🇧🇷 Ramires

[The only place to be 11,313]

Matic is brilliant at winning the ball back and making direct passes on the break which are essential for a counter-attacking team. The Man City away win is a perfect example of his game and why Mourinho bought him. If you're suggesting that he's been brought in to be part of a possession-team I disagree.

The Man City example isn't typical. They're probably the only team better than us in the league and yes they dominated possession....then against Newcastle we had 59% of possession. Against West Brom we had 60%. Against West Ham we had 72%.

We're not being built to keep the ball so Ramires fits this team. The manager wants to do the same thing he did at Madrid and develop a brilliant counter-attack game. Winning the ball back and breaking at speed are very important for that style of play and Ramires does those things at an elite level. He is an untouchable under Mourinho and will remain so until his legs go.

Because we did that against Man City....right.

It's not possible that we're looking to play different types of football against different oppositions is it? Because the stats seem to suggest that. We even play different formations at times.

Ramires is great at getting the ball in open space and knocking it a few yards ahead to run onto.....and that's it. Occasionally he'll do a bit of skill (obligatory Barcelona goal reference) but eventually that's not going to be enough. Mourinho didn't need a whippet in Madrid because he had Khedira, Modric and Alonso and hopefully at some point we'll move on from Ramires too....unless we just keep him around for games where we do nothing but counter-attack, like we did last night.

[Styles 9,790]

The Man City example isn't typical. They're probably the only team better than us in the league and yes they dominated possession....then against Newcastle we had 59% of possession. Against West Brom we had 60%. Against West Ham we had 72%.

It is in my opinion. In most of the games against the top teams this season we've had less possession than our opponents. It's clear what Mourinho's primary tactics are.

Teams like Newcastle, West Brom and West Ham concede possession against us in order to be more solid defensively and to try and nick something on the break, which is not too dissimilar to our own tactics against the good teams although not as extreme. If those teams were interested in trying to keep the ball Mourinho would let and we'd play on the counter.

Because we did that against Man City....right.

It's not possible that we're looking to play different types of football against different oppositions is it? Because the stats seem to suggest that. We even play different formations at times.

That's fine but in some games I think we should take the initiative and impose ourselves on other teams. There is no reason why we should allow a team as rubbish as Galatasary 58% of the ball and have our players running around all game. How much damage could Hazard have caused last night if we had 58% of the ball instead of asking him to cover his fullback and then sprint 90 yards once we've won the ball back. He looked dead on his feet after 60 minutes.

Ramires is great at getting the ball in open space and knocking it a few yards ahead to run onto.....and that's it. Occasionally he'll do a bit of skill (obligatory Barcelona goal reference) but eventually that's not going to be enough. Mourinho didn't need a whippet in Madrid because he had Khedira, Modric and Alonso and hopefully at some point we'll move on from Ramires too....unless we just keep him around for games where we do nothing but counter-attack, like we did last night.

There is nothing that suggests that we'll be moving on from Ramires any time soon. Ashley and Mikel are being phased out for example whereas Ramires is a key player for Mourinho. I think that's because he fits perfectly with what Mourinho wants to do.

[The Chels 2,502]

69% pass completion for him last night. Ivanovic and Schurrle had lower, but compared to Lampard (89%) he was shocking. Technically he's inconsistent at best and been dining off that goal against Barca for the last two years. I just don't know if you can afford to play him in a team with our aspirations if you want to keep the ball, rather than chasing it. Because he can chase a ball like no other, but once he gets it then you don't really know what you're going to get.

Seems like we finally agree on this one!

I agree with the belief that Ramires wouldn’t make sense in a team that keeps the ball and plays an accurate possession game but we don’t do any of that.

In the majority of games we play, yes we do. Only away in Europe and away to other top PL sides do we concede possession by a big margin. It therefore makes no sense to make Ramires, a player who's so technically and mentally (footballing brain) limited in a possession-based system that he would not stand out in League 1, a part of the team's core.

Winning the ball back and breaking at speed are very important for that style of play and Ramires does those things at an elite level.

Really? If 'elite' means giving the ball away on the break when you're in acres of space because you cannot pass to a nearby player (never mind a long distance pass that you would expect 'elite' CMs to make) or because your first touch is truly abysmal then sure.

He is an untouchable under Mourinho and will remain so until his legs go.

I think you're right on this one, although we're yet to see if Ramires will play in CM at the expense of a fully fit/available Luiz or Matic. The last time both were available was the 0-1 win against City and they both played in the pivot leaving Ramires out of position (but somehow still in the team; sheesh he's like a cockroach). I think we will find out against Fulham supposing Luiz is fit.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Seems like we finally agree on this one!

