Kai Havertz

[OneMoSalah 8,766]

On 11/12/2021 at 19:29, Jase said:

I have a question here - what exactly does Havertz specialize in?

Yes, he is more refined than Werner or Lukaku. Yes, he helps the team to keep the flow going when leading the line. But what are the things is he exactly good at? Is he good at creating chances? Is he good at scoring? What things exactly?

I don't think I'm crazy to expect that he can/should be doing more(?), given we paid 70 million and the fact that he's called a generational talent. They are different players but we bought Hazard for half of that price and some probably called him a generational talent and he always brought the numbers as well as the x-factor. But Havertz? 

I mean, if we're judging Werner/Lukaku on their goal output, then shouldn't it be the same/similar with Havertz since he's leading the line? If not, what?

Was just looking up some stats and Havertz has produced only 6 goals and 4 assists (excluding PKs won) in 41 league games. On top of that, his league xA is only 2.3 (Werner's league xA is 6.3 for example). All this low output kinda pales in comparison to what he produced in the Bundesliga. 

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

[Tomo 21,733]

46 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

West Ham if anything was further proof we play better with him there. We weren't incredible by any means but we totally lost our shape both on and off the ball when he went off.

[King Kante 1,473]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

I disagree, Kai is actually working incredibly hard off the ball and working the CB's by moving them about. I think he is one of those players that people who have to watch on TV and look at stats don't really understand as a lot of what he does isn't seen as so much of it is off the ball and isn't easily measurable. 

As you acknowledge, we play a lot better with him in the side and it really isn't a coincidence that is the case; however, equally, it is understandable why people question what he does well, which I would say is his reading of the game, off the ball movement and link play. 

For me, I am very happy with him this season, he has developed from lasg season and has also started to man up more when it comes to contact. This shouldn't be lost as he is is still barely a man at 21 and isn't ever going to be a target man due to his frame and build. 

Obviously, his finishing is a bit of an issue as he has habit of always going for a finesse shot, rather than just putting his foot through the ball, however I am confident this will come as he is now settling into the F9 role after being moved around quite a bit positionally and is still young.

[OneMoSalah 8,766]

3 hours ago, Tomo said:

West Ham if anything was further proof we play better with him there. We weren't incredible by any means but we totally lost our shape both on and off the ball when he went off.

I felt that he didn’t really affect the game enough though. Their CBs seemed to deal with him pretty well throughout whenever he tried to get behind them or away from them in and around the box. Granted, he did have 2 half chances/reasonable chances I think (sidenetting one and a header) but he didn’t really pose a big enough threat, was really only when he was drifting out in the wider areas or coming off their back line that he seemed to contribute towards the game more and got a bit more joy and more touches. 

11 minutes ago, King Kante said:

I disagree, Kai is actually working incredibly hard off the ball and working the CB's by moving them about. I think he is one of those players that people who have to watch on TV and look at stats don't really understand as a lot of what he does isn't seen as so much of it is off the ball and isn't easily measurable. 

As you acknowledge, we play a lot better with him in the side and it really isn't a coincidence that is the case; however, equally, it is understandable why people question what he does well, which I would say is his reading of the game, off the ball movement and link play. 

For me, I am very happy with him this season, he has developed from lasg season and has also started to man up more when it comes to contact. This shouldn't be lost as he is is still barely a man at 21 and isn't ever going to be a target man due to his frame and build. 

Obviously, his finishing is a bit of an issue as he has habit of always going for a finesse shot, rather than just putting his foot through the ball, however I am confident this will come as he is now settling into the F9 role after being moved around quite a bit positionally and is still young.

I will admit physically he looks a bit sturdier than last season (although it was hugely infuriating how lightweight he seemed last season so that always has to improve either way) but he still has huge tendencies to give the ball away very easily, happens when going to dribble (gettijg caught under his feet) and if your going to play as a false 9, in the box you have to make the difference in one way or another.

