesnt have engine like Iniesta for example...

So either you play direct football with wingers or passing forever with three attacking playmakers. We have Oscar, Hazard and Mata. They dont offer quick runs, wide play etc. Im not saying about tiki taka but about passing game. We can only pass forever, but there is no plan B and no end product. Even with direct football, like Bayern plays or RM, you can play beautiful. Why did we go to this team play with no wingers, it questions me. That is the point. If we had Hazard (the one from Lille)-Mata-Bale/Sanchez/Moses (improved one)/Dzsudzsak in formation 4:3:3, our play speed would increase and we would have all round attack; dribbling, quick passing, crossing, distance shooting. Now, we only have endless passing, what I call tikitaka. How many times we scored from distance this season? from cross? from great dribble from our winger? One way attack, opponent will place four muscled giants in front of their goal and we are screwed.

There is some reason for bad results as we are in transition, with no real manager and no striker, but Mata-Oscar-Hazard just wont work. Too one dimensional and unconsistent/lacks of pace and stamina. We have no wide play and you cant compare us to Bayern, Shakhtar,...They dont play tikitaka but direct wing football. We dont have wingers. You cant win big matches in that way. With Mazacar, we also dont have philosophy and coach to direct them to play more efficient.

Final time to place Oscar in CM and buy a winger to play along Mata and Hazard.

We had Mata as our playmaker and in summer we need to buy a winger and CM (rumours about Modric). Then we bought playmaker (Hazard) instead of winger; but he could play fantastic as winger, so I had no problem. Then we bought another Cam, instead of CM. Oscar was planed to play in Modric position, then he moved upfront, leaving us with no width, DPL, height, speed, strenght,...

In first games, we rock our opponent didnt known our style. Then they saw how one dimensional we are and stoped us with ease. You dont spend 80mio and then cant win one game in a row of 6, transition is not problem, but players and their mentality. At least we have Moses to open the game more.

1. I do think we could be very good with "passing game", that also build on fast transitions from defense to attack and pressure. I think we could do that with a midfield of Moutinho and Oscar beside the CDM, and Hazard, Mata and a striker uprfront. I think it could work with the right manager. And it doesnt have to be one-dimensional, it depends on the players you have. With fast players in midfield which we will have with the players i've mentioned, explosive striker (like Falcao or Cavani) this side can play fast, with width. btw you are talking like Barca dont have width at all, they do play it alot, familiar with Dani Alves?

2. About width in our current team- you answerd yourself. If we want to play this way we do have Hazard who offers width, he did it very good at Lille and in the last few games he does it more for Chelsea, and we have Moses who play regulary under Benitez so far. With those two players in the line up i dont think we lack width. What we do still need is someone to organize the game, and i would like to see Oscar in the position he played today. Yes Oscar still look a bit soft to play this role, but with more hard work from Mata, Hazard and Moses (and it depends on the manager orders only), it could work better then Ramires and Mikel.

[communicate 2,703]

Yeah, but except Barca, no one that tries to play tiki taka is sucessful nowdays. Yes people enoy watching it (thats why Ajax has so many fans), but it doesnt give you big results. Arsenal are fine example (well they sold their best players too, they would have fantastic squad if they kept Rvp, Cesc, Song, Adebayor, Cole,...), still the style just seems its not efficient. Real is trying to play nice football, but even they have issues with inconsistency. Ronaldo saves them many times too.

I dont want us to play tikitaka, I never liked that style, and only Barca was sucess in that. I want us to be efficient in front of opponent goal and not open our legs wide in front of our goal.

But lets wait for a manager, some new players, what style will we play and end with transition. Then make judgement, I will.

Nobody says we are going to play tiki taka and it's about playing more possession football. Arsenal should have won the league 2 years ago but wenger was so tight with his money. They just need one big signing and the should have won the league.

Nah Real is not a possesion team, I saw one interview that one la liga manager even said that they want madrid to have more possession because they are not that good at it. Ronaldo is just a good player in possession team but in counter attacking team he is outstanding.

A good example is Bayern,team with plenty of technical player and try to boss the game

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

1. I do think we could be very good with "passing game", that also build on fast transitions from defense to attack and pressure. I think we could do that with a midfield of Moutinho and Oscar beside the CDM, and Hazard, Mata and a striker uprfront. I think it could work with the right manager. And it doesnt have to be one-dimensional, it depends on the players you have. With fast players in midfield which we will have with the players i've mentioned, explosive striker (like Falcao or Cavani) this side can play fast, with width. btw you are talking like Barca dont have width at all, they do play it alot, familiar with Dani Alves?

