closed Chelsea 3-0 West Ham

[Superblue 6,331]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

I agree with you about the 4-3-3 and I also thought it works well for the team the moment Lampard switched to it at Krasnodar - also fair to note that he stumbled upon it considering he was chopping and changing it before then - but the more we play it, the more obvious that it does not fit Werner and likely even Havertz at all. Unless Werner scores regularly, he is lost out wide while Havertz has not had a really strong game, dominant game (that Barnsley game is not counted and we weren't even playing 4-3-3 in that one, IIRC). I do not think Roman agreed to spend more than 100 million on those two, only to see Lampard struggle to fit them into a cohesive system with the rest (and before anyone jumps in, am not talking about Werner's missed chances!).

Lampard went overboard with the chopping and changing of system and personnel last season and while the consistent selection this season has been good, that does not mean he should stick with it for the sake of it if he doesn't have the personnel for it, like at Everton or even Wolves last week. We had no wingers against Everton, for example, but Lampard decided to persist with 4-3-3 anyway and look what happened. 

Klopp rarely changes his system but his system has everyone in that Liverpool side firing and there's no real reason to change. Can the same be said about us? As for Guardiola, his main issue is that he overthinks things and changes the system for no good reason, even when he has all the players available to play his main one.

The Werner and Havertz situation is far from ideal but I think in Werner's situation playing wide has been more necessary than anything because none of the rest of our wide players can seem to stay fit for long periods and get a run in the team. I think the Everton and Wolves games highlighted that if he's not getting in behind and being forced wider and deeper for the ball then he becomes a far more ineffective player. I think long term he can and will play central in a 4-3-3 system. And if he had scored even 2 or 3 of the good chances he has had in recent weeks I don't think there would be a discussion about this, but his lack of goals is what is creating the topic of discussion. 

I think Havertz needs time in general to get used to the league, especially the pace of it and lack of time you get on the ball. His confidence and general fitness look shot since Covid. I think he can play in the number 8 role long term, as well as the number 10 role. The problem with switching to a 4-2-3-1 is we seem to experience a huge drop off defensively with a pivot compared to a holding midfielder.

For me Havertz was starting to come into his element just before Covid and seemed to have some good chemistry with Ziyech. Werner too I think if playing wide, benefits immensely from Ziyech's ability to pick his runs inside. I don't think we're quite at Hazard level reliance on Ziyech, but there's no doubt that currently he seems to knit our offensive game together and his natural confidence seems to rub off on players around him. 

I understand Lampard playing 4-3-3 during the Everton and Wolves games. In Everton's case, I think the team had been playing so well and were on such a good run of form that it made sense to still set up in the same formation that everyone had been used to playing, and the Wolves game made more sense with Pulisic returning. I think in both though what was probably more disappointing was that Lampard didn't change during the match. The Everton game in particular we had both Giroud and Abraham on towards the end but still seemed to be set up in a 4-3-3 with Tammy wide. Hopefully with players returning this becomes something of a moot point, but in the back of Lampard's mind you're right he probably does need to have an idea of an alternative system/set-up if something similar occurred again.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Superblue_1986 said:

The Werner and Havertz situation is far from ideal but I think in Werner's situation playing wide has been more necessary than anything because none of the rest of our wide players can seem to stay fit for long periods and get a run in the team. I think the Everton and Wolves games highlighted that if he's not getting in behind and being forced wider and deeper for the ball then he becomes a far more ineffective player. I think long term he can and will play central in a 4-3-3 system. And if he had scored even 2 or 3 of the good chances he has had in recent weeks I don't think there would be a discussion about this, but his lack of goals is what is creating the topic of discussion. 

Don't know about others but I've been saying from the very start, back in September, that Werner is being wasted out wide. Before anyone jumps the gun, am not making excuses for his misses and this has gotta do with how he is being used (TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!), Werner is having to spend an awful lot of energy in wide areas and not in areas where he can consistently hurt the opposition. We bought him for 50 million to be a striker, not to constantly track runners back on the flanks. If he doesn't score goals, then he doesn't contribute anything else from wide areas. Then that in turn just exposes him as a non-existent threat.

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I think Havertz needs time in general to get used to the league, especially the pace of it and lack of time you get on the ball. His confidence and general fitness look shot since Covid. I think he can play in the number 8 role long term, as well as the number 10 role. The problem with switching to a 4-2-3-1 is we seem to experience a huge drop off defensively with a pivot compared to a holding midfielder.

I assume we might switch to a 4-2-3-1 if/when we get better midfielders in but don't think we have played that formation yet with Mendy and Silva in the side? 

7 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

For me Havertz was starting to come into his element just before Covid and seemed to have some good chemistry with Ziyech. Werner too I think if playing wide, benefits immensely from Ziyech's ability to pick his runs inside. I don't think we're quite at Hazard level reliance on Ziyech, but there's no doubt that currently he seems to knit our offensive game together and his natural confidence seems to rub off on players around him. 

