Mis-firing Torres

[magicrico 175]

It's not like we've had a certain style of play all these years under Abramovich though. Every ('permanent') manager came with their own style.

Let me add that I'm not saying Torres' poor form is because of the way we play. That's all on him. But playing in the way which brings the best out of him, would of course help him a lot.

I just disagree with the last part. He has had chances, failed. Touch,Finish and Pace are all things he is lacking. Nothing to do with the way we play. I know you said poor form is down to him. If he had a touch, pace and a finish we would be talking about how good Torres is. Nothing to do with our style, or any other excuse.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Lampard as a DM....that's a bold move.

I still like Mikel and Josh.

You can see it at the end of today's game when both enter, there was more precise passing, and more hard tackles done.

I prefer Lamps + Mikel. And if we get Pastore, i can see that being the case

Lampard on playing there -

I have played there for England fairly regularly but I do like to get forward and this won’t be a role that will stop me getting into the box. As long as I’m never told not to stray beyond the half way line, I’ll be happy. I’ve never been that kind of player anyway. Some people can play there but I don’t think so.

[Guest justin_3d]

I prefer Lamps + Mikel. And if we get Pastore, i can see that being the case

Wait a sec, so wasn't the whole last season people saying Lampard ain't a creative midfield and all this stuff?

With Josh i at least see him as a Pirlo/Alonso type of player.

Lampard is a finisher.

I think for Torres game, Mikel and Josh would benefit more then Lampard in the team.

Sorry but I also see Lampard as a problem for Torres, which would be solved if Pastore gets here.

[DYC. 7,542]

I just disagree with the last part. He has had chances, failed. Touch,Finish and Pace are all things he is lacking. Nothing to do with the way we play. I know you said poor form is down to him. If he had a touch, pace and a finish we would be talking about how good Torres is. Nothing to do with our style, or any other excuse.

But what is 'our' style? The way we played under Mourinho, under Scolari or the way we played under Ancelotti?

And his poor form is down to him, but what's wrong with playing in a way which suits the player who was bought for 50 mil best?

And there's nothing he can do about losing pace btw, nobody wants to lose pace but it happens.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Wait a sec, so wasn't the whole last season people saying Lampard ain't a creative midfield and all this stuff?

With Josh i at least see him as a Pirlo/Alonso type of player.

Lampard is a finisher.

I think for Torres game, Mikel and Josh would benefit more then Lampard in the team.

Sorry but I also see Lampard as a problem for Torres, which would be solved if Pastore gets here.

Josh will take over from Frank eventually, but imo that is still not now.

And Lampard not creative? the same player that had 17 assists the season before last in the league alone?

[Guest justin_3d]

Josh will take over from Frank eventually, but imo that is still not now.

And Lampard not creative? the same player that had 17 assists the season before last in the league alone?

I don't know, but i feel like Lampard is also a hinder for Torres.

It is i rather see more creative players like Mikel and Josh to give you a solid defensive mid with good passing vision, with your line of 3 made of pacey creative trio of Yossi, Pastore and Kakuta.

I am more then sure Kakuta and Josh can start in the team next season if there is a line up like that. A mix of youth and experience players.

Have to take a risk, something Carlo was afraid to do last year. Let's hope AVB can do that. Cause if it's something like that, then we don't need to overhaul as he says.

[dodojojo 510]

I have played there for England fairly regularly but I do like to get forward and this won’t be a role that will stop me getting into the box. As long as I’m never told not to stray beyond the half way line, I’ll be happy. I’ve never been that kind of player anyway. Some people can play there but I don’t think so.

Ah, doesn't that mean he's not really a good candidate for holding or defensive midfielder?

The point of that player is to hold down the fort while the attacking MF goes forward. If the DM gets too far forward too often, you're open to counter attacks. It's a thankless role but someone has to do it.

[Guest justin_3d]

Ah, doesn't that mean he's not really a good candidate for holding or defensive midfielder?

The point of that player is to hold down the fort while the attacking MF goes forward. If the DM gets too far forward too often, you're open to counter attacks. It's a thankless role but someone has to do it.

It is why Mikel and Josh are suited better for this role, because they have a long range vision.

