Juan Mata

[kellzfresh 7,226]

That's exactly how I feel, but rarely say it myself so I don't sound ungrateful or harsh.

But imo the truth is when Mata came in we were the team parking the bus against strong opposition because our midfield lacked any creativity, power and brilliance. So of course he shined, after all he is quality.

I still believe he is overrated and to say what you said in other words, he isn't big enough to be THE player in a team like Chelsea plans to become. I'm not sure he has much more to grow - to be honest - so his ceiling is probably not much higher than where he is now, while Hazard and Oscar seem to have miles to grow. Out of the three, he's the less brilliant one, but the other two are too young and still have to grow and mature a lot, and let's not forget continue to adapt to EPL.

And the fact that Mourinho seems to hint that he will move him from his undoubtedly best position, shows he might think the same because if he believed Mata was the best player in the team, he wouldn't move him to a position that isn't his favorite (not because of personal preferences, but because of results). I don't expect any less as Mourinho understand football better than any of us. If some of us can see this, Mourinho definitely sees this and more. I have no doubt as the young guns gain confidence, Mata will lose space in the team. It's the obvious thing to happen - unless the young guys like Hazard and Oscar and then Kevin don't progress as everyone expects them to progress (those things aren't completely predictable and some players never live up their potential. I hope that's not the case with those three)

You just further prove my point with this post. In a team there had huge midfield deficiencies and then two adapting players, Mata rose above all, but really, his ceiling isn't this high thing you seem to imagine. Nobody here - as far as I can say - thinks he's done in his growth,but just like every other 25yo player that there isn't that much left to improve. He will improve in things like the ones you mentioned, of course he will, every player working under Mourinho does, otherwise they visit the bench. But there's a reason players the same age as him had chances in Spain NT where he continues to be a reserve. And when VDB tried to use him in the starting XI against Brazil, he was one of the most useless players in the match... He did basically nothing for Spain and the team improved when Navas got in.

Which comes back to the point that against big teams with good defenses he tends to disappear because while being a hard worker, and consistent in his play, he isn't what I would call brilliant. Great yes, but not brilliant and that's my point since the beginning. Chelsea fans - on their majority - for the lack of a star in the midfield - made Mata seem much bigger than he really is. In teams with good midfielders he would never be THE player. Just the next great guy contributing to it. So according to your own post he needs better teammates to reach a certain level, whereas brilliant players are the ones that reverse a negative situation, by owing a zone in the pitch (and in rare cases even the whole team) and making a difference. So yeah.

Note that I don't think he's bad, far from it. But when you see the very top teams and see who their stars are and you compare them to Mata, you see the point Magic Lamps was trying to make.

We already won every title that is there to win. We don't have to prove we can. Now we have to prove we can be as big as teams like Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona and Manchester United. In teams like those Mata wouldn't ever be the main star. Ever. But he would be one of their key players, which I think is what he'll become to us.

And I personally am not looking for a flashy player. Oscar has a higher ceiling than Mata imo and it doesn't get less flashy than Oscar...

That's because Mourinho - better than any of us here - knows where there's more potential. I think in a year from now both Oscar and Kevin will threaten Mata's position in the team - if they continue to grow as expected (the three of them).

you ended up being harsh on mata lol.

But what i understand from your post is that the top clubs in the world have better star players when on form

Bayern - Ribery

Dortmund - Lewandoski

Real madrid - Ronaldo

Barcelona - Messi

Juventus - Pirlo

So in order to dominate europe as one of the worlds best teams, we need that star player on those people's level to score goals and wow the world. And we all hope hazard would be that man, if he starts adding goals to his game.

[Stingray 9,441]

Sometimes a single moment of brilliance is what wins you a match. If Spain was nowhere to be found but Mata could still give a teammate a golden opportunity to score almost single-handedly (he starts the play, with a one-two with Torres, makes the run, brings all the defenders to himself and pass to Pedro who was totally unmarked), you really can't say he doesn't make an impact. There are few players in the world who could have done that.

