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DavidEU

Nemanja Matic

Started by DavidEU,

4,238 posts in this topic
7 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Matic and Mikel... both are different players, one is really an 8 and the other is a 6 in terms of positions. 

Mikel probably should have remained a non-DM in his career. He doesn't run a midfield like a top player from deep and never has consistently because the opposition often knows him too well and Mikel doesn't adapt to the pressures.

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On 3/14/2014 at 4:36 AM, Henrique said:

???

What are you talking about?

Well, it seems I'm alone here. Don't get me wrong here, but I do believe that Mikel years affected many people. I think Matic is a good player, but not as good as some people here make him look. I usually find here things like "Matic is having a godlike performance" after a decent match, now some people believe we are hopeless when he doesn't play, and if we win the title its "quite largely down to Matic", he is "Jesus"...

After reading those comments after he joined, I wont be surprised if he gets the Player of The Year, or if he manage to win the Fifa Ballo D'or at the end of the year.

My theory is that fans usually fell in love with new players that came to fit a weak link, and as a result they end up thinking those players are better than they really are, because the standards are low. Just take Juan Mata as an example. During his first season, 11/12, he was really inconsistent, as the rest of Villas Boas team, but many people thought he was really great. I remember '12 Fa Cup final, when Mata barely touched the ball, but bizarrely was named the man of the match...well, he arrived when the team was getting really old and lacked creativity, so its not difficult to know the reason why some people thought he was superb.

For many years we had Mikel as our DM, just remember that after some games, we had many people saying Romeu was the new Makelele. Matic had one GREAT game, and thats was against City, after that he never came close to reproduce the same kind of performance, but for now I will stay quite, time (results) will change some people's mind (including mine).

 

On 4/12/2014 at 5:32 PM, Henrique said:

Game after game Matic is proving to be the most overrated player ever. Today he was ineffective for the whole match (this is not his kind of game) but one nice pass that resulted in a goal was enough to people see him as man of the match and god-like midfielder.

To be fair with Matic, its not his fault. He is a good midfielder, no doubt the best option we have for that position, but he is just a normal player. To think we would be favorites to win the UCL if we had Matic is just insanity. Weeks ago I read that if we win the league, it was because of Matic (despite the fact that the serbian only had started only 6 games in that moment).

 

On 4/12/2014 at 8:23 PM, MrExcalibur100 said:

Henrique hates our best players. Even Hazard came in for similar treatment, just ignore him. Saying Matic is a one dimensional DM when he's probably the most multi-dimensional DM in football today alongside Busquets shows how utterly and completely clueless you are.

Matic in Benfica lead Europe's DM's in "Key passes" for two years and already has a bunch of key passes and even assists for us since he joined. It's a huge bonus for us that our holding midfielder is also a creator as well Anyone with eyes can see his deep-lying playmaking skills and passing range are superb.

But you love the attention don't you? That's why you always come up with this stuff.

 

Well, I remember when Matic joined. The amount of crazy things in this forum was huge. Matic was being voted MOTM game after game in "match" topic, and many people were saying if Matic was UCL eligible we would be favorites to win the tournament. I think that was the same period where people were saying Cahill was a world class defender. Matic has always been a limited DM and one dimensional player. There were many posts showing 6 minutes of his display against Arsenal (most of the time making short passes), or posts and analysis where he was pictured as perhaps the best midfielder in the world.

Perhaps that was the new player effect, and because he had an amazing performance in his debut, against City. Lets be honest, Matic never reproduced the same performance. Against United days ago he was pretty good, but the way he missed that goal speaks loud about his limitations. I will never understand why people evaluate some players after 2, 3 or 6 matches.

Matic is a good player, but in my opinion he lacks the dynamism of a modern DM. Perhaps he is the perfect DM if your team will play in a 4-2-3-1 and will adopt a more conservative approach, but he just lacks something when the team must score goals and his slow football make the team vulnerable to fast counter attacks.

