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Special Juan

7. N'Golo Kante

Started by Special Juan,

2,051 posts in this topic
6 hours ago, killer1257 said:

If Kante does not get injured, we have a very high chance of winning the title

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That’s highly optimistic. I think the FA will give Liverpool at least one title more but if we hold onto Lamprd they might at least allow us to get one some time just to have an English manager lift the Pl for once which they could exploit for a other brand story. 
but back on topic. Kante has been fine whenever fit enough but I don’t hunk he is as good as back in 2017 and probably never will be again. Summer 2021 should be the time we move him on. 

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12 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

In principle yes but not for the peanuts we were offered. 

I have to disagree.

Dont know how much its impacted by FIFA, but suddenly people think that after/nearing 30 a player becomes useless. 

Kante is still one of the best B2B CMs in the world and will be in top 10-15 no. 6s in the world. Just watch the newcastle game again, and how quickly he sniffs out the attack. its just beautiful. Replace him with Jorginho and we would get our asses screwed. 

 

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2 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

I have to disagree.

Dont know how much its impacted by FIFA, but suddenly people think that after/nearing 30 a player becomes useless. 

Kante is still one of the best B2B CMs in the world and will be in top 10-15 no. 6s in the world. Just watch the newcastle game again, and how quickly he sniffs out the attack. its just beautiful. Replace him with Jorginho and we would get our asses screwed. 

 

It's not really anything to do with FIFA. Kante was really poor last year under any metric, apart from Tottenham away all our best performances came without him in the team and not only that, all our other midfielders looked a better fit for Lampard's system, even Barkley. Bringing Kante back in the fold straight away when he recovered from an injury buggered up our momentum three times.

I was genuinely concerned he was going down the Essien route and that his injury's were destroying him and I was even more concerned by Frank's insistence that he played when fit no matter what, it was resembling the LVG at United situation with Rooney where he seemingly had to play no matter what because of name and reputation regardless of cost to results.

Thankfully all that is a distant memory and Lampard has managed to get Kante firmly back on form and well and truly find him a spot on this team, but I'm not having the rewriting of history with him last season, all the concerns were very much valid.

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38 minutes ago, Tomo said:

It's not really anything to do with FIFA. Kante was really poor last year under any metric, apart from Tottenham away all our best performances came without him in the team and not only that, all our other midfielders looked a better fit for Lampard's system, even Barkley. Bringing Kante back in the fold straight away when he recovered from an injury buggered up our momentum three times.

I was genuinely concerned he was going down the Essien route and that his injury's were destroying him and I was even more concerned by Frank's insistence that he played when fit no matter what, it was resembling the LVG at United situation with Rooney where he seemingly had to play no matter what because of name and reputation regardless of cost to results.

Thankfully all that is a distant memory and Lampard has managed to get Kante firmly back on form and well and truly find him a spot on this team, but I'm not having the rewriting of history with him last season, all the concerns were very much valid.

We have romanticized the Mount-Jorginho-Kovacic trio so much. I dont think they were anywhere near as potent as people make it out to be. 

Kante is a world class player. just because he had a single injury riddled season, you cant be looking to cut your losses with him. If the club had ACTUALLY done that, i would have seriously questioned their business acumen. He was played out of position, we all know Kante's best position is deep, preferably in a pivot. Just because he had a good spell under Sarri as the more advanced, we tried to play him there AGAIN. The issue still was not Kante, it was Jorginho and Alonso and Kepa. 

Again, reiterating this, you can NOT be looking to sell a world class player after just one season of injuries and being played out of position. Anyone wanting that was WAY off. 

It should not be a surprise that Kante is bossing the mid right now. It would not be a surprise if he kept bossing it for the next 2-3 years Atleast. 

"Fans" can keep shouting that, "we could have got 60m for him", but thats just stupid. Chemistry is not built in a day.

The point is not about rewriting history. I did not claim he was world class LAST season, just that he is still a world class player (period). You build a team around these world class players like Kante or world class talents like Kai, you dont sell them after one season of average showings or injuries.

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1 hour ago, Tomo said:

It's not really anything to do with FIFA. Kante was really poor last year under any metric, apart from Tottenham away all our best performances came without him in the team and not only that, all our other midfielders looked a better fit for Lampard's system, even Barkley. Bringing Kante back in the fold straight away when he recovered from an injury buggered up our momentum three times.

