Kalidou Koulibaly

[OneMoSalah 8,614]

His own worst enemy. Actually showed some impressive distribution tonight but then had a nightmare whenever he had to defend.

Has been abysmal since he came here, it is actually mental how bad he has been for someone of his ability and experience. 

Surprised Sky or BBC or other channels haven’t criticised him heavily in the same way they'd gone after Lisandro Martinez (who has been pretty outstanding after a bumpy start I must admit) and others in the past ie David Luiz.

Christensen and Rudiger were massive losses as it was, even more so now. Not been impressed with Fofana either when he played at the beginning. 

[Reddish-Blue 2,223]

19 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

His own worst enemy. Actually showed some impressive distribution tonight but then had a nightmare whenever he had to defend.

Has been abysmal since he came here, it is actually mental how bad he has been for someone of his ability and experience. 

Surprised Sky or BBC or other channels haven’t criticised him heavily in the same way they'd gone after Lisandro Martinez (who has been pretty outstanding after a bumpy start I must admit) and others in the past ie David Luiz.

Christensen and Rudiger were massive losses as it was, even more so now. Not been impressed with Fofana either when he played at the beginning. 

Has Fofana even had 5 full games for us yet?   Bit harsh to judge a young defender with so little time on the pitch. 

I'd be more concerned about KK looking like a Championship level defender right now and Chalobah is bang average, I can see why we went for that Monaco CB as we only have 1 CB that we can count on putting in a good performance on a consistent basis (Silva). 

[OneMoSalah 8,614]

10 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Has Fofana even had 5 full games for us yet?   Bit harsh to judge a young defender with so little time on the pitch. 

I'd be more concerned about KK looking like a Championship level defender right now and Chalobah is bang average, I can see why we went for that Monaco CB as we only have 1 CB that we can count on putting in a good performance on a consistent basis (Silva). 

The times he played he’s looked so average though, I mean in terms of judging the ball in the air, reading the play on the ground etc. He looks like someone who’s career is going to be effectively defined by him relying on his mobility to get him out of trouble if he plays in a high line. For what we paid, he’s never going to be value for money. Like Maguire at Leicester, its fine playing 20m away from your goal. You don’t have the space in behind and you normally have good protection in front. At Chelsea its different when your going to be having to break down teams, one advantage he has is he can carry the ball forward if he plays in a 3 with a bit more protection but we look like we will play a 433/4231 if we stick with Potter so again it remains to be seen how good he can actually be in a higher line in a back 4. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by OneMoSalah

[Bren 41]

So disappointed in him overall. Another one who's come for the huge pay check in the twilight of his career. Can't blame him though, the club need to wise up.

[Vesper 27,315]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

So disappointed in him overall. Another one who's come for the huge pay check in the twilight of his career. Can't blame him though, the club need to wise up.

Madness to pay him £295K PW for FOUR YEARS

that's

£61.5m

€70m!

add in the €38m (£33.5m) transfer fee

and it's

€108m (£95m) total spend

 

[Hashishi 148]

9 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Madness to pay him £295K PW for FOUR YEARS

that's

£61.5m

€70m!

add in the €38m (£33.5m) transfer fee

and it's

€108m (£95m) total spend

 

He was signed because tuchel wanted to play 3atb. But in retrospect he was signed because marina failed to tie down Christensen and rudi. With your numbers though its quite obvious he was signed by some clowns who dont know how to do business or how to assess players or who even passes the effing eye test. Anyone that watched KK in italy would know he was made for italy. Noone would more than triple his wage just because we were desperate. There comes a point where you write off the season and bleed through the academy. I would rather we played humphreys than signed this clown for the circus.

[Blue Armour 4,165]

14 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Madness to pay him £295K PW for FOUR YEARS

that's

£61.5m

€70m!

add in the €38m (£33.5m) transfer fee

and it's

€108m (£95m) total spend

 

Just wondering-

Is this more than what Rudiger was asking for in his extension? I don't think it was too far from it, in any case.

[Hashishi 148]

2 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Just wondering-

Is this more than what Rudiger was asking for in his extension? I don't think it was too far from it, in any case.

Rudiger was also worried about his place in the team. If we shifted away from 3atb he wouldnt really fit in anymore like under lampard. Another reason he left was that RM offered him 35m as a signing on bonus. We offered him a higher wage but why not take it upfront. In retrospect, pay him the 35m we gave for kk and give him his 300k wage. Guy was a fighter and we are lacking someone like him in defense.

[Vesper 27,315]

18 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Just wondering-

Is this more than what Rudiger was asking for in his extension? I don't think it was too far from it, in any case.

Rudiger TOTAL deal with Real Madrid (signing bonus, add-on commission, salary) prorated out over 4 years (and remember, he is almost 2 years younger than KK) adds up to a total of £71.1m

our total deal for KK was £24m MORE, around £95m (counting transfer fee + salary) for a non ELP proven, ageing out player

Marina refused to pay the signing bonus and the extra commision for Rudiger (added up to around £19m or £20m after conversion to pounds at the time, and I think his demands were less than that for us), which was fucking STUPID

as there was NO chance we were going to replace him for anywhere near that £20m, and a salary would still be around what we offered him (turned out to be even more for KK)

the only free mover CB at a Rudiger's quality level is IF Skriniar leaves on free in summer 2023, that did not help us back then, and Skriniar may well renew or if he doesn't, PSG is ALL in, so Skriniar is not at all a sure thing. Ndicka (also fee in summer 2023) is on the way there IMHO, but we obviously do not rate him as we just dropped £33.5m on Badiashile instead, and both are left-footer anyway, Rudiger is a righty, as is Skriniar

[Reddish-Blue 2,223]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

The times he played he’s looked so average though, I mean in terms of judging the ball in the air, reading the play on the ground etc. He looks like someone who’s career is going to be effectively defined by him relying on his mobility to get him out of trouble if he plays in a high line. For what we paid, he’s never going to be value for money. Like Maguire at Leicester, its fine playing 20m away from your goal. You don’t have the space in behind and you normally have good protection in front. At Chelsea its different when your going to be having to break down teams, one advantage he has is he can carry the ball forward if he plays in a 3 with a bit more protection but we look like we will play a 433/4231 if we stick with Potter so again it remains to be seen how good he can actually be in a higher line in a back 4. 

