Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[robsblubot 3,595]

23 minutes ago, Chuckso said:

Ian Maatsen went immediately to win young player of the month. Pulisic and even Ruben Cheek are playing well at Milan. Under good management these players would flourish and that is when to properly judge them.

 

We have been desperately unlucky with having Frank, Potter and Poch in as mangers in succession. Get a good manager and watch these guys perform to their talents and above.

 

Pulisic and RLC are better players than we have now. Poch did not have them.
At the very least they would make far better bench options than Madueke and Mudryk.

It wasn't Poch who sent them packing--it was the brilliant leadership we have now.

Edited February 27, 2024 by robsblubot

[lucio 5,418]

13 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

You must be joking... did Maatsen look remotely ready when playing with much less defensive responsibilities (right wing/mid)? Because to be me he looked shit.

There is a very respectable take on what the best starting XI is: that the goal is to get the best players on the pitch regardless of position. SO, this stoic way of thinking regarding position I see here, is really debatable.

Brazil 82 is the prime example: there were several players out of position... some say too many.

i don't care how he played, out of position for 3 minutes every 5 matches. Fact is, he's been playing well for a far better team than us

 

It’s still early days in Dortmund for Dutch left-back Ian Maatsen, but this hasn’t stopped the entire BVB fanbase from raving about the Chelsea loanee, despite him having only played five games so far this season. Maatsen arrived relatively unknown to many, but in his short time in Dortmund, he has shown that he’s exactly the kind of player that Terzic’s team needed. Maatsen is technically gifted to the extent that he’s comfortable inverting, he’s solid in defense, and able to ask questions in the offense as well. Lastly, he doesn’t seem to run out of steam, much like his Norwegian counterpart at right back. With Maatsen in play, Dortmund can suddenly progress the ball down the left-hand side—something that wasn’t possible until recently, because Rami Bensebaini is an entirely different profile from Maatsen. I think it’s no understatement to say that the sole introduction of Ian Maatsen to the squad has totally changed the way BVB are able to play.

[lucio 5,418]

18 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Definitely and one of the reason why City and Liverpool have done good is because of continuity. 

Can now say the same with Arteta. If we fired the coach then the new coach needs another time to assess the players and we are back to the same that has been for many years. 

We are stuck with players that are not good and stagnate. Let's just stick with one manager and work on getting the right players. 

if you have already hired a top manager with a proven track record then yes, why would you suddenly choose to be patient with some loser who never won anything? could have kept lampard with that logic and not won the CL

[Vegetable 830]

I think this whole "developing players" thing is a tricky thing. Yeah, it takes time, but we need the group of players we have at their peak in 2 seasons absolute max, otherwise what? Literally teach the guys play football on reasonable level for 4-5 years, get 2-3 usable season from them and then start the relegation battle over? Especially when owner's idea seems to be replacing young players with even younger players all the time.

James, Mount etc. were elite players after like what, a year in first team? Rudiger went from meh to beast after one tea with Tuchel. That's the kind of development we can afford. I really resonate with Pep's quote someone put up here recently - first squad of an elite team is not the place to let players find their form, not even mentioning teaching them the game.

We have the same building and developing the players talk since the very first day of Potter's rule and still zero-ish outcome. I am patient, but getting the results when time is over is too late.

Edited February 27, 2024 by Vegetable

[Chuckso 17]

15 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Pulisic and RLC are better players than we have now. Poch did not have them.
At the very least they would make far better bench options than Madueke and Mudryk.

It wasn't Poch who sent them packing--it was the brilliant leadership we have now.

You seem to have a difficult time keeping up with arguments. The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly. I have stated evidence and examples to buttress my points.

 

You seem to be on the boards to play block and tackle for Poch.

 

P.S I don’t mean to be harsh. From your other posts you seem an alright guy.

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 minutes ago, lucio said:

i don't care how he played, out of position for 3 minutes every 5 matches. Fact is, he's been playing well for a far better team than us

 

It’s still early days in Dortmund for Dutch left-back Ian Maatsen, but this hasn’t stopped the entire BVB fanbase from raving about the Chelsea loanee, despite him having only played five games so far this season. Maatsen arrived relatively unknown to many, but in his short time in Dortmund, he has shown that he’s exactly the kind of player that Terzic’s team needed. Maatsen is technically gifted to the extent that he’s comfortable inverting, he’s solid in defense, and able to ask questions in the offense as well. Lastly, he doesn’t seem to run out of steam, much like his Norwegian counterpart at right back. With Maatsen in play, Dortmund can suddenly progress the ball down the left-hand side—something that wasn’t possible until recently, because Rami Bensebaini is an entirely different profile from Maatsen. I think it’s no understatement to say that the sole introduction of Ian Maatsen to the squad has totally changed the way BVB are able to play.

Yeah, same way Werner was great in Bundesliga before joining us. Same way Cuccurella was amazing before joining us. Same as Caicedo and so many others... different standards different team setup.