I'm coming round to it. I think he can be a situational player next year, against the big teams when we want to play purely on the counter but the introduction of Matic has really been an eye-opener. It's like putting a beauty queen amongst a few good-looking women. You start to notice the acne more, or the lazy eye or the weird bump on the bridge of their nose. Ramires's deficiencies are just magnified when he's given possession. It's weird that a player would look worse when he gets the ball more, but in his case it's looking true.

He's an athlete first and a footballer second in my opinion. That engine of his is fantastic and can be a weapon but it's the inconsistent first touch that undoes all of that.

And yes, he scored a great goal against Barcelona.

[Styles 9,790]

I'm not condoning Ramires' lack of technical ability, far from it! I am equally as frustrated at how he just gives the ball away and makes some of the most ridiculous 'passes' you're ever likely to see. I just think Mourinho values what he brings to the table far more than accurate passes and playmaking ability,

[The Chels 2,502]

Mourinho, please spare us all from the 'How not to break the Fulham bus by Ramires Santos do Nascimento' horror show, and instead opt for a Luiz-Matic pivot!

[dee25 1,044]

I think styles is completely right – it might not be something people want to accept but he's actually right.

In games against most of the top teams, we normally have less possession than them. I’m not just talking about Arsenal and City, but also Spurs, Everton and Utd. Every single one of those teams dominated possession in the matches we played against them and I'm pretty sure that if you compare our overall possession stats with every single one of those teams, ours would be the lowest.

That’s the way Mourinho sets up the team and basically the reason why players like Mata and Kdb weren't able to perform to high productivity. Mourinho’s tactics centers primarily on conceding possession and counterattacking. Whether people like it or not, Ramires is pivotal to that system. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I think styles is completely right – it might not be something people want to accept but he's actually right.

In games against most of the top teams, we normally have less possession than them. I’m not just talking about Arsenal and City, but also Spurs, Everton and Utd. Every single one of those teams dominated possession in the matches we played against them and I'm pretty sure that if you compare our overall possession stats with every single one of those teams, ours would be the lowest.

Well three of those teams we've only played away from home. At home to Liverpool we had more possession. I also dispute your use of the term 'dominate' when in reality it's more like 55-45 in their favour. Dominating possession is like the 70% we have against the likes of Palace and Newcastle.

In fact if you want to say those teams 'dominate' possession in matches against us then the reality is that we 'dominate' possession in most games with our average possession of 54%.

Liverpool's is also 54%, Spurs's is 55%, United's is 55% and the masters of possession football (Everton and Arsenal) are 56% and 57% respectively.

Mourinho’s tactics centers primarily on conceding possession and counterattacking.

That almost makes it sound like he willingly gives up possession - he doesn't. His tactics are based around forcing teams into making mistakes in key areas and then striking quickly in first phase play. He doesn't instruct them to pass the ball to the nearest opposition player are the third phase breaks down. It's efficient football, but it has to be precise at the same time. Look at our goal yesterday - that was a designed play of overlapping runs that look to exploit gaps left by attacking teams who then turn the ball over.

But it wasn't just about running forward as fast as possible, it was about accuracy of pass and timing. Those aren't Ramires's strengths.

[The Chels 2,502]

That’s the way Mourinho sets up the team and basically the reason why players like Mata and Kdb weren't able to perform to high productivity. Mourinho’s tactics centers primarily on conceding possession and counterattacking. Whether people like it or not, Ramires is pivotal to that system. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.

Nice pun lol! But in honesty perhaps it's because Ramires doesn't actually allow for us to play possession-based football and gives the ball away so much that we are essentially forced to play couter-attacking? I agree Mourinho sets us up to play with less possession in the bigger games but Ramires definitely takes it to a whole new level.

[dee25 1,044]

I also dispute your use of the term 'dominate' when in reality it's more like 55-45 in their favour. Dominating possession is like the 70% we have against the likes of Palace and Newcastle.

I think this point is just semantics and you just nitpicking minutia details. Let's stick to the main argument which is that Mourinho's tactics isn't centered on controlling possession. The only point you've brought up to dispute that is our 70% possession against a weakened Newcastle team and West Brom - a team battling relegation. What is that supposed to prove? That we can keep possession against lowly sides? And what.....that makes us a possession based team?

Having just looked at the stats now, we're actually ninth in overall possession with teams like Swansea, Spurs, Southampton, Utd and Everton all above us. Regardless of whether the difference between us and Arsenal is one or two percent, the fact is that 8 other teams have an overall higher possession percentage than us. I think that speaks for itself.