Havertz was still tentative at best. He hasn't dominated a match or really imposed himself on the opposition. And if we've got to rely on one player to make us thick going forward again, then we've got problems. Said it before and I'll say it again, the club didn't spend all that money in the summer just to see us rely on one player to make us look good.

10 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I understand Lampard playing 4-3-3 during the Everton and Wolves games. In Everton's case, I think the team had been playing so well and were on such a good run of form that it made sense to still set up in the same formation that everyone had been used to playing, and the Wolves game made more sense with Pulisic returning. I think in both though what was probably more disappointing was that Lampard didn't change during the match. The Everton game in particular we had both Giroud and Abraham on towards the end but still seemed to be set up in a 4-3-3 with Tammy wide. Hopefully with players returning this becomes something of a moot point, but in the back of Lampard's mind you're right he probably does need to have an idea of an alternative system/set-up if something similar occurred again.

Fine, I can still reluctantly accept going into the Everton game with 4-3-3 based on pre-game form but on the flip side, just like Werner, Havertz isn't a wide player. So, starting 4-3-3 then made little sense and it was further compounded by two things - (a) Havertz was disastrous and no one else turned up at Goodison and (b) as you pointed out, Lampard changed nothing at all then and in the Wolves game too. That is why I find it strange that Lampard went from changing too much to not even changing it all when required. We don't want to be in another situation where like Conte and Sarri before him, Lampard sticks with the same formation all the time even when it's not working. It's a good thing that he hasn't gone overboard with the changes this season but he also needs to learn that he should look to change things when it's not working. Needs to find that balance. 

[Fulham Broadway 16,393]

Am watching the game again seeing as Sky are rerunning it - second time around we do seem to be in control - albeit waiting for a counter attack. It seems pretty obvious we would have got our goals earlier had Werner been in the middle. But it is a dilemna for Frank with Giroud and Abraham vying for that spot

[Magic Lamps 11,450]

50 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Am watching the game again seeing as Sky are rerunning it - second time around we do seem to be in control - albeit waiting for a counter attack. It seems pretty obvious we would have got our goals earlier had Werner been in the middle. But it is a dilemna for Frank with Giroud and Abraham vying for that spot

All three have their place in the squad but I woudl rather see Werner coming on from the bench vs tired legs than him being played out of position.

[Jase 43,479]

Our record when Werner and Abraham have started together this season:

9 games

7 wins

2 draws

24 goals scored

[Fulham Broadway 16,393]

3 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

All three have their place in the squad but I woudl rather see Werner coming on from the bench vs tired legs than him being played out of position.

Sounds like a plan... when Odoi is back, him and Pulisic on the left and right, then Werner to replace Abraham/Giroud ion 60/70 minutes could result in quite a few late goals 

[pHaRaOn 2,131]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

Our record when Werner and Abraham have started together this season:

9 games

7 wins

2 draws

24 goals scored

And they contributed to more than half of these goals. 6 goals & 1 assist for Tammy and 4 goals & 2 assists for Timo.

[Tomo 21,681]

7 hours ago, Jason said:

cc @Tomo

He's never won any big away game I don't think (unless you count City's early Sheikh phase).

[Fulham Broadway 16,393]

21 minutes ago, Jason said:

Our record when Werner and Abraham have started together this season:

9 games

7 wins

2 draws

24 goals scored

Can only get better as well judging by the times they don't read each other sometimes

[DANILA 290]

Poor game tbh. Another match result concealing how poor we are. Like Frank LeBeouf said - happy with result, not so happy with performance.

[Jase 43,479]

8 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Can only get better as well judging by the times they don't read each other sometimes

The number of goals scored would have been higher had Werner not missed all those chances but alas. 😭

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, DANILA said:

Poor game tbh. Another match result concealing how poor we are. Like Frank LeBeouf said - happy with result, not so happy with performance.

Think it'll be hard to find a Chelsea fan who will be pleased with the performance. We were fortunate to win, never mind fortunate to win it 3-0!

[Fulham Broadway 16,393]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

The number of goals scored would have been higher had Werner not missed all those chances but alas. 😭

Yup and had Werner not thought that Abraham can sprint as fast. I swear he thinks Tammy can run as fast and Tammy thinks Werner is as tall for aerial balls

[Atomiswave 6,072]

Puli was good, Kova helped alot, Silva is just one composed mofo, Kante still has a sibling running with him on the field, Azpi actually was good all things considered, Mount was mount, Werner will come good im sure of it.

[Jase 43,479]

On 12/22/2020 at 6:21 AM, Patrick Bamford said:

 

Even Azpi got in on the act!