Not to say I disagree with everything you said, I just think you are unfair showcasing Spain's game. He didn't play badly by any means. If anything, I thought he was one of the standouts.

I do agree on this. Mata may not be Messi or Ronaldo like .... The proof of the pudding is in the eating and he delivered brilliantly last season. We can be a powerhouse with Mata in the team. I think this whole point is being polarized beyond reason.

If Mata ever gets 'replaced' by someone else to 'better' the team, it will happen automatically - step by step.

No need to fuss. Also: having one star in a team isn't a sure way to succes. It can be your downfall as well.

[Dion 2,476]

you ended up being harsh on mata lol.

But what i understand from your post is that the top clubs in the world have better star players when on form

Bayern - Ribery

Dortmund - Lewandoski

Real madrid - Ronaldo

Barcelona - Messi

Juventus - Pirlo

So in order to dominate europe as one of the worlds best teams, we need that star player on those people's level to score goals and wow the world. And we all hope hazard would be that man, if he starts adding goals to his game.

Bar Madrid and Barcelona, I don't envy anyone's star players. Not even Ribery or Pirlo.

[Barbara 15,149]

you ended up being harsh on mata lol.

But what i understand from your post is that the top clubs in the world have better star players when on form

Bayern - Ribery

Dortmund - Lewandoski

Real madrid - Ronaldo

Barcelona - Messi

Juventus - Pirlo

So in order to dominate europe as one of the worlds best teams, we need that star player on those people's level to score goals and wow the world. And we all hope hazard would be that man, if he starts adding goals to his game.

I didn't think of Dortmund because Dortmund is a competitive team like us now, not a powerhouse in football. I forgot to add Juve though.

Bayern is much more a collective team than one-guy team imo. They have many guys that make them work like a machine. Ribery and Schweinsteiger might be the most noticeable ones. Both of which I rate higher than Mata... (and now I crossed the line )

I may have been harsh on him (didn't plan to)... I don't want him to go, I think he's going to be very important to us. I just think we need someone better to be our star... we may have that on Hazard this season already. Let's not forget for many Hazard was our best player last season... it isn't about how flashy Eden is. It's about how he will step up and solve matches for us when we are under pressure. It's about him standing up in matches that were important to us last season and Mata was nowhere to be found...

[Dion 2,476]

I do agree on this. Mata may not be Messi or Ronaldo like .... The proof of the pudding is in the eating and he delivered brilliantly last season. We can be a powerhouse with Mata in the team. I think this whole point is being polarized beyond reason.

If Mata ever gets 'replaced' by someone else to 'better' the team, it will happen automatically - step by step.

No need to fuss. Also: having one star in a team isn't a sure way to succes. It can be your downfall as well.

Yep, that's the point. If your team is losing by three goals and being completely dominated, it's really hard to do anything by yourself, still, Mata created the chance that would put Spain back on the game. Had Pedro equalized, Spain would probably get a confidence boost to fight Brazil back. He's not at fault when his whole team is playing badly. Not even Messi can dribble past a whole team and score in every game. And Mata is awesome, but he is no Messi.

[The Skipper 20,593]

edit: @The Skipper, I'm not embarrassed at all. I just think it doesn't compare to what the big guns in football have... It's hard to try to make a point about perception. I think he's great... just not as great as most Chelsea fans think he is. I'm not dismissing the guy. And I guess we are quite the opposite of spoiled. We are in routes to become spoiled, but we aren't spoiled. Not when we look back to last season and see what happened...

It seems to be the Chelsea fans that underrate him more than anything. Opposition fans rate him very, very highly.

Like Dion said, bar Barcelona (Messi) and Real (Ronaldo), I don't envy anyone else's star players at all. Mata is just as good as anyone out there when at his best, if not even better than most.

Also, I don't see why a team can't have more than one star player. Don't see what's wrong with considering both Hazard and Mata as our star players.

