🇩🇪 Kai Havertz

[Jase 43,479]

15 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I don't feel we'd be after him with thoughts on him playing up top when we have Tammy and just extended Giroud. Maybe if Frank permenantly switches to a 2 striker system, I guess.

Switching to a 2 striker system makes no sense, especially when we're loaded with midfielders and apart from Atletico, no other top teams play 4-4-2 anymore. Midfield control is absolutely vital.

[Pizy 18,909]

9 minutes ago, Jason said:

Switching to a 2 striker system makes no sense, especially when we're loaded with midfielders and apart from Atletico, no other top teams play 4-4-2 anymore. Midfield control is absolutely vital.

Which is why buying Havertz as a striker makes no sense. Spending £80m or more on someone who isn't a natural CF is nonsensical. He'd be an advanced midfielder who plays behind the target man making late runs and scoring lots of goals. Basically doing the same kinds of things Lamps did when he played.

----------------------Tammy-------------------

Werner------------Havertz-------------Ziyech

Thats how I think we'd set up if we signed him with Havertz and Ziyech interchanging at will basically and Havertz getting into the box as much as possible. That could be an attack rivaling Liverpool & City.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Pizy said:

Which is why buying Havertz as a striker makes no sense. Spending £80m or more on someone who isn't a natural CF is nonsensical. He'd be an advanced midfielder who plays behind the target man making late runs and scoring lots of goals. Basically doing the same kinds of things Lamps did when he played.

----------------------Tammy-------------------

Werner------------Havertz-------------Ziyech

Thats how I think we'd set up if we signed him with Havertz and Ziyech interchanging at will basically and Havertz getting into the box as much as possible. That could be an attack rivaling Liverpool & City.

Am loving the assumption that people think Abraham would remain the first choice ST by the way.   

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, Pizy said:

I don't think there's any chance we'd deploy him as a CF. I think he'd be competing with Mason as the #10. A midfielder who is always high up the pitch and around the box to hunt the ball.

He was half as good playing CM/CAM compared to ST, would be a criminal waste if he was signed to be a midfielder, not only in terms of his game but we are massively stacked in that position.

[Tomo 21,751]

40 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I don't feel we'd be after him with thoughts on him playing up top when we have Tammy and just extended Giroud. Maybe if Frank permenantly switches to a 2 striker system, I guess.

Oli resigning was extra security for both parties, he could still be gone this summer.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Tomo said:

Oli resigning was extra security for both parties, he could still be gone this summer.

Unlikely if his most recent comments are anything to go by.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/19/chelsea-olivier-giroud-my-body-is-ready-to-play-a-few-more-years-at-the-best-level

[Tomo 21,751]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

Unlikely if his most recent comments are anything to go by.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/19/chelsea-olivier-giroud-my-body-is-ready-to-play-a-few-more-years-at-the-best-level

Ofcourse but that's always been conditional to game time, that's the most important thing to him, he crossed a rival divide for that reason and came within touching distance of doing it again.

The contract first and foremost was to prevent us from losing a(nother) player in the run in while giving Giroud a guaranteed years income during such uncertain times.

[Pizy 18,909]

13 minutes ago, Tomo said:

He was half as good playing CM/CAM compared to ST, would be a criminal waste if he was signed to be a midfielder, not only in terms of his game but we are massively stacked in that position.

I've said since we were initially linked with him that we'd surely have to sell someone (Barkley) for this move to make any sense. That's why I won't get my hopes up that anything will come of this interest.

 

[Jase 43,479]

10 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Ofcourse but that's always been conditional to game time, that's the most important thing to him, he crossed a rival divide for that reason and came within touching distance of doing it again.

The contract first and foremost was to prevent us from losing a(nother) player in the run in while giving Giroud a guaranteed years income during such uncertain times.

I get that but Giroud also gives us a different option upfront, providing us something different from Abraham, Werner or even Havertz. 

For the sake of argument, if we do sell Giroud and get Havertz, how then are you gonna juggle game time without hurting their development between Abraham, Havertz and maybe even Werner upfront?

Here is the thing I find it ironic, we are all into youth this season and happy for them to play and help us get back to where we want. But now that we can buy again, people want us to go buy, buy and buy every player possible out there, even when we don't necessarily need to, at the risk of hurting the development of those young players. Why? Do people just not care about ensuring we have a balanced team? Or do people just want to stack our team for the heck of it? 

[Jase 43,479]

One thing I would also say that Lampard likes or wants the players to press and work hard off the ball. If Havertz isn't good at defending or his off the ball work isn't good, as @killer1257 alluded to, then he better produce Hazard-esque level performances to get a free pass to be in the XI, if he were to join us. 

[Pizy 18,909]

So you guys really look at Havertz's YouTube highlights and see a CF? Because I absolutely don't. I see instance after instance of him carrying the ball from the middle of the pitch, dribbling past players, shielding it with his considerable size, bursting into the box, and scoring while arriving late.