Firmino is the perfect example, I know he went on a goal drought last season but even then his link up play, touches in around the boxes, movement, everything is always crisp, always done for a reason and always noticeable. Maybe having the Mane’s and Salah’s is better for him but theres also just much more of a consistency and threat with him. 

The stuff outside the box helps the play, granted but between the goalposts/in the box he has to be more, even if he’s playing as a false 9 or not. Be it touches in and around the centre of the box, making clever runs, getting goals/assists/key passes. We can’t hide away from that he seems to drift in and out of phases where some weeks he contributes more and then some he does next to nothing unfortunately.

I did also allude that he is still younger than the others who are older, more experienced, have achieved more throughout their careers who really aren’t contributing. But the fee, the  hype, the expectation, its always going to be there.

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

I am still waiting for modern Cruyff to be released... 

[King Kante 1,473]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

I felt that he didn’t really affect the game enough though. Their CBs seemed to deal with him pretty well throughout whenever he tried to get behind them or away from them in and around the box. Granted, he did have 2 half chances/reasonable chances I think (sidenetting one and a header) but he didn’t really pose a big enough threat, was really only when he was drifting out in the wider areas or coming off their back line that he seemed to contribute towards the game more and got a bit more joy and more touches. 

I will admit physically he looks a bit sturdier than last season (although it was hugely infuriating how lightweight he seemed last season so that always has to improve either way) but he still has huge tendencies to give the ball away very easily, happens when going to dribble (gettijg caught under his feet) and if your going to play as a false 9, in the box you have to make the difference in one way or another.

Firmino is the perfect example, I know he went on a goal drought last season but even then his link up play, touches in around the boxes, movement, everything is always crisp, always done for a reason and always noticeable. Maybe having the Mane’s and Salah’s is better for him but theres also just much more of a consistency and threat with him. 

The stuff outside the box helps the play, granted but between the goalposts/in the box he has to be more, even if he’s playing as a false 9 or not. Be it touches in and around the centre of the box, making clever runs, getting goals/assists/key passes. We can’t hide away from that he seems to drift in and out of phases where some weeks he contributes more and then some he does next to nothing unfortunately.

I did also allude that he is still younger than the others who are older, more experienced, have achieved more throughout their careers who really aren’t contributing. But the fee, the  hype, the expectation, its always going to be there.

Again, I don't think this is fair. You say that they dealt with him, and to an extent they did with him on the ball. However, what you're missing is that they couldn't step out properly with him on the pitch as he was closing them down too quickly and his movement was opening space up for the others'. The one time they did step up, we whacked them the counter with Mount's goal. 

Compare that to what happened in the second half when the statue that is Lukaku played, they stepped 10-15 yards up the pitch and started getting the balls into midfield a lot quicker. That game was really a good example of how effective he is at making the CB's sit back to avoid him running in and around them compared to Lukaku who allowed them to move right up the pitch. 

Sorry, but the fee and hype aren't really mitigating factors to the fact the kid is 21. How many CF's/F9's are providing consistent performances twice a week at elite level? You can argue Häland and that kid for Florence, but Häland is one of people like Rooney who had a man's body from about 16/17 and they both play in less intense and defensively weaker leagues. 

Additionally, I wouldn't say he has done nothing in many games this season, as when on the pitch he is forcing the CB's back. Does he still have things to improve in his game, for sure, however is he by far and away our best option at No.9 and doing incredibly well for a 21 year old with 15 months of PL experience, most certainly. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by King Kante

[Jase 43,479]

On 15/12/2021 at 01:18, OneMoSalah said:

I do agree.

He’s still hard to pigeon hole as in is he a false 9? Does he need to play as an actual 10? Will he score/assist enough to be playing as a false 9? Does he need to play with other players who can score X amount of goals to compensate for him not being that player? 