2. About width in our current team- you answerd yourself. If we want to play this way we do have Hazard who offers width, he did it very good at Lille and in the last few games he does it more for Chelsea, and we have Moses who play regulary under Benitez so far. With those two players in the line up i dont think we lack width. What we do still need is someone to organize the game, and i would like to see Oscar in the position he played today. Yes Oscar still look a bit soft to play this role, but with more hard work from Mata, Hazard and Moses (and it depends on the manager orders only), it could work better then Ramires and Mikel.

I mentioned beofre, a deep lying playmaker who can spread the ball and incent the counter + a direct out-and-out winger with real pace, who can cross and shoot like Bale or Sanchez would make us a force, because we could easily shift. the difference between Hazard and Bale is that Hazrd might be better technically and also is a better passer, but Bale has such a high capacity of running, he can defend without that impeding his offensive contribution. Hazard gets tired while defending and hence is not able to burst out of defence for the break as we have seen several times today. Mata, Oscar, Moses, Bertrand are all fast, but lack that lightning pace a world-class winger has over any distance. Even into space they slow themselves down, taking too many touches, looking for the pass all the tiem instead of just kicking the ball into space and sprinting after it. I think sturridge is our only attacker who can rally do that + outsprint everyone, but he is no winger.

As for DLPM I got no idea who is out there, but i see any of our midifelders except Romeu and the loan boys josh and Kevin (but they are still young, ahve to develop) as a fit for a double pivot. Real madrid is probably the team with the best double pivot. Khedira + Xabi alonso. Both can defend and distribute and have a wide range of movement with khedira occupying rather a "destroyer" part and alonso is the playmaker from deep. at the no. 10 they got özil, who spares the playmaking duties with xabi alonso and that's it. Neither Ronaldo, nor di maria are playmakers. Both are lightning fast and strong dribblers, have a wicked shot and then you just need a good striker up front. But we opted against playing this way, playing posession football.

IMO a 4-3-3 like spain and Barca play is better in this case, cos when you got you playmakers in a deeper position (xavi and/or iniesta always find themselves in the middle of the pitch) they got the play in front of them and do not have to dribble around all the time to find space. they do not need to create space as there are lightning wingers like pedro, sanchez and messi who do. Xavi + Iniesta are actually very good defenders. Barca spare themselves energy cos they get the ball back soon due to their great pressing and movement. Mata, Oscar can't do that so we play them further up front. As a consequence of our double pivot not being able to either build-up play or ball retention, they have to be all over the place resulting in early fatigue. If you had the playmaking duties delayed into the centre and some genuine wingers, who simply cover their flank but not have to be all over the pitch you can solve this.

With the players and the system we have now we will never win a big title. I don't know what was the idea or the concept behind buying AMs to overkill instead of deciding on the football, then on the system and then on the players. but we have either have to axe one of the three maestros or dragging one of them, preferably oscar behind + shift back to 4-3-3, cos our 4-2-3-1 is not how it should work with the players we have.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

I mentioned beofre, a deep lying playmaker who can spread the ball and incent the counter + a direct out-and-out winger with real pace, who can cross and shoot like Bale or Sanchez would make us a force, because we could easily shift. the difference between Hazard and Bale is that Hazrd might be better technically and also is a better passer, but Bale has such a high capacity of running, he can defend without that impeding his offensive contribution. Hazard gets tired while defending and hence is not able to burst out of defence for the break as we have seen several times today. Mata, Oscar, Moses, Bertrand are all fast, but lack that lightning pace a world-class winger has over any distance. Even into space they slow themselves down, taking too many touches, looking for the pass all the tiem instead of just kicking the ball into space and sprinting after it. I think sturridge is our only attacker who can rally do that + outsprint everyone, but he is no winger.

As for DLPM I got no idea who is out there, but i see any of our midifelders except Romeu and the loan boys josh and Kevin (but they are still young, ahve to develop) as a fit for a double pivot. Real madrid is probably the team with the best double pivot. Khedira + Xabi alonso. Both can defend and distribute and have a wide range of movement with khedira occupying rather a "destroyer" part and alonso is the playmaker from deep. at the no. 10 they got özil, who spares the playmaking duties with xabi alonso and that's it. Neither Ronaldo, nor di maria are playmakers. Both are lightning fast and strong dribblers, have a wicked shot and then you just need a good striker up front. But we opted against playing this way, playing posession football.