I don't have a problem not disagreeing about a choice, preferring a player over another. My point is that it is literally the manager's job to find a balance for the team. He may have preferred to field more ready players considering how many youngsters he already has to employ. He may have preferred a more defensive LB in Colwill so that the winger does not have to track back so much. There are a lot of potential reasons for each choice and honestly, again, that's his prerogative as it is his team, not ours (not our preference).

And once again, the focus on the manager is VERY misguided IMO. This shit imbalanced roster wasn't built by Poch, so if he has blame for not doing more with it, the roster is what it is and no manager will change that unless we fix it in the following transfer windows. It's still just Chilwell as the only LB option atm, for example. Could he have tried 3atb? maybe maybe he should have, which may have opened up a place for Maatsen as an option, but I still blame the club a lot more.

[robsblubot 3,595]

3 minutes ago, Chuckso said:

You seem to have a difficult time keeping up with arguments. The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly. I have stated evidence and examples to buttress my points.

 

You seem to be on the boards to play block and tackle for Poch.

 

P.S I don’t mean to be harsh. From your other posts you seem an alright guy.

 

I missed nothing, I merely disagreed with your point, but that seems like an alien concept these days on this forum.

"The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly."
Disagreed.

BTW, your evidence is incorrect: you cannot do AB testing without control.

[lucio 5,418]

9 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Yeah, same way Werner was great in Bundesliga before joining us. Same way Cuccurella was amazing before joining us. Same as Caicedo and so many others... different standards different team setup.

I don't have a problem not disagreeing about a choice, preferring a player over another. My point is that it is literally the manager's job to find a balance for the team. He may have preferred to field more ready players considering how many youngsters he already has to employ. He may have preferred a more defensive LB in Colwill so that the winger does not have to track back so much. There are a lot of potential reasons for each choice and honestly, again, that's his prerogative as it is his team, not ours (not our preference).

And once again, the focus on the manager is VERY misguided IMO. This shit imbalanced roster wasn't built by Poch, so if he has blame for not doing more with it, the roster is what it is and no manager will change that unless we fix it in the following transfer windows. It's still just Chilwell as the only LB option atm, for example. Could he have tried 3atb? maybe maybe he should have, which may have opened up a place for Maatsen as an option, but I still blame the club a lot more.

those guys all had a big run of games in their normal position. I was thinking of maatsen more as a wb in a back 3/5 yes. It would benefit the old silva and help colwill settle as a back 3 too, a good manager would have seen this.

Even if we had a perfect squad - would you want Poch? for me he'd still put the team at a competitive disadvantage as we'd be fighting against clubs with much better managers. 

Do you see him winning PL/CL , if not , what's the goal? if we want to win those trophies again we'd have to sack him somewhere down the line anyway. If our ambitions are lower now,  we could have midtable mediocrity with potter and save a bunch of money

[lucio 5,418]

10 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

I missed nothing, I merely disagreed with your point, but that seems like an alien concept these days on this forum.

"The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly."
Disagreed.

BTW, your evidence is incorrect: you cannot do AB testing without control.

new managers have an immediate impact all the time. If it wasn't the case, you wouldn't see clubs threatened with relegation routinely fire managers as a last attempt to stay up

[robsblubot 3,595]

Just now, lucio said:

those guys all had a big run of games in their normal position. I was thinking of maatsen more as a wb in a back 3/5 yes. It would benefit the old silva and help colwill settle as a back 3 too, a good manager would have seen this.

Even if we had a perfect squad - would you want Poch? for me he'd still put the team at a competitive disadvantage as we'd be fighting against clubs with much better managers. 

Do you see him winning PL/CL , if not , what's the goal? if we want to win those trophies again we'd have to sack him somewhere down the line anyway. If our ambitions are lower now,  we could have midtable mediocrity with potter and save a bunch of money

yeah not trying 3atb was baffling to me as well. 

No I don’t see poch winning anything nor would I want him here long term, but I still think football is players and we don’t have them.

Playing marginally better isn’t good enough for me.

[Chuckso 17]

13 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

I missed nothing, I merely disagreed with your point, but that seems like an alien concept these days on this forum.

"The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly."
Disagreed.

BTW, your evidence is incorrect: you cannot do AB testing without control.

I am pretty sure if we do get a competent manager next, the argument - to save face - would be that the players are now a few months older and as such have miraculously become the talents we knew they were when we bought them. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 minutes ago, lucio said:

new managers have an immediate impact all the time. If it wasn't the case, you wouldn't see clubs threatened with relegation routinely fire managers as a last attempt to stay up

They produce a marginal and temporary boost mostly due to a new take in the locker room. Usually does not last long nor does it work. Teams who change manager midway through campaigns are usually the ones in trouble and also the ones who drop.