At the moment even Mikel looks a better player, and in my opinion this team really need another DM. While Matic is still a useful player, he is not the kind of player that should be essential for a team. The fact he became almost essential for this side, only show how limited this squad really is.

I really get angry when I remember that almost 2 years I was saying those things about Matic while some people were saying I just wanted attention, because Matic was "the most multi-dimensional DM in football today" when he was not even close of being as good as past DM, as Makelele and Essien.

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3 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

 

 

Well, I remember when Matic joined. The amount of crazy things in this forum was huge. Matic was being voted MOTM game after game in "match" topic, and many people were saying if Matic was UCL eligible we would be favorites to win the tournament. I think that was the same period where people were saying Cahill was a world class defender. Matic has always been a limited DM and one dimensional player. There were many posts showing 6 minutes of his display against Arsenal (most of the time making short passes), or posts and analysis where he was pictured as perhaps the best midfielder in the world.

Perhaps that was the new player effect, and because he had an amazing performance in his debut, against City. Lets be honest, Matic never reproduced the same performance. Against United days ago he was pretty good, but the way he missed that goal speaks loud about his limitations. I will never understand why people evaluate some players after 2, 3 or 6 matches.

Matic is a good player, but in my opinion he lacks the dynamism of a modern DM. Perhaps he is the perfect DM if your team will play in a 4-2-3-1 and will adopt a more conservative approach, but he just lacks something when the team must score goals and his slow football make the team vulnerable to fast counter attacks.

At the moment even Mikel looks a better player, and in my opinion this team really need another DM. While Matic is still a useful player, he is not the kind of player that should be essential for a team. The fact he became almost essential for this side, only show how limited this squad really is.

I really get angry when I remember that almost 2 years I was saying those things about Matic while some people were saying I just wanted attention, because Matic was "the most multi-dimensional DM in football today" when he was not even close of being as good as past DM, as Makelele and Essien.

Are you discussing Matic or the forum perception of Matic? What does it have to do with him being considered one of the key players in our title winning season? One single great performance? Please go back and check his scores - he had several MOTM performances.

When you compare Makele with Matic you lose me - they couldn't be any more different. Even Mikel, who can still be quite different, at least sits back, while Matic roams. Makele was a great destroyer, but also one of the most technically limited player I've seen in my life and would not like him in the team. The game has moved on.

I honestly don't even see Matic as a DM. He's more like a DLP or CM which is what the modern game demands. Posts like this honestly surprise me because you complain about his characteristics as a player, while that is exactly what we bought! It's akin to buying Diego Costa and complaining why he is NOT scoring from headers.

I am waiting for you to manage to put Mikel and Dynamism in the same sentence... :P

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1 hour ago, Robguima said:

Are you discussing Matic or the forum perception of Matic? What does it have to do with him being considered one of the key players in our title winning season? One single great performance? Please go back and check his scores - he had several MOTM performances.

When you compare Makele with Matic you lose me - they couldn't be any more different. Even Mikel, who can still be quite different, at least sits back, while Matic roams. Makele was a great destroyer, but also one of the most technically limited player I've seen in my life and would not like him in the team. The game has moved on.

I honestly don't even see Matic as a DM. He's more like a DLP or CM which is what the modern game demands. Posts like this honestly surprise me because you complain about his characteristics as a player, while that is exactly what we bought! It's akin to buying Diego Costa and complaining why he is NOT scoring from headers.

I am waiting for you to manage to put Mikel and Dynamism in the same sentence... :P

 

1- Those posts are not from last season, but from like 2 months after he joined or 6 matches played. No one is discussing he being key player last season (the likes of Fabregas, Azpilicueta and Ivanovic were also key players last season).

 

2- Makelele and Matic are different players, but in my books thats a very weak argument, that doesn't make any sense. The fact two players are different, doesn't mean you can compare both in terms of quality. Its like saying you can't compare Neymar and Oscar because both are different players. 