Also our counterattacks are very, very, very much about sprints and not so much about passing. There are some teams that break while making a series of short and quick passes in midfield, Dortmund and even Liverpool are some examples. We normally transition by a singular player (usually Willian or Hazard) receiving a pass, turning and then running with the ball and taking on a defender while the others run alongside him for support. Ramires is perfect for that because he's a long distance runner and can make up ground in a blink of an eye. He also has the energy to do that continously throughout the game.

Nice pun lol! But in honesty perhaps it's because Ramires doesn't actually allow for us to play possession-based football and gives the ball away so much that we are essentially forced to play couter-attacking?

Okay, umm so my new thing is to be less of a bitch, particularly when someone says something that makes absolutely no sense to me. So how about I just refrain from addressing your point?

[The only place to be 11,313]

I think this point is just semantics and you just nitpicking minutia details. Let's stick to the main argument which is that Mourinho's tactics isn't centered on controlling possession. The only point you've brought up to dispute that is our 70% possession against a weakened Newcastle team and West Brom - a team battling relegation. What is that supposed to prove? That we can keep possession against lowly sides? And what.....that makes us a possession based team?

You used the word 'dominate'. I don't think you accidentally stumbled upon that word by randomly pressing the keys, I think that you're intelligent enough to have an idea in your head and use language to articulate that idea. 'Dominating possession' has a different meaning from other descriptions you could have used so don't get all uppity (see, I've chosen the word uppity there very deliberately) when people look at the words you've typed and discern some form of intent in their usage. OK?

You ignored the possession against Liverpool by the way....or were you including them in the catch-all term of 'lowly sides'?

Having just looked at the stats now, we're actually ninth in overall possession with teams like Swansea, Spurs, Southampton, Utd and Everton all above us. Regardless of whether the difference between us and Arsenal is one or two percent, the fact is that 8 other teams have an overall higher possession percentage than us. I think that speaks for itself.

So regardless of whether the difference is 2 or 3%....

And no, it doesn't speak for itself. Statistics are there to be interpreted, not to speak for themselves. They can't....they're just numbers.

Also our counterattacks are very, very, very much about sprints and not so much about passing. There are some teams that break while making a series of short and quick passes in midfield, Dortmund and even Liverpool are some examples. We normally transition by a singular player (usually Willian or Hazard) receiving a pass, turning and then running with the ball and taking on a defender while the others run alongside him for support. Ramires is perfect for that because he's a long distance runner and can make up ground in a blink of an eye. He also has the energy to do that continously throughout the game.

Again, that's not true. We break through very deliberate passing movements that rely on quick exchanges between players, like last night's goal.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

But we're not a team that wants possession so Ramires is perfect for Mourinho. We had 42% of the ball last night which is what the manager wants. Mourinho’s main tactic essentially amounts to conceding possession, pressing the opponent and counter-attacking at the speed of light. I agree with the belief that Ramires wouldn’t make sense in a team that keeps the ball and plays an accurate possession game but we don’t do any of that.

As silly as it sounds Mourinho’s tactics require a player(s) that is wasteful in possession. You can’t counter-attack if you have the lion’s share of possession.

He did have a better season last time around under the FSW. We definitely weren't playing counter-attacking football back then.

[The Chels 2,502]

Okay, umm so my new thing is to be less of a bitch, particularly when someone says something that makes absolutely no sense to me. So how about I just refrain from addressing your point?

Oh here comes the whole 'I don't like what you're saying so I'm going to pretend it makes no sense' pathetic response. What's so difficult to understand about the concept of Ramires hindering us from playing possession-based football because of his technical limitations and because of the FACT that he constantly gets dispossessed and forces the team to retreat? Do you think that if the Barcelona/Bayern/Madrid etc. midfield were so poor with the ball at their feet and couldn't string a couple of passes together without being dispossessed, particularly when under pressure (i.e. Ramires), that they could dominate possession?

He did have a better season last time around under the FSW. We definitely weren't playing counter-attacking football back then.

We were in the Europa League though, and to be fair that's probably Ramires' level. Should ship him to Tottenham lol. But in all seriousness I think many of us had forgotten what seeing a top class CM playing for Chelsea looked like. Matic is quickly reminding us.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

Thanks to LeChels I just realized that Ramires has the same last name as Pele

Cousins? Not with THAT first touch.