Fair point but we also need a midfielder who can do the dirty work in front of the back 4 so that they don't look that exposed.  Right now between Jorginho & Kovacic, neither one has that defensive 'steel' in them to make those tactical fouls, get physical with the opposition and be able to break up play effectively.

Even JT & co had the likes of Makelele & Essien & Obi Mikel patrolling the midfield all those years ago...

It's no surprise that United look like a top 4 side again with the signing of Casemiro.  We've missed that since Matic was sold by the club, that presence, that know-how in tactical fouls (which players like Fabinho, Rodri tend to get away with).

[Vesper 27,315]

6 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Fair point but we also need a midfielder who can do the dirty work in front of the back 4 so that they don't look that exposed.  Right now between Jorginho & Kovacic, neither one has that defensive 'steel' in them to make those tactical fouls, get physical with the opposition and be able to break up play effectively.

Even JT & co had the likes of Makelele & Essien & Obi Mikel patrolling the midfield all those years ago...

It's no surprise that United look like a top 4 side again with the signing of Casemiro.  We've missed that since Matic was sold by the club, that presence, that know-how in tactical fouls (which players like Fabinho, Rodri tend to get away with).

That is exactly what I thought we were getting with Bakayoko, my biggest mistake and only real cock-up in terms of getting played in the last 6 years or so (I said he was a great buy). One of the reasons I have not made other mistakes is that we consistently have brought in players I did not want and thus I predicted they wouldn't work out (and when I did, I was almost always right).

 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

5 hours ago, Vesper said:

That is exactly what I thought we were getting with Bakayoko, my biggest mistake and only real cock-up in terms of getting played in the last 6 years or so (I said he was a great buy). One of the reasons I have not made other mistakes is that we consistently have brought in players I did not want and thus I predicted they wouldn't work out (and when I did, I was almost always right).

 

You are not alone on Bakayoko I'm ashamed to say. Not my only mistake though.

[Vesper 27,315]

47 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

You are not alone on Bakayoko I'm ashamed to say. Not my only mistake though.

well, I have had some that although I was not in favour of buying, that once they got here, I thought they MIGHT work out, and they didn't.

And I never thought (I thought he was a good free sign, just not great) Thiago would retain his WC skills at his age

he absolutely IS still a WC CB, and there are so so few of them out there, it is a hell of hard position to play into today's ultra explosive game that has been greatly de-strongmanned on defence

no more Choppers allowed

Edited January 9, 2023 by Vesper

[Magic Lamps 11,450]

I looked a bit into Napoli's season and defense set up after KKs departure. As everyone knows they are on course of having their best Serie A season ever and leading the table by a huge margin with a massively improved backline. But when you look at how they defend, they have a lot more variability in how high they defend and are able to extinguish opposition attacks way earlier now then they used to, which allows them to win balls high up the pitch. A pattern that is very much novel to their play. Contrary to the outdated view that KK was their leader and best defender another notion imposes itself with quite some urgency. One could say KK was Napoli's reverse Maradaona. The ony carried an average team to a league title, the other captain prevented a great team from doing so.

Especially given how his replacement Min-Jae Kim who is a lot more solid and conservative in style than the adventurous Koulibaly, my conclusion would is that while KK papered over his poor overall positional discipline by headline grabbing tackles every once in while he effectively held Napoli back as the rest of the defence had to compensate his shortcomings.

[Hamilton 2,118]

Glad Fofana is back and did good, don’t want to see this guy again to be honest. He’s just not good enough (anymore)

[ulvhedin 473]

6 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

I looked a bit into Napoli's season and defense set up after KKs departure. As everyone knows they are on course of having their best Serie A season ever and leading the table by a huge margin with a massively improved backline. But when you look at how they defend, they have a lot more variability in how high they defend and are able to extinguish opposition attacks way earlier now then they used to, which allows them to win balls high up the pitch. A pattern that is very much novel to their play. Contrary to the outdated view that KK was their leader and best defender another notion imposes itself with quite some urgency. One could say KK was Napoli's reverse Maradaona. The ony carried an average team to a league title, the other captain prevented a great team from doing so.

Especially given how his replacement Min-Jae Kim who is a lot more solid and conservative in style than the adventurous Koulibaly, my conclusion would is that while KK papered over his poor overall positional discipline by headline grabbing tackles every once in while he effectively held Napoli back as the rest of the defence had to compensate his shortcomings.

I think this is exaggeration - Kvara transfer, and Osimhen and Lobotka form explosion are more important factors IMHO than KK departure.

[Magic Lamps 11,450]

2 hours ago, ulvhedin said:

I think this is exaggeration - Kvara transfer, and Osimhen and Lobotka form explosion are more important factors IMHO than KK departure.

sure their offence has improved and Lobotka is a great stability anchor but  I was talking more about their defence. Look at how high Napoli can press up the field without Koulibaly and how disciplined Min-jae Kim marshalls their D as opposed to KK' impro style defending. They have conceded just 15 goals so far. Never had conceded this few after 23 games in any season Koulibaly started for them.

[Mhsc 631]

Growing by the game at the moment. Looks a different player to the beginning of the season. Finally Kalidou has arrived.