The Jorginho-Kovacic midfield gets bypassed way too easily. It's no surprise he wanted to have Kanté back as soon as possible. That midfield partnership along with Kepa was the main reason we conceded so many goals. The team had no idea how to play off the ball as soon as teams got through our press(again thanks to the huge gaps in midfield).

I don't see how Kante being integrated back into the team after returning from injury buggered up our momentum. If anything, we were desperate to have him back in the starting line-up. As to wether he is less fit to play in Frank's system than the other midfielders. He has proven that he could play anywhere. He was made to play higher under Sarri and Lamps because his talents would be wasted playing deeper as he is now, but also to accommodate Jorginho who can only play the one position.

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35 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

We have romanticized the Mount-Jorginho-Kovacic trio so much. I dont think they were anywhere near as potent as people make it out to be. 

Kante is a world class player. just because he had a single injury riddled season, you cant be looking to cut your losses with him. If the club had ACTUALLY done that, i would have seriously questioned their business acumen. He was played out of position, we all know Kante's best position is deep, preferably in a pivot. Just because he had a good spell under Sarri as the more advanced, we tried to play him there AGAIN. The issue still was not Kante, it was Jorginho and Alonso and Kepa. 

Again, reiterating this, you can NOT be looking to sell a world class player after just one season of injuries and being played out of position. Anyone wanting that was WAY off. 

It should not be a surprise that Kante is bossing the mid right now. It would not be a surprise if he kept bossing it for the next 2-3 years Atleast. 

"Fans" can keep shouting that, "we could have got 60m for him", but thats just stupid. Chemistry is not built in a day.

The point is not about rewriting history. I did not claim he was world class LAST season, just that he is still a world class player (period). You build a team around these world class players like Kante or world class talents like Kai, you dont sell them after one season of average showings or injuries.

Actually on the contrary, that is how a lot of dominant teams are built. Liverpool in the 70s/80s and Fergie at United sustained their dominance by evolving and demoting/selling players at the right time (for example Fergie selling RVN was apparently the final proof he lost the plot, reality worked out quite differently). Building the team around Kante last season when there were (a) concerns about his fitness, (b) we were performing better without him (how good the Jorgi/Kova/Mount trio was is debatable, that it was more effective than any combination that involved Kante last season wasn't) and (c) the worry of whether he may have been declining would have been criminal, imagine if he had an Essien style decline, what then? We'd have fallen into the exact same trap United did with Rooney (which in my opinion was just as big a factor to their decline as Fergie leaving, if not more so). 

Kudos to Frank for sussing out he wasn't in decline and working out a way to get him back to his best, but us fans who didn't have the same access to similar data and seeing previous examples of horrendous declines from players who relied on athletic attributes for full effectiveness (Torres, Essien, Ivanovic, Ash, all at similar ages to Kante currently apart from Torres who was even younger) were concerned and rightly so.

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18 minutes ago, Rapkun said:

The Jorginho-Kovacic midfield gets bypassed way too easily. It's no surprise he wanted to have Kanté back as soon as possible. That midfield partnership along with Kepa was the main reason we conceded so many goals. The team had no idea how to play off the ball as soon as teams got through our press(again thanks to the huge gaps in midfield).

I don't see how Kante being integrated back into the team after returning from injury buggered up our momentum. If anything, we were desperate to have him back in the starting line-up. As to wether he is less fit to play in Frank's system than the other midfielders. He has proven that he could play anywhere. He was made to play higher under Sarri and Lamps because his talents would be wasted playing deeper as he is now, but also to accommodate Jorginho who can only play the one position.

But even with Kante in we were hardly solid, at least with the Jorgi/Kova/Mount midfield we were fluid in attack/build up and creating chances/scoring goals which meant a lot of the time we got away with defensive handicaps.

And the three times it killed our momentum was in October/November time when we were on a good run playing great football, all off a sudden Kante was thrown back in and our play declined along with our results.

Then in January we had that convincing win against Burnley with the two 8's and the link up play between James/CHO on the right (people may say "only Burnley" but that very team went onto beat both our top four rivals in their next two games) which set up a clear blueprint on how to deal with teams who pack their defense and try to shithouse us, next game against Newcastle (the biggest shithousers in the league) we throw Kante back in, create jack all and get beat.

Then just before lockdown we produced our two most complete performances of the season with Gilmour dictating from deep and two of Mount, Ross and Kova higher up, do we try and build on that? No, Kante walses back in, Gilmour is back on the sidelines (then brought back in out of position) and we started playing some utterly boring football.