Good managers make good players click. There little that can be done with bad players. Other than parking the bus and hoping for a miracle that is.

Everyone is talking about Liverpool kids, but how about mudryk and madueke who came on with fresh legs and did what? 

[robsblubot 3,595]

1 minute ago, Chuckso said:

I am pretty sure if we do get a competent manager next, the argument - to save face - would be that the players are now a few months older and as such have miraculously become the talents we knew they were when we bought them. 

No, some of these players are shit. That’s my take. Better system can marginally improve the play but significantly improve them? Nope

I will be right or wrong in a fee months, but I have a feeling the club will try to shake things up.

some are actually so young that a second, or first, preseason might actually help regardless of manager.

speaking of which, we focus too much on the manager where it is the club and its myriad of coaches who have a bigger impact on improving players.

[Chuckso 17]

28 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

No, some of these players are shit. That’s my take. Better system can marginally improve the play but significantly improve them? Nope

I will be right or wrong in a fee months, but I have a feeling the club will try to shake things up.

some are actually so young that a second, or first, preseason might actually help regardless of manager.

speaking of which, we focus too much on the manager where it is the club and its myriad of coaches who have a bigger impact on improving players.

Haha. I called it. The excuse is in your post.

P.S Xabi Alonso did not need a preseason for his team. They started winning immediately. 
There are many other examples of high impact, no excuses managers. Our players are carrying your Poch.
 

Edited February 27, 2024 by Chuckso

[robsblubot 3,595]

7 hours ago, Chuckso said:

Haha. I called it. The excuse is in your post.

P.S Xabi Alonso did not need a preseason for his team. They started winning immediately. 
There are many other examples of high impact, no excuses managers. 

Nope I was referring to the good players 😆
Some of these players need to be shipped far far way -- they are not even PL material.

And there are thousands more of good managers not being able to do much with poor rosters. It's actually difficult to establish causality with so many different variables, club and its many professionals involved.

A top PL club like Chelsea usually have the best coaches money can buy. Defensive, goalie, set pieces, you name it. Best physios, fitness coaches, etc. Why would the manager have that much of an impact on developing players? How come players develop well despite having multiple different managers often at the same club? Managers come and go.

Why do clubs like to buy very young players from lower leagues? their top coaches will have more time to work with these players. I totally get improving players--I just don't tie it to the manager that much.

Edited February 28, 2024 by robsblubot

[robsblubot 3,595]

Now, just for fun, I'm going to be mean. 😅

If you believe a manager has a big impact on developing players -- I don't, I think they have a much bigger impact on team performance -- would it be fair to give him credit for Sun and Kane? 🤭

If I were arguing with ... myself, I'd claim that Sun kept on developing just fine after Poch left and he's now a much better player than he was back then. That spurs must hire good coaches, have good facilities, and for that reason are able to develop their players regardless who is the manager.

Edited February 28, 2024 by robsblubot

[Blue Armour 4,448]

3 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Now, just for fun, I'm going to be mean. 😅

If you believe a manager has a big impact on developing players -- I don't I think they have a much bigger impact on team performance -- would it be fair to give him credit for Sun and Kane? 🤭

If I were arguing with ... myself, I'd claim that Sun kept on developing just fine after Poch left and he's now a much better player than he was back then. That spurs must hire good coaches, have good facilities, and for that reason are able to develop their players regardless who is the manager.

To go with an old Mourinho quote., you need good eggs to make a good omelet.

Unfortunately in Chelsea's case., we have a mediocre chef AND low grade eggs. 

 

Edited February 28, 2024 by Blue Armour

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

7 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Now, just for fun, I'm going to be mean. 😅

If you believe a manager has a big impact on developing players -- I don't I think they have a much bigger impact on team performance -- would it be fair to give him credit for Sun and Kane? 🤭

If I were arguing with ... myself, I'd claim that Sun kept on developing just fine after Poch left and he's now a much better player than he was back then. That spurs must hire good coaches, have good facilities, and for that reason are able to develop their players regardless who is the manager.

There was some study similar to ones showing that orchestras dont need conductors,  (cant recall where now) whereby the results more or less showed the manager was irrelevant to a large degree, the impact on performance minimal.

[milka 3,393]

Players develop when around them they have experience, class, a level to chase, we don't have that, so I don't see what we are developing Mount, James, Tomori developed because they had Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Alonso, Jorginho, Giroud, Kante around them. In a top club, what we are doing is pure suicide if your entire team is inexperienced youngsters who, besides everything, arrive from mediocre championships such as Ukraine, Netherland, Brazil.

Real Madrid kept people like Modric to learn from him for a year, Bellingham, Kamavinga and the rest of their young players, but we will make a revolution and we will only be with youngsters.

[gdlk 286]

How can you say that we have been tired vs Liverpool C team and kids.. So lame excuses.. They played hard match in the midweek while we had 1 whole week to prepare.. And at the end we were tired.