[Dion 2,476]

I didn't think of Dortmund because Dortmund is a competitive team like us now, not a powerhouse in football. I forgot to add Juve though.

Bayern is much more a collective team than one-guy team imo. They have many guys that make them work like a machine. Ribery and Schweinsteiger might be the most noticeable ones. Both of which I rate higher than Mata... (and now I crossed the line )

I may have been harsh on him (didn't plan to)... I don't want him to go, I think he's going to be very important to us. I just think we need someone better to be our star... we may have that on Hazard this season already. Let's not forget for many Hazard was our best player last season... it isn't about how flashy Eden is. It's about how he will step up and solve matches for us when we are under pressure. It's about him standing up in matches that were important to us last season and Mata was nowhere to be found...

Or maybe we don't need a single star. We could be like Dortmund and Bayern, teams where it is really difficult to point THE star of the team. I wouldn't know who to point as the star of Dortmund team between Götze (when they had him), Reus, Lewandowski or even Gundogan. It's hard for Bayern too - Ribery, Bastian, Muller and Robben were all key to their success last season. What's the problem about having both Mata and Hazard as our key players? Or Mata, Hazard, Oscar, KDB? The more the better.

[Stingray 9,441]

Exactly. Btw recent research into motivation (Deci and Ryan- on selfdetermination) has indicated that the global team performance drops when you single out - explicitly or implicitly - someone as a 'star'. I quite oppose that very idea actually.

I also believe that part of Mou's succes is exactly this! A hardcore refusal to treat anyone like a star - only focus on the group performance.

Well - food for a future article. I promise.

[Chelsea? 892]

That's exactly how I feel, but rarely say it myself so I don't sound ungrateful or harsh...

But imo the truth is when Mata came in we were the team parking the bus against strong opposition because our midfield lacked any creativity, power and brilliance. So of course he shined, after all he is quality.

I still believe he is overrated and to say what you said in other words, he isn't big enough to be THE player in a team like Chelsea plans to become. I'm not sure he has much more to grow - to be honest - so his ceiling is probably not much higher than where he is now, while Hazard and Oscar seem to have miles to grow. Out of the three, he's the less brilliant one, but the other two are too young and still have to grow and mature a lot, and let's not forget continue to adapt to EPL.

And the fact that Mourinho seems to hint that he will move him from his undoubtedly best position, shows he might think the same because if he believed Mata was the best player in the team, he wouldn't move him to a position that isn't his favorite (not because of personal preferences, but because of results). I don't expect any less as Mourinho understand football better than any of us. If some of us can see this, Mourinho definitely sees this and more. I have no doubt as the young guns gain confidence, Mata will lose space in te team. It's the obvious thing to happen - unless the young guys like Hazard and Oscar and then Kevin don't progress...

1 Arsenal

2 Aston Villa

3 Cardiff City

4 Chelsea

5 Cystal Palace

Evrton

Flulam

Hull City

Liverpool

Manchester City

Manchester United

12 Newcastle United

13 Norwich City

14 Southampton

15 Stoke City

Sunderland

17 Swansea City

18 Tottenham Hotspur

West Bromwich

Albion

20 West Ham United

What do all theses teams have in common? If Mata went there, he'd be their most CREATIVE midfielder. Can you honestly find any team apart from Barca that have a more creative midfielder than Mata? It'd be hard to name 3 teams.

You're confusing best midfielder and creative midfielder when it comes to Mata. Juan will not be your best player but he can be your most creative one. Look at real Madrid, ozil is not their best player but he's curtainly their most creative. If Mata went there and is given his chance, he'd most definitely become their moat creative player.

[Dion 2,476]

And I even forgot the always-forgotten goalkeepers. Weidenfeller and Neuer were also gigantic.

[Barbara 15,149]

It seems to be the Chelsea fans that underrate him more than anything. Opposition fans rate him very, very highly.