[dee25 1,044]

Dominating possession' has a different meaning from other descriptions you could have used so don't get all uppity (see, I've chosen the word uppity there very deliberately)

Uppity? See that's very ironic because you nitpicking my choice of words is actually the very definition of uppity. Dominating vs having more possession - the difference is a matter of semantics. Either way both infers a state of control of the ball - although to varying degrees. So let's not turn this into some sort of linguistic battle, first of all, I guarantee you I'll win and secondly, it'll do nothing but derail the thread.

And no, it doesn't speak for itself. Statistics are there to be interpreted, not to speak for themselves. They can't....they're just numbers.

4 percent separates us and City while 6 percent separates us from Newcastle and West Brom. So here's my interpretation, our tactics aren't focused on possession. Is that interpretive enough for you? Or would you prefer me to draw up a graph? Or maybe a 10 pg paper quantifying the 4 percent difference in possession between us and City? (btw, that's uppity)

Again, that's not true. We break through very deliberate passing movements that rely on quick exchanges between players, like last night's goal.

How many times have our counterattacks involved an exchange of passes like that one? That goal is very different from the goals/chances we normally create on the break. For one thing, It's very rare that our counterattack wouldn't be lead by either Willian or Hazard and we don't normally see Azpi bomb forward like that to tee up the striker. Really you can argue from now until your blue in the face. Fact is, Mourinho typically values workhorses like Ramires over the passing type players. He's very much central to Mourinho's tactics whether you and I like it.

Anyway, this has been fun but I probably should stop procrastinating and face this evil bastard paper that I've been putting off.

Oh and before you break out the semantic siren, I don't actually mean the paper itself is evil........

[Styles 9,790]

I think styles is completely right – it might not be something people want to accept but he's actually right.

In games against most of the top teams, we normally have less possession than them. I’m not just talking about Arsenal and City, but also Spurs, Everton and Utd. Every single one of those teams dominated possession in the matches we played against them and I'm pretty sure that if you compare our overall possession stats with every single one of those teams, ours would be the lowest.

That’s the way Mourinho sets up the team and basically the reason why players like Mata and Kdb weren't able to perform to high productivity. Mourinho’s tactics centers primarily on conceding possession and counterattacking. Whether people like it or not, Ramires is pivotal to that system. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.

People do not want to criticise the tactics but will criticise the players the manager deems absolutely crucial to said tactics. The average football supporter performs some unbelievable mental gymnastics that politicians would be proud of.

[The only place to be 11,313]

The tactics at the moment vary on the opposition. Against the top teams we do have less possession because Mourinho's first thought is always not to lose those matches. That means we do set up on the counter and for those matches the best option is often Ramires, but not always in the pivot. There his physical attributes are utilised in a hybrid winger/midfielder role where he'll tuck in more when we defend and play like a traditional winger when we attack.

But on the whole we do have more possession than our opponents. It's unlikely we're going to move to a Barca-type system because at the moment we really only have one top midfielder (Matic). Hopefully we improve on this in the future either by promoting from within or going into the market but at the moment I don't think we can really hope to control the possession against top teams consistently with someone as limited as Ramires.

Also, you should look beyond those stats and examine the games we've actually played. The games away to Spurs and Arsenal were both away from home and we've only had Matic's presence in midfield for a month so the vast majority of matches were without him. Both of those factors will have a bearing on the statistics.

[dee25 1,044]

People do not want to criticise the tactics but will criticise the players the manager deems absolutely crucial to said tactics. The average football supporter performs some unbelievable mental gymnastics that politicians would be proud of.

Exactly. Really, who are we trying kid here? Ramires is central to Mourinho's tactics. We might not like it, but criticize the tactics not the players.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Exactly. Really, who are we trying kid here? Ramires is central to Mourinho's tactics. We might not like it, but criticize the tactics not the players.

I know you love your stats so here's a question for you. Since Matic was first given his full debut against Stoke, how many times has Ramires played in central midfield/the pivot?

Echo, echo, echo, echo.....

The answer is of the 8 games we've played since Matic was signed, Ramires has played in the pivot....

THREE times (and one of those was against Galatasaray where Matic was cup-tied). That also includes the West Ham game where Ramires (Mr. central to Mourinho's tactics) was moved to the wing to accommodate Lampard and Matic after 63 minutes, and then into a sorta full-back role.

In the other five games Matic has played in the middle with Lampard or Luiz, with Ramires either on the bench or on the wing.

Edited February 28, 2014 by The only place to be

[The Chels 2,502]

So let's not turn this into some sort of linguistic battle, first of all, I guarantee you I'll win

Well this is awkward...

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_07.htm