Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[TheHulk 1,855]

1 hour ago, YorkshireBlue said:

I saw this In another forum, I think it's spot on.

 

How are you supposed to judge the improvement of Jackson, Palmer, Caicedo, Madueke, Gusto, Disasi, Colwill, Petrovic? Palmer is better than what he showed at City last season, Gusto has been excellent, Disasi and Colwill are better players than they were at the beginning of the season, and Sterling improved on last season. Let's not let a narrative get in the way of actual evidence. 

You also cannot assemble a squad devoid of leadership characteristics and then 8 months into his tenure blame the manager for the lack of leadership being shown (even more so when considering other factors like injuries). As I've said, keep the manager unless things become untenable, build the squad, fix the injury issues. That's the only way forward.

Complete horseshit, Palmer was playing very good right before we signed him, Sterling is just as inconsistent, Disasi played one good game and suddenly Poch improved him and he became world class around here, Colwill was played out of position whole season, didn't bother dropping Sanchez even after that embarrassment against Arsenal and you think he improved Petrovic?

Edited February 27 by TheHulk

[robsblubot 3,502]

20 minutes ago, TheHulk said:

Complete horseshit, Palmer was playing very good right before we signed him, Sterling is just as inconsistent, Disasi played one good game and suddenly Poch improved him and he became world class around here, Colwill was played out of position whole season, didn't bother dropping Sanchez even after that embarrassment against Arsenal and you think he improved Petrovic?

With this logic it's impossible to give the manager any credit, even when he deserves some. No, he's not a great manager and likely not the one to get us out of this hole, but ultimately football is about the 11 players on the pitch and ours aren't anywhere near good enough.
A simple exercise is to think which of our players would walk into any of the top6 teams in the PL. Reckon some of our rotation players wouldn't sit on the bench for many of these teams.

Palmer was let go by City. Agreed on Sterling and Disasi, but Poch tactics, playing a low block of late helped the slow CB Disasi is.
Colwill played as LB because Chilwell was always injured or unfit. Cuccu is deemed surplus and we will try to move him in the summer. We have an abundance of CBs, not so much FB. As soon as Chilwell was fit, colwill was moved to CB and stayed there. Honestly I can't imagine another manager acting much differently here.

I think unless we bring a manager who can help build a squad, like find the right player and decide which should go, I don't really care too much who the manager is. If the next one will be another yes-man, then nothing will change... why bother?

Edited February 27 by robsblubot

[lucio 5,418]

Just now, robsblubot said:

With this logic it's impossible to give the manager any credit, even when he deserves some. No, he's not a great manager and likely not the one to get us out of this hole, but ultimately football is about the 11 players on the pitch and ours aren't anywhere near good enough.
A simple exercise is to think which of our players would walk into any of the top6 teams in the PL. Reckon some of our rotation players wouldn't sit on the bench for many of these teams.

Palmer was let go by City. Agreed on Sterling and Disasi, but Poch tactics, playing a low block of late helped the slow CB Disasi is.
Colwill played as LB because Chilwell was always injured or unfit. Cuccu is deemed surplus and we will try to move him in the summer. We have an abundance of CBs, not so much FB. As soon as Chilwell was fit, colwill was moved to CB and stayed there. Honestly I can't imagine another manager acting much differently here.

I think unless we bring a manager who can help build a squad, like find the right player and decide which should go, I don't really care too much who the manager is. If the next one will be another yes-man, then nothing will change... why bother?

Dude had maatsen all year fit and ready but he chose to put colwill out of position. 

[Chuckso 17]

4 hours ago, lucio said:

Why not ? Season is dead so there’s no point wasting time with poch, sack him now or back him long term (although that will mean mediocrity for years to come) 

fresh impetus might even help some of these guys , someone who can fire them up and motivate instead of another soft touch 

Our best game last season was the one vs Liverpool - only game managed by Bruno Saltor. 

Edited February 27 by Chuckso

[Chuckso 17]

1 hour ago, Fernando said:

Maybe but he will help build a competitive team and organization. Something he did before and that usually takes more then one season. 

I knew this season would be like this but there's game that I seen what it can be. 

I still say back him and give him next season. 

 

Yet - yet… Xabi Alonso took over at Leverkusen second from bottom with a quarter of the season played and has broken records in his second season.

All what has been seen is stagnation and regression.

[Chuckso 17]

22 minutes ago, lucio said:

Dude had maatsen all year fit and ready but he chose to put colwill out of position. 

Ian Maatsen went immediately to win young player of the month. Pulisic and even Ruben Cheek are playing well at Milan. Under good management these players would flourish and that is when to properly judge them.

 

We have been desperately unlucky with having Frank, Potter and Poch in as mangers in succession. Get a good manager and watch these guys perform to their talents and above.

 

Edited February 27 by Chuckso

[Chuckso 17]

24 minutes ago, Chuckso said:

Our best game last season was the one vs Liverpool - only game managed by Bruno Saltor. 