Like Dion said, bar Barcelona (Messi) and Real (Ronaldo), I don't envy anyone else's star players at all. Mata is just as good as anyone out there when at his best, if not even better than most.

Also, I don't see why a team can't have more than one star player. Don't see what's wrong with considering both Hazard and Mata as our star players.

Or maybe we don't need a single star. We could be like Dortmund and Bayern, teams where it is really difficult to point THE star of the team. I wouldn't know who to point as the star of Dortmund team between Götze (when they had him), Reus, Lewandowski or even Gundogan. It's hard for Bayern too - Ribery, Bastian, Muller and Robben were all key to their success last season. What's the problem about having both Mata and Hazard as our key players? Or Mata, Hazard, Oscar, KDB? The more the better.

I agree with both of you as having more than one. We should have more than one. We will have more than one. He was the one the past couple of years... not the only one because I can't look back to the CL title without thinking Cech was maybe the most important player - as important as Didier actually.

Well, so let's hope I underrate the guy, others underrate Hazard (I don't see Oscar or Kevin really being stars this season already) and they both come with out-of-this-world football. I still think we can do better than we did with Mata the last couple of seasons, and that will probably come true with Hazard this season.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Bar Madrid and Barcelona, I don't envy anyone's star players. Not even Ribery or Pirlo.

Yea i dont envy ribery because we have hazard, and i dont envy pirlo because he's too old. But you cant deny that all those players will come before anyone in chelsea in the world best list for the last two seasons (bar pirlo last season).

[Chelsea? 892]

Yea i dont envy ribery because we have hazard, and i dont envy pirlo because he's too old. But you cant deny that all those players will come before anyone in chelsea in the world best list for the last two seasons (bar pirlo last season).

Ribery vs Mata wouldn't be that obvious a choice.

[Jase 43,479]

You just further prove my point with this post. In a team there had huge midfield deficiencies and then two adapting players, Mata rose above all, but really, his ceiling isn't this high thing you seem to imagine. Nobody here - as far as I can say - thinks he's done in his growth,but just like every other 25yo player that there isn't that much left to improve. He will improve in things like the ones you mentioned, of course he will, every player working under Mourinho does, otherwise they visit the bench.

I don't think I imply that his ceiling will be very or extremely high but rather refuting others' argument that it's not as bad as they are making it out to be. Some already seem to suggest that his last season form was the best and he won't get any better. Improving his weaknesses is one thing but in regards to his growth and development, there is certainly still 1-2 notch he can step up and be even better. And about his weaknesses, if he can work his work around and get rid of it, then he can certainly get much better as a player because a weakness(es) is what sometimes hold a person (generally) back from achieving greater things.

But there's a reason players the same age as him had chances in Spain NT where he continues to be a reserve. And when VDB tried to use him in the starting XI against Brazil, he was one of the most useless players in the match... He did basically nothing for Spain and the team improved when Navas got in.

Think some had this argument before. Mata is never suited to play regularly for Spain, not when their game is still based around a short passing style and Mata's plays a more direct one. As for the match against Brazil, it's the same when he played with us at times. He won't be as effective as he can be if the fellas behind are useless and can't even do anything right to keep the ball and allow the attacking players to do damage. As for the Navas thing, not sure if they can really be compared when both are two completely different players and play in different manner. Furthermore when Navas came on, Brazil were already 3-0 up then and was in the process of taking their foot off the pedal. Only normal if suddenly Spain had better of the game and improved since then.

Which comes back to the point that against big teams with good defenses he tends to disappear because while being a hard worker, and consistent in his play, he isn't what I would call brilliant. Great yes, but not brilliant and that's my point since the beginning. Chelsea fans - on their majority - for the lack of a star in the midfield - made Mata seem much bigger than he really is.

Made him bigger than he is? No. What he did for us in the last 2 seasons was great and he deserves all the praise that has gone his way. If anything, it's social media these days that seem to make people overhype/overrate him with Twitter, Facebook, forums etc.