3- I'm not discussing Matic as a CM, since he barely played as a CM for Chelsea, and as a Chelsea player he is beyond doubt a DM, but I really doubt he would be a good CM, unless for a South American team, where usually the CM are no more than a 2nd DM.

4- I'm discussing the perception that some fans had of this team in the best. Many players where overrated not only by some fans, but also by local press. Matic is beyond doubt a useful player, but far from a world class player. What is happening this season is a result of being way too happy with a squad that had the likes of Oscar, Azpilicueta, Matic, Cahill and Ivanovic in the starting line-up, if you ask me.

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1 hour ago, Henrique said:

 

1- Those posts are not from last season, but from like 2 months after he joined or 6 matches played. No one is discussing he being key player last season (the likes of Fabregas, Azpilicueta and Ivanovic were also key players last season).

 

2- Makelele and Matic are different players, but in my books thats a very weak argument, that doesn't make any sense. The fact two players are different, doesn't mean you can compare both in terms of quality. Its like saying you can't compare Neymar and Oscar because both are different players. 

3- I'm not discussing Matic as a CM, since he barely played as a CM for Chelsea, and as a Chelsea player he is beyond doubt a DM, but I really doubt he would be a good CM, unless for a South American team, where usually the CM are no more than a 2nd DM.

4- I'm discussing the perception that some fans had of this team in the best. Many players where overrated not only by some fans, but also by local press. Matic is beyond doubt a useful player, but far from a world class player. What is happening this season is a result of being way too happy with a squad that had the likes of Oscar, Azpilicueta, Matic, Cahill and Ivanovic in the starting line-up, if you ask me.

Why are you throwing Azpi name next to Iva, Cesc etc? He is great fullback on defensive side and certainly a quality one.

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1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

Why are you throwing Azpi name next to Iva, Cesc etc? He is great fullback on defensive side and certainly a quality one.

 

Mahrez disagrees.

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5 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

1- Those posts are not from last season, but from like 2 months after he joined or 6 matches played. No one is discussing he being key player last season (the likes of Fabregas, Azpilicueta and Ivanovic were also key players last season).

 

2- Makelele and Matic are different players, but in my books thats a very weak argument, that doesn't make any sense. The fact two players are different, doesn't mean you can compare both in terms of quality. Its like saying you can't compare Neymar and Oscar because both are different players. 

3- I'm not discussing Matic as a CM, since he barely played as a CM for Chelsea, and as a Chelsea player he is beyond doubt a DM, but I really doubt he would be a good CM, unless for a South American team, where usually the CM are no more than a 2nd DM.

4- I'm discussing the perception that some fans had of this team in the best. Many players where overrated not only by some fans, but also by local press. Matic is beyond doubt a useful player, but far from a world class player. What is happening this season is a result of being way too happy with a squad that had the likes of Oscar, Azpilicueta, Matic, Cahill and Ivanovic in the starting line-up, if you ask me.

1. Distinctly remember Matic and Luiz in midfield giving us the best record against the top sides ... ever? MOTM was a toss between him and Luiz... short memories around here.

2. Yes, you can compare players with different characteristics, but then you'd be comparing types not quality. Unless you value certain abilities, which would favor matic as what he does is quantifiable more valuable to sides than a pure defensive DM. Neymar can't play alone so he needs someone like Oscar next to him.

3. Disagree again here. That's just his label in the lineup. Sometimes he's the DM and sometimes he is a CM. He's definitely a CM when playing alongside Mikel for example. And more of a CM when next to Ramires. More a DM with Fabregas. Even Mikel isn't your typical DM type.

4. He played at a very high level since he joined us and was very consistent too. In my book he deserved every bit of praise he got; just as he deserves the criticism now along with most of the players.

 

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2 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

Mahrez disagrees.

In those 1-v-1 situation INSIDE the penalty box, it can always be tricky to defend against players like Mahrez. Maybe the question should be why no one else came to help him - Terry, Pedro?

And how does one mistake like that mean Azpi isn't good?

