Kai Havertz

[Jase 43,479]

57 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

I can only speak about what he was good at in Bundesliga. There he was a good finisher, excellent aerial threat, master of simple dribbling, quick decision maker. Basically a direct output oriented attacking Allrounder. In Bundesliga he could have become anything l. Flick thinks of him as long term striker partner for Adeyemi. In PL, best I can think of is someone in the firmino mould. 

So, we paid 70 million for someone to just be another Firmino (someone who cost Liverpool only 30 million)?

57 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

he will never be as effective here as in a less physical league unless he puts On a good 10kgs of muscle. He just can’t keep hold of balls into space which is what he needs for his game. In fact he will remain a peripheral figure irrespective of his talent as long as he does not improve physically and also gets tougher mentally

For me, I think he's doing fine physically. He's been aggressive and shown more willingness to get into physical duels than say Lukaku, who is bigger and looks much more physical than him. It's just that Havertz doesn't quite do enough on the ball. Like when you see him on the ball, you don't really see him do anything WOW (like Hazard did) or say, play defence splitting passes etc. 

[Jase 43,479]

37 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I think the thing with our forwards is they are contributing to us in many ways (Kai aiding a more fluid system, Werner's pace and movement causing issues even when he's struggling, Mount's pressing and combination play, Callum's creativity). It kind of hit me the other day that with all of those above I've said at various times (paraphrasing) "I don't care (about the fact they ain't yet scoring machines) because they give a lot to the team" but ofcourse it becomes an issue when it's all of them. So basically if we had a Salah/Lampard in this side we probably wouldn't be batting an eyelid about the statistics side (Duff and Robben weren't exactly elite goalscorer for us but we raved over them regardless, in this team they would probably be scrutinised more as they won't have Lampard picking up the slack for them).

It sounds simple and obvious but we need one to evolve into a reliable scorer, hopefully the last few games is a sign Mount is turning into said player.

The thing is, those players didn't cost as much as Havertz did (some of them cost nothing) and they haven't been touted as the next best thing. So while Havertz contributes to the system in general, I also don't think it's crazy to expect more out of him and question what exactly is he good at. And I'm not just asking this about him because we don't have a reliable goalscorer.

[Pizy 18,850]

His use of his large frame is so inconsistent. That’s what’s frustrating. There are some games where he shields the ball well and others like today where CB’s just repeatedly toss him aside.

Similarly to his fellow German he plays like too much of a passive nice guy. He doesn’t have that switch to flip where he can become an aggressive bully.

I think he is also sort of a victim of the personnel around him. Much as I love Mason, I think Kai would look much better and his numbers would significantly improve if he played in front of a classic #10 who does the creative bits for him. He’s at his most dangerous when he’s getting on the end of things and finishing instinctively. When he has to receive the ball and create for himself his feet aren’t really quick enough and his long range shooting is nonexistent. 
 

If we played with a #10 that had amazing through balls and creativity like De Bruyne or Bruno Fernandes I think Kai’s numbers would be amazing. As much work as Mase does for the team he doesn’t really have a link with any of our other attackers.

[Tomo 21,751]

9 minutes ago, Jase said:

The thing is, those players didn't cost as much as Havertz did (some of them cost nothing) and they haven't been touted as the next best thing. So while Havertz contributes to the system in general, I also don't think it's crazy to expect more out of him and question what exactly is he good at. And I'm not just asking this about him because we don't have a reliable goalscorer.

While I do get the cost argument I genuinely couldn't give a shit about his stat padding aspect if the team becomes successful with him at F9 (which I believe it can).

Watching him for Bayer I instantly said he'll be a perfect Firmino succesor for Liverpool, if he becomes that for us I won't be complaining.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

While I do get the cost argument I genuinely couldn't give a shit about his stat padding aspect if the team becomes successful with him at F9 (which I believe it can).

Watching him for Bayer I instantly said he'll be a perfect Firmino succesor for Liverpool, if he becomes that for us I won't be complaining.

It's not just the cost argument. It's also the fact that his talent has been hyped up by people, the media in Germany. So again, pardon me if I'm expecting more out of him. 

Also, you said all of that while we still have one big elephant in the room yet to be addressed. 

[LAM09 7,043]

1 hour ago, Magic Lamps said:

I can only speak about what he was good at in Bundesliga. There he was a good finisher, excellent aerial threat, master of simple dribbling, quick decision maker. Basically a direct output oriented attacking Allrounder. In Bundesliga he could have become anything l. Flick thinks of him as long term striker partner for Adeyemi. In PL, best I can think of is someone in the firmino mould. 