I don't want to keep going back to this because Kante looks back to his best now and I couldn't be happier, but on merit he should absolutely not have been an untouchable last season.

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37 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Actually on the contrary, that is how a lot of dominant teams are built. Liverpool in the 70s/80s and Fergie at United sustained their dominance by evolving and demoting/selling players at the right time (for example Fergie selling RVN was apparently the final proof he lost the plot, reality worked out quite differently). Building the team around Kante last season when there were (a) concerns about his fitness, (b) we were performing better without him (how good the Jorgi/Kova/Mount trio was is debatable, that it was more effective than any combination that involved Kante last season wasn't) and (c) the worry of whether he may have been declining would have been criminal, imagine if he had an Essien style decline, what then? We'd have fallen into the exact same trap United did with Rooney (which in my opinion was just as big a factor to their decline as Fergie leaving, if not more so). 

Kudos to Frank for sussing out he wasn't in decline and working out a way to get him back to his best, but us fans who didn't have the same access to similar data and seeing previous examples of horrendous declines from players who relied on athletic attributes for full effectiveness (Torres, Essien, Ivanovic, Ash, all at similar ages to Kante currently apart from Torres who was even younger) were concerned and rightly so.

I agree with some of your points mate.

But, Firstly, SAF was a god among men. He was a once in a lifetime manager. FL is not yet and may never be anywhere as good as him, and that is with all due respect. I love the man and the manager, but dont think he is THAT good. Also, RVN, beckham, Keane had become divas and a nuisance for the team. Kante is anything but that. Also, for every United based system, there is a messi with Barca, CR with RM, etc etc. There is no one blue-print for success. If FL was a BR type "systems manager", I would have understood, but that is not so. Hence, he needs his system to be adapted to the few world class players/potential players that we have who can help with his "Attacking" philosophy while keeping a balance. And Kante was always going to help with that.

I can probably understand people if they genuinely had a concern regarding a dip in his quality. But, even then, just a year into that "dip" asking our only one true world class player to be sold was OTT in my opinion. 

Lastly, Iva was 33 when he left us and at 32 he won the league and was one of the best RBs.

Ashley cole was 32 when he lifted the CL and was one of our best players in the campaign (napoli, barca)

Torres had become shit with Liverpool before we bought him, essien is to this date one of the saddest stories of a decline. We can keep measuring every player with Torres and Essien. 

Makelele was a boss at 34/35. 

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29 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I agree with some of your points mate.

But, Firstly, SAF was a god among men. He was a once in a lifetime manager. FL is not yet and may never be anywhere as good as him, and that is with all due respect. I love the man and the manager, but dont think he is THAT good. Also, RVN, beckham, Keane had become divas and a nuisance for the team. Kante is anything but that. Also, for every United based system, there is a messi with Barca, CR with RM, etc etc. There is no one blue-print for success. If FL was a BR type "systems manager", I would have understood, but that is not so. Hence, he needs his system to be adapted to the few world class players/potential players that we have who can help with his "Attacking" philosophy while keeping a balance. And Kante was always going to help with that.

I can probably understand people if they genuinely had a concern regarding a dip in his quality. But, even then, just a year into that "dip" asking our only one true world class player to be sold was OTT in my opinion. 

Lastly, Iva was 33 when he left us and at 32 he won the league and was one of the best RBs.

Ashley cole was 32 when he lifted the CL and was one of our best players in the campaign (napoli, barca)

Torres had become shit with Liverpool before we bought him, essien is to this date one of the saddest stories of a decline. We can keep measuring every player with Torres and Essien. 

Makelele was a boss at 34/35. 

I have to disagree with some of the timings of the player declines. Ash gave us the last horrah to help get us that CL but ultimately that was 6/7 games, his decline in week by week performance started after the double season while a lot of fans wanted Ivan replaced by Azpi pretty much from the first few games of Mou's return (the signs were there he wasn't quite what he was despite the title in 2015).

Torres was shit before we signed him but i brought him up because he declined due to injury's taking away his physical attributes which is what made him great which was the crux of my concern with Golo. For some reason people thought Torres was a technically gifted player which was a myth, it was his (underrated) strength and burst of pace from a standing/walking start that allowed him to become a top striker, when playing for Spain (where the tactics were more technical based than Rafa's Liverpool) he looked levels and levels below David Villa.

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