Lampard is really more of a finisher for me.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Lampard cannot be benched though

Lol, we will see what AVB does i guess.

[Guest justin_3d]

And that is the problem.

People are asking for a new system for Torres, while trying to keep the old players from the old system....

[manpe 10,857]

And that is the problem.

People are asking for a new system for Torres, while trying to keep the old players from the old system....

AVB already said he won't be building the team around one player, and I hope he won't. I hope the team comes first and if that means benching Torres, then so be it... The system must be a working and a winning one, I see no point in forcing something to benefit one player, but maybe not the team in general. A world-class player like Torres should be able to work in and adapt to different formations and different styles, if he can't do that, then maybe he isn't as class as people thought he was. Liverpool never looked like winning anything, even when Torres was on fire for them. For me team comes first, individuals come second... it's a pity that AVB will probably be forced to play Torres even when he sucks, because of the money spent on him and the marketing they get thanks to him.. so for the team's sake, I hope he turns out useful at least.

[bombayblue™ 55]

Lampard as a DM....that's a bold move.

I still like Mikel and Josh.

You can see it at the end of today's game when both enter, there was more precise passing, and more hard tackles done.

Lampard as a DM is bold but Josh over Ramires isn't?

The 2 infront of the defensive 4 aren't necessarily DM's. It is how the team is set out. If it is set out to keep a clean sheet a la Mancini, then yes both are DMs what the people down South America fondly call double pivot, while if you set them out to keep possession and exploit the channels, then its more like the middle 2 of a flat 4-4-2 a la Fergie.

[magicrico 175]

But what is 'our' style? The way we played under Mourinho, under Scolari or the way we played under Ancelotti?

And his poor form is down to him, but what's wrong with playing in a way which suits the player who was bought for 50 mil best?

And there's nothing he can do about losing pace btw, nobody wants to lose pace but it happens.

Our Style is attacking 4-3-3. Either way it doesn't matter what our style is. It's on him. Everybody loses pace but not at 27. When he notched against WH in the prem last year I can remember the Commentator saying he all of sudden looks as if hes found an extra 5 yards. He's lazy. Proven yesterday when that ball came across. A tap in. He couldn't be fucked to sprint to claim a goal. The crowd and commentators thought he should have scored..... An out of form striker is a striker not producing goals or anything for his team. Torres is worse than that. What about his touch, his passing, his ability to take people on?

I think if we play in a way that apparently suits him (i still don't believe we need to change anything) then the rest of the team will suffer. I mean you give me a line up which will suit Torres. Cause honestly, playing with 2 wingers and frank/yossi up his ass doesn't work. It's him, I think anything other excuse is bull still.

[DYC. 7,542]

Our Style is attacking 4-3-3. Either way it doesn't matter what our style is. It's on him. Everybody loses pace but not at 27. When he notched against WH in the prem last year I can remember the Commentator saying he all of sudden looks as if hes found an extra 5 yards. He's lazy. Proven yesterday when that ball came across. A tap in. He couldn't be fucked to sprint to claim a goal. The crowd and commentators thought he should have scored..... An out of form striker is a striker not producing goals or anything for his team. Torres is worse than that. What about his touch, his passing, his ability to take people on?

I think if we play in a way that apparently suits him (i still don't believe we need to change anything) then the rest of the team will suffer. I mean you give me a line up which will suit Torres. Cause honestly, playing with 2 wingers and frank/yossi up his ass doesn't work. It's him, I think anything other excuse is bull still.

You keep saying excuses.. I hope you're not implying I'm coming up with excuses as that's not true. I'll say it again, his poor form is up to him. But the fact that the we play in a way, slow build-up (sometimes too slow which brings us into trouble), which doesn't suit him doesn't help. Torres was bought to be our new main goal scorer and he cost a lot of money so you better do what you can let him shine for those two reasons (It's like Stoke buying Zidane and expecting him to shine in the their long ball style of play). Just like we've played in a way which suits Drogba best all these years.

A line-up which suits Torres? Not much needs to be changed but it's obvious we need new wingers and a creative player in midfield. Maybe something like this:

Cech

Ivanovic Luiz/Alex Terry Cole

Lampard Mikel

Pastore(?)