It seems like the jump from the Bundesliga to the Premiership is one a number of attackers can't make or struggle to do so. Dzeko is the only one that has managed to bring his form over with him in recent years. 

[NikkiCFC 8,286]

Play 4231 with him as AM and build team around him. He played in this role just 5 games last season early on and it was very promising. 

Krasnodar, WBA, Palace, Southampton and Barnsley. 

In these 5 games we scored 20 goals with him having 4g 3a. 

After that he got Covid, Lampard changed formation and the rest is history. 

 

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, Jase said:

It's not just the cost argument. It's also the fact that his talent has been hyped up by people, the media in Germany. So again, pardon me if I'm expecting more out of him. 

Also, you said all of that while we still have one big elephant in the room yet to be addressed. 

Yes which is kind of the point I was making. As much as one attacker has a "goal" breakthrough all of a sudden we can enjoy what the others bring more than stressing about their goal stats. For context Kai's goal record for us is better than Robben's? (13 in 66 vs 19 in 106) Did we ever get worked up about the latters goal record? No, guess why?

I'd like to think the players I named are too talented for atleast one not to have a breakthrough period goal wise sooner rather than later, like I said hopefully Mount's recent burst is such.

[Jase 43,479]

12 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Yes which is kind of the point I was making. As much as one attacker has a "goal" breakthrough all of a sudden we can enjoy what the others bring more than stressing about their goal stats. For context Kai's goal record for us is better than Robben's? (13 in 66 vs 19 in 106) Did we ever get worked up about the latters goal record? No, guess why?

I'd like to think the players I named are too talented for atleast one not to have a breakthrough period goal wise sooner rather than later, like I said hopefully Mount's recent burst is such.

Am questioning more on what Havertz is good at exactly. Surely, there's more than just keeping the flow going for someone that cost 70 million and called a generational talent? And for all the comparison with Firmino, even he has produced a decent amount of goals and assists each season. 

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

On 11/12/2021 at 19:29, Jase said:

I have a question here - what exactly does Havertz specialize in?

Yes, he is more refined than Werner or Lukaku. Yes, he helps the team to keep the flow going when leading the line. But what are the things is he exactly good at? Is he good at creating chances? Is he good at scoring? What things exactly?

I don't think I'm crazy to expect that he can/should be doing more(?), given we paid 70 million and the fact that he's called a generational talent. They are different players but we bought Hazard for half of that price and some probably called him a generational talent and he always brought the numbers as well as the x-factor. But Havertz? 

I mean, if we're judging Werner/Lukaku on their goal output, then shouldn't it be the same/similar with Havertz since he's leading the line? If not, what?

Was just looking up some stats and Havertz has produced only 6 goals and 4 assists (excluding PKs won) in 41 league games. On top of that, his league xA is only 2.3 (Werner's league xA is 6.3 for example). All this low output kinda pales in comparison to what he produced in the Bundesliga. 

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

[Tomo 21,751]

46 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

West Ham if anything was further proof we play better with him there. We weren't incredible by any means but we totally lost our shape both on and off the ball when he went off.

[King Kante 1,643]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

I disagree, Kai is actually working incredibly hard off the ball and working the CB's by moving them about. I think he is one of those players that people who have to watch on TV and look at stats don't really understand as a lot of what he does isn't seen as so much of it is off the ball and isn't easily measurable. 

As you acknowledge, we play a lot better with him in the side and it really isn't a coincidence that is the case; however, equally, it is understandable why people question what he does well, which I would say is his reading of the game, off the ball movement and link play. 

For me, I am very happy with him this season, he has developed from lasg season and has also started to man up more when it comes to contact. This shouldn't be lost as he is is still barely a man at 21 and isn't ever going to be a target man due to his frame and build. 

Obviously, his finishing is a bit of an issue as he has habit of always going for a finesse shot, rather than just putting his foot through the ball, however I am confident this will come as he is now settling into the F9 role after being moved around quite a bit positionally and is still young.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

3 hours ago, Tomo said:

West Ham if anything was further proof we play better with him there. We weren't incredible by any means but we totally lost our shape both on and off the ball when he went off.

I felt that he didn’t really affect the game enough though. Their CBs seemed to deal with him pretty well throughout whenever he tried to get behind them or away from them in and around the box. Granted, he did have 2 half chances/reasonable chances I think (sidenetting one and a header) but he didn’t really pose a big enough threat, was really only when he was drifting out in the wider areas or coming off their back line that he seemed to contribute towards the game more and got a bit more joy and more touches. 