18 months later its still difficult to answer those questions but he’s still young enough to maybe be given the benefit of the doubt - which is maybe why he won’t get the same sort of treatment Timo/Rom/Hakim all get on numbers/performances because their older and much more established players who should coming up to or be in their prime years.

The general opinion is we play better when he plays (last season yes 100% with TT - this season its been mixed results) but recently, against Leeds, West Ham, Watford and even Malmo, when he’s started as a false 9, he has been very ineffective majority of the time. Even against Leicester, he did do bits in phases of the game but I think he maybe was let off because as a team it was such a good and complete performance so he maybe got away with a bit, although for some that could be seen as harsh.

Dude, Havertz has been playing football for years. He hasn't just turned up last weekend and still trying to figure out what are the things he is really good at. This is someone who has been called a generational talent and even tipped by some to win the Ballon d'Or in the future.

Regardless of whether Werner, Lukaku etc are older and much more established, people are supposedly holding them to high standards and if that's gonna be the case, then the same should be applied for Havertz as well.

At the moment, he is looking like a 70 million aka expensive jack of all trades, master of none. 

[Jase 43,479]

On 15/12/2021 at 02:05, Tomo said:

West Ham if anything was further proof we play better with him there. We weren't incredible by any means but we totally lost our shape both on and off the ball when he went off.

If only because the replacement was not good for a variety of reasons.

Said it before that I don't think we necessarily need a #9 to thrive but at the same time, I also did say there are many ways to skin a cat. At the moment, if we could find a consistent goal scorer and someone who also fits the system, then that person would easily replace Havertz upfront. 

[chelsea_4_eva 1,157]

If he does have covid, hopefully it wont be too bad because when he had it the first time it was pretty rough on him.

[NikkiCFC 7,925]

Crazy that he scored in CL final only not to start against them this season in both games. Also scored against Liverpool and Spurs lately only to be dropped completely after. 

Not to mention he plays out of the position. So frustrating to kill his talent. 

[King Kante 1,473]

On 15/01/2022 at 17:36, NikkiCFC said:

Crazy that he scored in CL final only not to start against them this season in both games. Also scored against Liverpool and Spurs lately only to be dropped completely after. 

Not to mention he plays out of the position. So frustrating to kill his talent. 

It is complete and utter madness when you consider that the reason is principally due to having to shoehorn Lukaku into the team. 

[Jase 43,479]

Have asked this before but I'll just ask again, what the hell is Havertz good at? 

Played the full 90 today and again, all I saw was him just showing good touches and then passing the ball 5-10 yards to someone else. Didn't see him try to take players on or play killer passes or do something decisive. Like is he really a generational talent that many seem to speak of? Even someone like Ziyech looks he has more purpose and danger about him (at least of late) whenever he gets the ball. 

Then again, maybe he also needs to go elsewhere to thrive as opposed to being caught up in whatever nonsense Tuchel is trying to do in attack. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,291]

2 minutes ago, Jase said:

Then again, maybe he also needs to go elsewhere to thrive as opposed to being caught up in whatever nonsense Tuchel is trying to do in attack. 

No attacker is striving because of Tuchel and more importantly, his shoehorning of Lukaku which in itself pushes Mount and Havertz further wider considering Lukaku whores the central spot without moving. 

[King Kante 1,473]

Just now, Jase said:

Have asked this before but I'll just ask again, what the hell is Havertz good at? 

Played the full 90 today and again, all I saw was him just showing good touches and then passing the ball 5-10 yards to someone else. Didn't see him try to take players on or play killer passes or do something decisive. Like is he really a generational talent that many seem to speak of? Even someone like Ziyech looks he has more purpose and danger about him (at least of late) whenever he gets the ball. 

Then again, maybe he also needs to go elsewhere to thrive as opposed to being caught up in whatever nonsense Tuchel is trying to do in attack. 

The problem is Lukaku. Last season, and in the parts he didn't play this season, the attack looked pretty fluid. With him in the side everyone is on their heels as he has the movement of a statue. 