A. Johnson(?) Torres Mata(?)

But it's not even about line-ups though, it's about the mind-set. Look to go forward and attack whenever you have the ball and look to play Torres on early and quickly (that way there's actually space for him to run into). Wingers providing width so Torres can run into the spaces left between the fullbacks and the centrebacks and others also looking to make runs behind the opposition defence. Obviously you won't always have the chance to do so but the players should be looking for it.

But I think it's best we stop here as I don't think we're going anywhere with this discussion .

[magicrico 175]

You keep saying excuses.. I hope you're not implying I'm coming up with excuses as that's not true. I'll say it again, his poor form is up to him. But the fact that the we play in a way, slow build-up (sometimes too slow which brings us into trouble), which doesn't suit him doesn't help. Torres was bought to be our new main goal scorer and he cost a lot of money so you better do what you can let him shine for those two reasons (It's like Stoke buying Zidane and expecting him to shine in the their long ball style of play). Just like we've played in a way which suits Drogba best all these years.

A line-up which suits Torres? Not much needs to be changed but it's obvious we need new wingers and a creative player in midfield. Maybe something like this:

Cech

Ivanovic Luiz/Alex Terry Cole

Lampard Mikel

Pastore(?)

A. Johnson(?) Torres Mata(?)

But it's not even about line-ups though, it's about the mind-set. Look to go forward and attack whenever you have the ball and look to play Torres on early and quickly (that way there's actually space for him to run into). Wingers providing width so Torres can run into the spaces left between the fullbacks and the centrebacks and others also looking to make runs behind the opposition defence. Obviously you won't always have the chance to do so but the players should be looking for it.

But I think it's best we stop here as I don't think we're going anywhere with this discussion .

I hear what you are saying, but whats the difference in that front 4 to yesterday?

Yossi

Kalou Torres Malouda

or

Yossi

Sturridge Torres Malouda

There isn't any, theres width there. I see your point, but I personally think touch,pace,passing and taking people on or dropping deep is all on him. Nothing to do with the team. I hear you though, we will stop hear and I guess all pray something clicks with him

[Blue Armour 4,168]

Glad to see that many people realize that Torres' form has nothing to do with the rest of the team...and it doesn't really have to do with his confidence either

Pace has a lot to do with most of the goals he has scored in the past...For some reason he doesn't seem to be making to be making those energetic runs as pften he should..

Whether this has to do with team's patient build-up play (rather than the fast direct route), I don't know (he did do well for Spain during the Euro when they won), but he can certainly do better so as to involve himself in more goal-scoring opportunities....

If AVB's plan works, the team will function like a well-oiled machine once again, and Torres will simply fall into place..

[Kieran. 6,317]

I think he'll be sold after 3 years for 20 million, scoring 30 goals for Chelsea.

Hope he scores 30 this year though.

[dodojojo 510]

Glad to see that many people realize that Torres' form has nothing to do with the rest of the team...and it doesn't really have to do with his confidence either

Pace has a lot to do with most of the goals he has scored in the past...For some reason he doesn't seem to be making to be making those energetic runs as pften he should..

Whether this has to do with team's patient build-up play (rather than the fast direct route), I don't know (he did do well for Spain during the Euro when they won), but he can certainly do better so as to involve himself in more goal-scoring opportunities....

If AVB's plan works, the team will function like a well-oiled machine once again, and Torres will simply fall into place..

I agree with your points. As much as I would love the Liverpool-prolific Torres back, it won't happen unless Chelsea plays exactly that system. So it won't happen. But that doesn't mean he can't be a valuable contributor to the team. He'll have to keep plugging away. And for all those that keep calling him lazy--he's always had coaches and teammates say he's a good professional and hard worker. Just because some have this image of him as some pretty boy striker, it doesn't mean he doesn't work hard. Check out the recent article in the Guardian (?) where the author actually said Torres is well liked at the club (so much for the scousers who thinks Torres is hated by his new teammates) because he's humble and works hard.

About Spain, we covered that earlier in the thread. Aragones played with only one holding/defensive MF and his team played a much more dynamic version of tika taka. Still tika taka but at least it was at a faster tempo which made a not so ideal situation tolerable for Torres. Del Bosque's version is much more ponderous. Both effective of course but the 2008 team/system was more fun to watch.