11 minutes ago, King Kante said:

I disagree, Kai is actually working incredibly hard off the ball and working the CB's by moving them about. I think he is one of those players that people who have to watch on TV and look at stats don't really understand as a lot of what he does isn't seen as so much of it is off the ball and isn't easily measurable. 

As you acknowledge, we play a lot better with him in the side and it really isn't a coincidence that is the case; however, equally, it is understandable why people question what he does well, which I would say is his reading of the game, off the ball movement and link play. 

For me, I am very happy with him this season, he has developed from lasg season and has also started to man up more when it comes to contact. This shouldn't be lost as he is is still barely a man at 21 and isn't ever going to be a target man due to his frame and build. 

Obviously, his finishing is a bit of an issue as he has habit of always going for a finesse shot, rather than just putting his foot through the ball, however I am confident this will come as he is now settling into the F9 role after being moved around quite a bit positionally and is still young.

I will admit physically he looks a bit sturdier than last season (although it was hugely infuriating how lightweight he seemed last season so that always has to improve either way) but he still has huge tendencies to give the ball away very easily, happens when going to dribble (gettijg caught under his feet) and if your going to play as a false 9, in the box you have to make the difference in one way or another.

Firmino is the perfect example, I know he went on a goal drought last season but even then his link up play, touches in around the boxes, movement, everything is always crisp, always done for a reason and always noticeable. Maybe having the Mane’s and Salah’s is better for him but theres also just much more of a consistency and threat with him. 

The stuff outside the box helps the play, granted but between the goalposts/in the box he has to be more, even if he’s playing as a false 9 or not. Be it touches in and around the centre of the box, making clever runs, getting goals/assists/key passes. We can’t hide away from that he seems to drift in and out of phases where some weeks he contributes more and then some he does next to nothing unfortunately.

I did also allude that he is still younger than the others who are older, more experienced, have achieved more throughout their careers who really aren’t contributing. But the fee, the  hype, the expectation, its always going to be there.

[NikkiCFC 8,286]

I am still waiting for modern Cruyff to be released... 

[King Kante 1,643]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

I felt that he didn’t really affect the game enough though. Their CBs seemed to deal with him pretty well throughout whenever he tried to get behind them or away from them in and around the box. Granted, he did have 2 half chances/reasonable chances I think (sidenetting one and a header) but he didn’t really pose a big enough threat, was really only when he was drifting out in the wider areas or coming off their back line that he seemed to contribute towards the game more and got a bit more joy and more touches. 

I will admit physically he looks a bit sturdier than last season (although it was hugely infuriating how lightweight he seemed last season so that always has to improve either way) but he still has huge tendencies to give the ball away very easily, happens when going to dribble (gettijg caught under his feet) and if your going to play as a false 9, in the box you have to make the difference in one way or another.

Firmino is the perfect example, I know he went on a goal drought last season but even then his link up play, touches in around the boxes, movement, everything is always crisp, always done for a reason and always noticeable. Maybe having the Mane’s and Salah’s is better for him but theres also just much more of a consistency and threat with him. 

The stuff outside the box helps the play, granted but between the goalposts/in the box he has to be more, even if he’s playing as a false 9 or not. Be it touches in and around the centre of the box, making clever runs, getting goals/assists/key passes. We can’t hide away from that he seems to drift in and out of phases where some weeks he contributes more and then some he does next to nothing unfortunately.

I did also allude that he is still younger than the others who are older, more experienced, have achieved more throughout their careers who really aren’t contributing. But the fee, the  hype, the expectation, its always going to be there.

Again, I don't think this is fair. You say that they dealt with him, and to an extent they did with him on the ball. However, what you're missing is that they couldn't step out properly with him on the pitch as he was closing them down too quickly and his movement was opening space up for the others'. The one time they did step up, we whacked them the counter with Mount's goal. 

Compare that to what happened in the second half when the statue that is Lukaku played, they stepped 10-15 yards up the pitch and started getting the balls into midfield a lot quicker. That game was really a good example of how effective he is at making the CB's sit back to avoid him running in and around them compared to Lukaku who allowed them to move right up the pitch. 

Sorry, but the fee and hype aren't really mitigating factors to the fact the kid is 21. How many CF's/F9's are providing consistent performances twice a week at elite level? You can argue Häland and that kid for Florence, but Häland is one of people like Rooney who had a man's body from about 16/17 and they both play in less intense and defensively weaker leagues. 

Additionally, I wouldn't say he has done nothing in many games this season, as when on the pitch he is forcing the CB's back. Does he still have things to improve in his game, for sure, however is he by far and away our best option at No.9 and doing incredibly well for a 21 year old with 15 months of PL experience, most certainly. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by King Kante