In fact that game gave a bright spotlight to the effect a manager can have.

We went from lifeless under Potter - to a great game vs Liverpool (when we were expecting a thrashing. We matched them toe to toe) under Saltor - to IMMEDIATELY going back to listless under Frank the next game he took over…. Night - Day - Night

 

Anyone who doubts should go watch the extended highlights of those 3 games. 

Edited February 27 by Chuckso

[Chuckso 17]

Delete

Edited February 27 by Chuckso

[robsblubot 3,502]

45 minutes ago, lucio said:

Dude had maatsen all year fit and ready but he chose to put colwill out of position. 

You must be joking... did Maatsen look remotely ready when playing with much less defensive responsibilities (right wing/mid)? Because to be me he looked shit. Besides, Poch might have wanted a more defensive option to balance out the team, which is his prerogative as manager.

There is a very respectable take on what the best starting XI is: that the goal is to get the best players on the pitch regardless of position. SO, this stoic way of thinking regarding position I see here, is really debatable.

Brazil 82 is the prime example: there were several players out of position... some say too many.

Edited February 27 by robsblubot

[Fernando 6,453]

1 hour ago, YorkshireBlue said:

I saw this In another forum, I think it's spot on.

 

How are you supposed to judge the improvement of Jackson, Palmer, Caicedo, Madueke, Gusto, Disasi, Colwill, Petrovic? Palmer is better than what he showed at City last season, Gusto has been excellent, Disasi and Colwill are better players than they were at the beginning of the season, and Sterling improved on last season. Let's not let a narrative get in the way of actual evidence. 

You also cannot assemble a squad devoid of leadership characteristics and then 8 months into his tenure blame the manager for the lack of leadership being shown (even more so when considering other factors like injuries). As I've said, keep the manager unless things become untenable, build the squad, fix the injury issues. That's the only way forward.

Definitely and one of the reason why City and Liverpool have done good is because of continuity. 

Can now say the same with Arteta. If we fired the coach then the new coach needs another time to assess the players and we are back to the same that has been for many years. 

We are stuck with players that are not good and stagnate. Let's just stick with one manager and work on getting the right players. 

[robsblubot 3,502]

23 minutes ago, Chuckso said:

Ian Maatsen went immediately to win young player of the month. Pulisic and even Ruben Cheek are playing well at Milan. Under good management these players would flourish and that is when to properly judge them.

 

We have been desperately unlucky with having Frank, Potter and Poch in as mangers in succession. Get a good manager and watch these guys perform to their talents and above.

 

Pulisic and RLC are better players than we have now. Poch did not have them.
At the very least they would make far better bench options than Madueke and Mudryk.

It wasn't Poch who sent them packing--it was the brilliant leadership we have now.

Edited February 27 by robsblubot

[lucio 5,418]

13 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

You must be joking... did Maatsen look remotely ready when playing with much less defensive responsibilities (right wing/mid)? Because to be me he looked shit.

There is a very respectable take on what the best starting XI is: that the goal is to get the best players on the pitch regardless of position. SO, this stoic way of thinking regarding position I see here, is really debatable.

Brazil 82 is the prime example: there were several players out of position... some say too many.

i don't care how he played, out of position for 3 minutes every 5 matches. Fact is, he's been playing well for a far better team than us

 

It’s still early days in Dortmund for Dutch left-back Ian Maatsen, but this hasn’t stopped the entire BVB fanbase from raving about the Chelsea loanee, despite him having only played five games so far this season. Maatsen arrived relatively unknown to many, but in his short time in Dortmund, he has shown that he’s exactly the kind of player that Terzic’s team needed. Maatsen is technically gifted to the extent that he’s comfortable inverting, he’s solid in defense, and able to ask questions in the offense as well. Lastly, he doesn’t seem to run out of steam, much like his Norwegian counterpart at right back. With Maatsen in play, Dortmund can suddenly progress the ball down the left-hand side—something that wasn’t possible until recently, because Rami Bensebaini is an entirely different profile from Maatsen. I think it’s no understatement to say that the sole introduction of Ian Maatsen to the squad has totally changed the way BVB are able to play.

[lucio 5,418]

18 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Definitely and one of the reason why City and Liverpool have done good is because of continuity. 

Can now say the same with Arteta. If we fired the coach then the new coach needs another time to assess the players and we are back to the same that has been for many years. 

We are stuck with players that are not good and stagnate. Let's just stick with one manager and work on getting the right players. 

if you have already hired a top manager with a proven track record then yes, why would you suddenly choose to be patient with some loser who never won anything? could have kept lampard with that logic and not won the CL

[Vegetable 830]

I think this whole "developing players" thing is a tricky thing. Yeah, it takes time, but we need the group of players we have at their peak in 2 seasons absolute max, otherwise what? Literally teach the guys play football on reasonable level for 4-5 years, get 2-3 usable season from them and then start the relegation battle over? Especially when owner's idea seems to be replacing young players with even younger players all the time.