IMO a 4-3-3 like spain and Barca play is better in this case, cos when you got you playmakers in a deeper position (xavi and/or iniesta always find themselves in the middle of the pitch) they got the play in front of them and do not have to dribble around all the time to find space. they do not need to create space as there are lightning wingers like pedro, sanchez and messi who do. Xavi + Iniesta are actually very good defenders. Barca spare themselves energy cos they get the ball back soon due to their great pressing and movement. Mata, Oscar can't do that so we play them further up front. As a consequence of our double pivot not being able to either build-up play or ball retention, they have to be all over the place resulting in early fatigue. If you had the playmaking duties delayed into the centre and some genuine wingers, who simply cover their flank but not have to be all over the pitch you can solve this.

With the players and the system we have now we will never win a big title. I don't know what was the idea or the concept behind buying AMs to overkill instead of deciding on the football, then on the system and then on the players. but we have either have to axe one of the three maestros or dragging one of them, preferably oscar behind + shift back to 4-3-3, cos our 4-2-3-1 is not how it should work with the players we have.

What would you say about playing 4-3-3 like this:

-----CDM-----

Oscar-Moutinho

Mata----Hazard

--------ST--------

And you dont have to look at Real or at any other team and say "with dont have that, so it wont work", I think its too much for any of us to declare "That would work 100%" or "that would never work". the thing is about to find the right system when the manager will come and do some serious job, and imo we can get results of succses with the three of Hazard, Mata and Oscar with some changes. The formation i wrote is another option. I do agree we need players in, like i said in this topic a deep lying playmaker could change our game.

I dont realy want Bale in my team, i think he's too one-dimensional to play in a realy realy good team which is what we want to be. You talked about Di maria, another winger, i dont think he's good enough either to be a regular starter for Real, fact is almost every Real fan i know thinks the same, especially this season. Imo a winger this days (in ther highest levels) has to be more versitale, Di Maria and Bale arent imo. I also think Hazard and Moses can offer enough width, but again- orders from the manager are key, and the speed we are playing in is vital for them to be more direct. With a good double pivot our game will flow better and faster. Today Hazard always need to come back to midfield and organize the game with Mata, it doesnt need to be he's job!

* btw, no matter what your opinion is, i think its important to remmember that when we are talking about Oscar and Hazard we are talking about players in their first season in England and in the team.

[Leif 6,006]

Why not go for Diame?

Like Moses, since he's not been at a 'top club' he's at times unfairly underrated and not given the credit he deserves.

He bossed against us.

I kept preaching we should sign him last season. I think he's the perfect squad player.

Didn't we have concrete interest in him in the Summer? Or am I mistaken?

ANYWAY, his release clause is only £3.5m!

[Leif 6,006]

According to Barcastuff on Twitter, we're preparing a 37m (No idea what currency it's in) bid for Busquets after scouting him last week.

He rarely posts anything unless he's very confident there's some truth to it.

How about we get Busquets and we give them Romeu back? Nice little deal.

[Sheva. 5,373]

^ http://www.mirror.co...0m-move-1480818

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with my subjective views - it's about people talking complete bollocks about somewhat objective facts. People who don't seem to know what position Fellaini actually played just two years ago or how well-regarded he was, yet still try and offer an opinion is just utterly pointless to any debate.

You can rely on stats and misrepresent them as much as you like, but try watching a bit of football and then maybe you won't say such complete bullshit. The fact that you haven't addressed a single point but have thrown the toys out of the pram is a little much isn't it?

Seriously, just fuck off. "Try watching some football?" Go back to wherever you were before you polluted this forum. The lowest form of argument to pretend that people who disagree with you don't know anything. Some of the best posters on this board, many of the members of the month don't think Fellaini would be a good fit at Chelsea. We're all a bunch of idiots though, right because only you can see the true value of a player. Only you can understand how football works. Everyone else, must bow down before your superior knowledge. I have addressed every point you've made. Fellaini is not a defensive midfielder, even when he played defensive midfielder years ago, he went forward much more than defensive midfielders normally do (or generally should), he is vastly superior in a central or attacking role, he is deeply flawed as a defensive player, and he's be insanely expensive for a defensive midfielder. nobody sane would buy Fellaini to move him to a position he was worse at, and your only retort is "watch some football", "you're lying", and other insults. You clearly have no idea what a defensive midfielder is supposed to do and what makes a top defensive midfielder and if you missed Fellaini's poor positioning and stupid tackles, you also clearly are incapable of seeing and understanding basic roles in football. Maybe your football manager game says Fellaini-DM so you're confused.