As for Harvetz, his best quality is his off the ball movement which allows him to pull people about. The problem is that he needs to play either F9 (which he cannot with Lukaku in the team) or No.10, which we don't play. 

Essentially he is our Firmino in that he is a player that doesn't get great stats, but improves everyone around him when he is played in his correct position.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, King Kante said:

As for Harvetz, his best quality is his off the ball movement which allows him to pull people about. The problem is that he needs to play either F9 (which he cannot with Lukaku in the team) or No.10, which we don't play. 

Essentially he is our Firmino in that he is a player that doesn't get great stats, but improves everyone around him when he is played in his correct position.

Even if Havertz plays as the False 9, I'd be asking the same thing. Am sure we didn't spend 70 million on a supposedly generational talent to just show good touches, pass the ball 5-10 yards and make others better. 

As for the comparison with Firmino, he didn't cost Liverpool 70 million and wasn't called a generational talent. On top of that, he also has a better end product than Havertz. I'll concede the assist part considering we can't score to save our lives but Havertz himself isn't clinical when it comes to converting chances either.

[King Kante 1,473]

35 minutes ago, Jase said:

Even if Havertz plays as the False 9, I'd be asking the same thing. Am sure we didn't spend 70 million on a supposedly generational talent to just show good touches, pass the ball 5-10 yards and make others better. 

As for the comparison with Firmino, he didn't cost Liverpool 70 million and wasn't called a generational talent. On top of that, he also has a better end product than Havertz. I'll concede the assist part considering we can't score to save our lives but Havertz himself isn't clinical when it comes to converting chances either.

Well, yes and no. One thing to consider with Harvetz is his age so you have to be patient with him, second is that a lot of what he does isn't easily measured or even noticeable at times so you can't always say 'omg, look at that'. A good example of this was West Ham away where his movement was occupying the two CB's which allowed us to create a number of chances and freed up space for the AM's, whereas in the second half Lukaku's statuesque performance allowed them to step 10 yards up the pitch to pile the pressure on. Last season in The CL final against City compared to this seasons performances is another good example. 

As for 'generational talent' talk, that is just Twitter nonsense. If you are prone to listening to that sort of thing (I don't think you are) too much you end up thinking someone like Lukaku is a monster. 

[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, King Kante said:

Well, yes and no. One thing to consider with Harvetz is his age so you have to be patient with him, second is that a lot of what he does isn't easily measured or even noticeable at times so you can't always say 'omg, look at that'. A good example of this was West Ham away where his movement was occupying the two CB's which allowed us to create a number of chances and freed up space for the AM's, whereas in the second half Lukaku's statuesque performance allowed them to step 10 yards up the pitch to pile the pressure on. Last season in The CL final against City compared to this seasons performances is another good example. 

As for 'generational talent' talk, that is just Twitter nonsense. If you are prone to listening to that sort of thing (I don't think you are) too much you end up thinking someone like Lukaku is a monster. 

I can assure you, it's not Twitter nonsense in regards to the generational talent talk. And given he cost us 70 million that wasn't due to something like a release clause, only normal to demand from him. 

[King Kante 1,473]

5 minutes ago, Jase said:

I can assure you, it's not Twitter nonsense in regards to the generational talent talk. And given he cost us 70 million that wasn't due to something like a release clause, only normal to demand from him. 

Well, all I can say, is from where I stand, I have been fairly happy with Kai and prior to having him dropped for Lukaku, I felt he was very much proving his worth and showing improvement. 

In regard to 'generational' talk, I try to avoid that sort of thing but I do find (in my personal experience) it stems principally from social media and then repeated in the print media. 

As for the fee, yes it was expensive but that is the kind of fee all clubs have to pay for a talented 20 year old. Was he worth it based on his skill set when we brought him? No probably not, however he is still at an age where we can hope he continues to improve and he is also someone with resale value if he doesn't completely fulfil his potential.