James, Mount etc. were elite players after like what, a year in first team? Rudiger went from meh to beast after one tea with Tuchel. That's the kind of development we can afford. I really resonate with Pep's quote someone put up here recently - first squad of an elite team is not the place to let players find their form, not even mentioning teaching them the game.

We have the same building and developing the players talk since the very first day of Potter's rule and still zero-ish outcome. I am patient, but getting the results when time is over is too late.

Edited February 27 by Vegetable

[Chuckso 17]

15 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Pulisic and RLC are better players than we have now. Poch did not have them.
At the very least they would make far better bench options than Madueke and Mudryk.

It wasn't Poch who sent them packing--it was the brilliant leadership we have now.

You seem to have a difficult time keeping up with arguments. The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly. I have stated evidence and examples to buttress my points.

 

You seem to be on the boards to play block and tackle for Poch.

 

P.S I don’t mean to be harsh. From your other posts you seem an alright guy.

 

[robsblubot 3,502]

2 minutes ago, lucio said:

i don't care how he played, out of position for 3 minutes every 5 matches. Fact is, he's been playing well for a far better team than us

 

It’s still early days in Dortmund for Dutch left-back Ian Maatsen, but this hasn’t stopped the entire BVB fanbase from raving about the Chelsea loanee, despite him having only played five games so far this season. Maatsen arrived relatively unknown to many, but in his short time in Dortmund, he has shown that he’s exactly the kind of player that Terzic’s team needed. Maatsen is technically gifted to the extent that he’s comfortable inverting, he’s solid in defense, and able to ask questions in the offense as well. Lastly, he doesn’t seem to run out of steam, much like his Norwegian counterpart at right back. With Maatsen in play, Dortmund can suddenly progress the ball down the left-hand side—something that wasn’t possible until recently, because Rami Bensebaini is an entirely different profile from Maatsen. I think it’s no understatement to say that the sole introduction of Ian Maatsen to the squad has totally changed the way BVB are able to play.

Yeah, same way Werner was great in Bundesliga before joining us. Same way Cuccurella was amazing before joining us. Same as Caicedo and so many others... different standards different team setup.

I don't have a problem not disagreeing about a choice, preferring a player over another. My point is that it is literally the manager's job to find a balance for the team. He may have preferred to field more ready players considering how many youngsters he already has to employ. He may have preferred a more defensive LB in Colwill so that the winger does not have to track back so much. There are a lot of potential reasons for each choice and honestly, again, that's his prerogative as it is his team, not ours (not our preference).

And once again, the focus on the manager is VERY misguided IMO. This shit imbalanced roster wasn't built by Poch, so if he has blame for not doing more with it, the roster is what it is and no manager will change that unless we fix it in the following transfer windows. It's still just Chilwell as the only LB option atm, for example. Could he have tried 3atb? maybe maybe he should have, which may have opened up a place for Maatsen as an option, but I still blame the club a lot more.

[robsblubot 3,502]

3 minutes ago, Chuckso said:

You seem to have a difficult time keeping up with arguments. The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly. I have stated evidence and examples to buttress my points.

 

You seem to be on the boards to play block and tackle for Poch.

 

P.S I don’t mean to be harsh. From your other posts you seem an alright guy.

 

I missed nothing, I merely disagreed with your point, but that seems like an alien concept these days on this forum.

"The argument here is that managers have a very significant effect on the players performance and can do so instantly."
Disagreed.

BTW, your evidence is incorrect: you cannot do AB testing without control.

[lucio 5,418]

9 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Yeah, same way Werner was great in Bundesliga before joining us. Same way Cuccurella was amazing before joining us. Same as Caicedo and so many others... different standards different team setup.

I don't have a problem not disagreeing about a choice, preferring a player over another. My point is that it is literally the manager's job to find a balance for the team. He may have preferred to field more ready players considering how many youngsters he already has to employ. He may have preferred a more defensive LB in Colwill so that the winger does not have to track back so much. There are a lot of potential reasons for each choice and honestly, again, that's his prerogative as it is his team, not ours (not our preference).

And once again, the focus on the manager is VERY misguided IMO. This shit imbalanced roster wasn't built by Poch, so if he has blame for not doing more with it, the roster is what it is and no manager will change that unless we fix it in the following transfer windows. It's still just Chilwell as the only LB option atm, for example. Could he have tried 3atb? maybe maybe he should have, which may have opened up a place for Maatsen as an option, but I still blame the club a lot more.

those guys all had a big run of games in their normal position. I was thinking of maatsen more as a wb in a back 3/5 yes. It would benefit the old silva and help colwill settle as a back 3 too, a good manager would have seen this.

Even if we had a perfect squad - would you want Poch? for me he'd still put the team at a competitive disadvantage as we'd be fighting against clubs with much better managers. 

Do you see him winning PL/CL , if not , what's the goal? if we want to win those trophies again we'd have to sack him somewhere down the line anyway. If our ambitions are lower now,  we could have midtable mediocrity with potter and save a bunch of money