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1 hour ago, Jason said:

In those 1-v-1 situation INSIDE the penalty box, it can always be tricky to defend against players like Mahrez. Maybe the question should be why no one else came to help him - Terry, Pedro?

And how does one mistake like that mean Azpi isn't good?

Azpi is decent. Far from Ashley Cole quality.

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9 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

Mahrez disagrees.

Yeah because defender never makes mistakes. And Mahrez is in top shit form this season too.

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5 hours ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is decent. Far from Ashley Cole quality.

Such nonsense. I've seen Cole being ripped apart by the likes of Walcott, Lennon, Valencia etc. It happens to everyone. There's no such thing as a fullback who's never been embarrassed or hasn't gone through bad games or spells, even seasons. Azpilicueta is a fantastic defender. He wins the great majority of the battles he faces. His problem is on the ball (playing on his weaker foot doesn't help) and in offence.

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8 hours ago, DYC. said:

Such nonsense. I've seen Cole being ripped apart by the likes of Walcott, Lennon, Valencia etc. It happens to everyone. There's no such thing as a fullback who's never been embarrassed or hasn't gone through bad games or spells, even seasons. Azpilicueta is a fantastic defender. He wins the great majority of the battles he faces. His problem is on the ball (playing on his weaker foot doesn't help) and in offence.

Azpi is not even a LB mate. Cole was miles better than Azpi, specially in terms of what he offered going forward. Chelsea left side was usually the strongest in that aspect, and he always made up good links with the left attackers. Azpi is an average player, just like Cahill. Far from "fantastic", since for me a full back is such a complex role to be played in football. A full back that has problem when he has the ball, is not a "fantastic" full back in my books. Cole usually put Ronaldo in his pocket back in the days, while Azpi is the kind of guy that would win the majority of the battles he face, bust against  average sides.

I will say it again, but there is a big problem with this squad when you realize people saying players like Azpi are "fantastic".

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11 hours ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is not even a LB mate. Cole was miles better than Azpi, specially in terms of what he offered going forward. Chelsea left side was usually the strongest in that aspect, and he always made up good links with the left attackers. Azpi is an average player, just like Cahill. Far from "fantastic", since for me a full back is such a complex role to be played in football. A full back that has problem when he has the ball, is not a "fantastic" full back in my books. Cole usually put Ronaldo in his pocket back in the days, while Azpi is the kind of guy that would win the majority of the battles he face, bust against  average sides.

I will say it again, but there is a big problem with this squad when you realize people saying players like Azpi are "fantastic".

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

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To add up to Azpi discussion:

Azpi in defense is what Willian is in attack, if you ask me.

Problem is not Azpi, problem is second full-back. If you have defensive second full back, than it's shit, I agree. But, put Azpi on the right, where he can provide some attacking, and put on the left some more offensive full-back and there you go.

You don't need to have complete player in every position. You have Azpi - great in defense, only decent in attack on the right. Play some great in attack, only decent at the defense full-back on the left.

As for full-back that are great at attacking AND defending... Well, you can count them on fingers of one hand. It's hard to get one of those.

As for Matić, he is DMF for me. Not classic Makelele-type DMF, but surely a DMF, more than CMF.

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6 hours ago, DYC. said:

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

I don't think Cesar is as bad going forward as made out, obviously not Cole quality but I think it was more instrucions from Jose than lack of ability in his part.

The few times he ventured forward last season he made a positive impact, prime example Diego Costas winner at Anfield.

Also he has nearly netted twice in three games under Hiddink, which only strengthens my argument that he was shackled under Jose going forward.

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20 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I don't think Cesar is as bad going forward as made out, obviously not Cole quality but I think it was more instrucions from Jose than lack of ability in his part.

The few times he ventured forward last season he made a positive impact, prime example Diego Costas winner at Anfield.

Also he has nearly netted twice in three games under Hiddink, which only strengthens my argument that he was shackled under Jose going forward.