In teams with good midfielders he would never be THE player. Just the next great guy contributing to it. So according to your own post he needs better teammates to reach a certain level, whereas brilliant players are the ones that reverse a negative situation, by owing a zone in the pitch (and in rare cases even the whole team) and making a difference. So yeah.

If we are going to talk about midfielders here, we should be breaking down to the type of midfielders here since we can't generalize every player given the different positions. Mata is an advanced playmaker or an attacking midfielder and in the past 2 seasons, especially the last, he has excelled brilliantly in that role and owned that zone. It's tough to find anyone that did better than Mata in that advanced playmaker/attacking midfielder role. He's one of the best players, if the not best, in that role right now and can only get better.

And no, I did not say Mata needs better teammates to reach certain level. My point was if we are to keep possession better, dominate the game more and have a stronger midfield in the DM/CM area, then Mata would be able to shine even more and cause more damage working with the likes of Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, De Bruyne. Last season, we couldn't even hold onto the ball long enough to save our lives but yet when we do get them and Mata is in control of them, he still managed to cause damage to the opposition. The circumstances in recent times where our first priority is to defend when we lose the ball and can't keep possession restricted our attacking players' ability to do maximum damage. If we can be aggressive, physical and dominate the ball the more often like we used to do it 3-4 seasons, then the creative players upfront, not just Mata, can express themselves and cause more chaos to the opposition.

Edited July 18, 2013 by BluesMaster

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Ribery vs Mata wouldn't be that obvious a choice.

Nope, ribery was bayerns best player and is in contention for ballon d or this season behind messi and ronaldo

I didn't think of Dortmund because Dortmund is a competitive team like us now, not a powerhouse in football. I forgot to add Juve though.

Bayern is much more a collective team than one-guy team imo. They have many guys that make them work like a machine. Ribery and Schweinsteiger might be the most noticeable ones. Both of which I rate higher than Mata... (and now I crossed the line )

I may have been harsh on him (didn't plan to)... I don't want him to go, I think he's going to be very important to us. I just think we need someone better to be our star... we may have that on Hazard this season already. Let's not forget for many Hazard was our best player last season... it isn't about how flashy Eden is. It's about how he will step up and solve matches for us when we are under pressure. It's about him standing up in matches that were important to us last season and Mata was nowhere to be found...

Mata doesnt disappear in big games like you say. But he doesnt like physical games or matches where opposition presses us, But when the opposition relaxes, mata has more space and automatically becomes our best player.

Thats why mourinho can help him develop his strength and workrate to make him even better, so that against high pressurizing teams like barcelona, brazil, juventus and mancity he could evade a yaya toure tackle, be strong enough on the ball without loosing it and still give that final pass we know he does well.

[Barbara 15,149]

@,

amazing post, mate

I will go against my own rules and will surprise you in the next MOTM bs thread next month.

Your posts are always a pleasure to read, Jay. I agree with a lot of things you said and of course (based in my own posts in the matter) disagree about some. But the way you answer those kind of posts is always amazing to read. Many great insights instead of theories that really aren't that practical in football.

[Jase 43,479]

@,

amazing post, mate

I will go against my own rules and will surprise you in the next MOTM bs thread next month.

Your posts are always a pleasure to read, Jay. I agree with a lot of things you said and of course (based in my own posts in the matter) disagree about some. But the way you answer those kind of posts is always amazing to read. Many great insights instead of theories that really aren't that practical in football.

So much praise in one post. Don't often get that.

Cheers nonetheless for the compliment.

[Barbara 15,149]

So much praise in one post. Don't often get that.

Cheers nonetheless for the compliment.

people aren't fair

And I like to have opinions refuted or confirmed with facts instead of theories. So that's why I appreciate that kind of post so much. But of course, everyone in the convo contributed as well, but I like the way you put it. I've seen you do the same in so many threads. Always respectful, always objective.

You even deserve a kitty in your twitter after that it's been a while after all