He looks to me like a hybrid #8/#10. Similar to Pogba or Yaya Toure. Kills you in that area between the halfway line and the edge of the box.

[Tomo 21,751]

Just now, Jason said:

I get that but Giroud also gives up a different option upfront, providing us something different from Abraham, Werner or even Havertz. 

For the sake of argument, if we do sell Giroud and get Havertz, how then are you gonna juggle game time without hurting their development between Abraham, Havertz and maybe even Werner upfront?

Here is the thing I find it ironic, we are all into youth this season and happy for them to play and help us get back to where we want. But now that we can buy again, people want us to go buy, buy and buy every player possible out there, even when we don't necessarily need to, at the risk of hurting the development of those young players. Why? Do people just not care about ensuring we have a balanced team? Or do people just want to stack our team for the heck of it? 

I think most people want a balance between the two (star signing's and youth promotion), that's how Liverpool have become what they are. 

Furthermore, if Havertz did end up signing and my hunch of him being CF is correct the only academy lad that is affected in terms of game time is Abraham, who the majority don't even think is good enough to be the main man and see him as a rotation player. To add even further not all our lads have to be bonafide starters, some horses for courses Darren Fletcher esque types are perfectly fine too and will allow us to focus on star signings in the market over squad fillers.

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, Tomo said:

I think most people want a balance between the two (star signing's and youth promotion), that's how Liverpool have become what they are. 

Youth promotion? Liverpool? Pretty sure TAA is the only one from their academy who is playing consistently in the first team right now. The rest are on the fringes at best. And they wanted to sign Werner before this pandemic happened.

2 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Furthermore, if Havertz did end up signing and my hunch of him being CF is correct the only academy lad that is affected in terms of game time is Abraham, who the majority don't even think is good enough to be the main man and see him as a rotation player. To add even further not all our lads have to be bonafide starters, some horses for courses Darren Fletcher esque types are perfectly fine too and will allow us to focus on star signings in the market over squad fillers.

But what people think of Abraham doesn't matter here, does it? Lampard seems to be happy with him and his comments earlier suggested that Werner may compete with him for that ST position. Plus, if we're gonna spend 80-100 million on a player, there's no way we would be rotating him with someone else. He would be in the starting XI more often than not. 

[Tomo 21,751]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Youth promotion? Liverpool? Pretty sure TAA is the only one from their academy who is playing consistently in the first team right now. The rest are on the fringes at best. And they wanted to sign Werner before this pandemic happened.

Joe Gomes too. The main reason they're where they are is their defense, which is a combo of big money and youth (and Robertson).

[Jase 43,479]

8 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Joe Gomes too. The main reason they're where they are is their defense, which is a combo of big money and youth (and Robertson).

Liverpool got Joe Gomez from Charlton. And IIRC, he doesn’t play every game either. 

[Tomo 21,751]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Liverpool got Joe Gomez from Charlton. And IIRC, he doesn’t play every game either. 

He has injury issues but is always picked when fit. Didn't he arrive really young though? I tend to class players as a academy player if they play for the club at development level.

[King Kante 1,643]

42 minutes ago, Pizy said:

So you guys really look at Havertz's YouTube highlights and see a CF? Because I absolutely don't. I see instance after instance of him carrying the ball from the middle of the pitch, dribbling past players, shielding it with his considerable size, bursting into the box, and scoring while arriving late.

He looks to me like a hybrid #8/#10. Similar to Pogba or Yaya Toure. Kills you in that area between the halfway line and the edge of the box.

I agree. I also find it mystifying that Harvetz has only been playing CF because of an injury but everyone seems to think he is a CF. 

I have said it before but if he came in he would play as an No.8/No.10 so would either be in the middle three in a 433 or in the hole in a 4231. The problem however is that to a degree Barkley, Mount and RLC also all play that role. In my opinion, for Harvetz to happen we would have to sell Barkley and Mount or Harvetz would probably have to transition to a No.6; which I think is possible as Mount did play No6, while when Harvetz first broke in at 17 he was playing further back as a sort of No6/No8. 

[Tomo 21,751]

2 minutes ago, King Kante said:

I agree. I also find it mystifying that Harvetz has only been playing CF because of an injury but everyone seems to think he is a CF. 

Thierry Henry was initially a winger but circumstances gave him a shot up front and the rest is history. Whether by accident or design is largely irrelevant, the point is he's gone up a gear since playing there.

Anyway i don't think this will be our problem, i pray he doesn't end up at Liverpool as he's the perfect Firmino successor. 

[Pizy 18,909]

18 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Thierry Henry was initially a winger but circumstances gave him a shot up front and the rest is history. Whether by accident or design is largely irrelevant, the point is he's gone up a gear since playing there.

Anyway i don't think this will be our problem, i pray he doesn't end up at Liverpool as he's the perfect Firmino successor. 

Luckily, they'd probably have to sell one of Mané or Salah to afford him. I hope...

[Clockwork 1,794]

More or less Havertz seems very similar to Firmino.