Never said he was terrible. But it's not good either. Moments yeah but consistently, no. If so, he'd be a no-brainer for Spain. But he isn't because of his ability going forward.

I think Azpilicueta also suffers in terms of rep because of his team mates. Cole played with Carvalho, prime Terry and prime Ivanovic/Ferreira. That helps. But then again, defensive fullbacks are out of style. More is demanded. The funny thing is a poor defender but strong attacker will receive far more praise than the opposite, which is silly but what can you do.

But to question Azpiliceita's ability to defend is something I just don't understand. Bar Lahm, I don't see a better defender and vast majority doesn't even compare. He's Chelsea's best defender by far, I'd trust him at CB.

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18 hours ago, DYC. said:

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

 

I'm not misreading things. Sometimes the noise in communication can be cause by the emissary. In my first post I said Azpi is not Cole quality, and you said something like "bullshit, Cole was embarrassed by the likes of Walcott, and Azpi is fantastic". Next time you should just avoid the noise.

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11 hours ago, DYC. said:

Never said he was terrible. But it's not good either. Moments yeah but consistently, no. If so, he'd be a no-brainer for Spain. But he isn't because of his ability going forward.

I think Azpilicueta also suffers in terms of rep because of his team mates. Cole played with Carvalho, prime Terry and prime Ivanovic/Ferreira. That helps. But then again, defensive fullbacks are out of style. More is demanded. The funny thing is a poor defender but strong attacker will receive far more praise than the opposite, which is silly but what can you do.

But to question Azpiliceita's ability to defend is something I just don't understand. Bar Lahm, I don't see a better defender and vast majority doesn't even compare. He's Chelsea's best defender by far, I'd trust him at CB.

Azpi is good defending, there is no doubt about it, and there is reason why he became a Jose favorite. He barely make mistakes or is caught out of position when everything is working, but again I don't see anything special about what he does. For me there is no such thing lile "all-round fullback", because full back is a position that requieres balance between defending and attacking, of course of full-backs strongest points are attacking, while others are defending, but a full-back tha can't defend, is very limited one, and same happens to the ones that can't attack.

Azpi is just not good enough with the ball on his feet. Its not uncommong to see he emabarrasing himself during the games, like passing the ball to the opponent or even not being able to dominate the ball. He is the typical one dimensional player that Jose favored since 2013.

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1 hour ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is good defending, there is no doubt about it, and there is reason why he became a Jose favorite. He barely make mistakes or is caught out of position when everything is working, but again I don't see anything special about what he does. For me there is no such thing lile "all-round fullback", because full back is a position that requieres balance between defending and attacking, of course of full-backs strongest points are attacking, while others are defending, but a full-back tha can't defend, is very limited one, and same happens to the ones that can't attack.

Azpi is just not good enough with the ball on his feet. Its not uncommong to see he emabarrasing himself during the games, like passing the ball to the opponent or even not being able to dominate the ball. He is the typical one dimensional player that Jose favored since 2013.

Yet you thrown a video of one of his defensive mistakes suggesting he was defensive liability. Make up your mind.

 

Point is if he was playing on right, he would be more comfortable on ball. Not Alaba, but still. And if we had a proper counter weight on other side in sense of a more offensive fb who has good skills and can cross instead of Ivanovic, that would be perfect. 

I will always prefer a fb who can defend than one who is a fraud at that. Attacking is just a plus. If you have a fb who can do both you are extremely lucky. 

But Azpi has other qualities, such as putting his body on the line and fighting till the end, so he certainly isnt the one who dissapointed this season, is average, or should be replaced like Cesc, Iva etc as you suggested.

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Azpi would play at a higher level on the right side imo. The time and tempo we lose when he shifts the ball to his right and passes back instead of breaking forward and doing something more dangerous with his favourite foot often breaks our momentum. He is one of our better crossers, but he doesn't get to display that often enough. Azpi and Baba would make us a lot more dangerous in attack, because Ivanovic is useless in that and the problem with Azpi playing on the left we all know.

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