🇩🇪 Timo Werner

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, killer1257 said:

Hahaha, Comparing prime Torres with Timo Werner.

Prime Torres was one of the fastest and most gifted technical players I have seen my whole life. His finishing, his dribbling and his pace was insane. Injuries fucked him up and that is why I never wanted him at Chelsea

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He wasn't that technically gifted, if he was he wouldn't have declined that badly. David Villa was a much better all round player and that came to the fore almost every time they played together for Spain even when Nando at his absolute peak.

His main attributes that gave him that crucial one second advantage over many defenders were his acceleration and his underrated upper body strength (for reference see how he knocked over Ferdinand to score at Anfield against Man.United). As soon as injuries took them away he was reliant on his technical game and tactical mind and as we all know, neither were good enough. 

I don't 100% agree with @OhForAGreavsieas I did rate him in his prime, but it wasn't his technical ability that got him to where he was.

[Jase 43,479]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[killer1257 3,282]

He wasn't that technically gifted, if he was he wouldn't have declined that badly. David Villa was a much better all round player and that came to the fore almost every time they played together for Spain even when Nando at his absolute peak.
His main attributes that gave him that crucial one second advantage over many defenders were his acceleration and his underrated upper body strength (for reference see how he knocked over Ferdinand to score at Anfield against Man.United). As soon as injuries took them away he was reliant on his technical game and tactical mind and as we all know, neither were good enough. 
I don't 100% agree with [mention=10857]OhForAGreavsie[/mention]as I did rate him in his prime, but it wasn't his technical ability that got him to where he was.

Prime Torres was an amazing dribbler. Just look at his solo dribbling goals. And your argument does not count because prime Torres was also an amazing long distance shooter and a clinical striker, which he did not show at Chelsea. Chelsea Torres did not have any confidence because he was the biggest meme in the world at that time. He lost all of his pace, social media hate and all the other injuries did not help his confidence either.

But I agree that David Villa was technically superior than Torres, but Torres was more complete that Villa.

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[Tomo 21,751]

14 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Prime Torres was an amazing dribbler. Just look at his solo dribbling goals. And your argument does not count because prime Torres was also an amazing long distance shooter and a clinical striker, which he did not show at Chelsea. Chelsea Torres did not have any confidence because he was the biggest meme in the world at that time. He lost all of his pace, social media hate and all the other injuries did not help his confidence either.

But I agree that David Villa was technically superior than Torres, but Torres was more complete that Villa.

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This is going to sound crazy until i've added context but i though Torres's finishing in isolation while here was quite good. Torres's problem was he didn't have the tactical brain to get in those scoring positions regularly which meant he'd often go weeks without even a half chance of a goal. The rare times he got in i was confident he would finish and he usually (with a few high profile exceptions) did.

If he was a genuine bad finisher like Morata he wouldn't have even hit double figures here.

[DDA 9,938]

7 minutes ago, Tomo said:

This is going to sound crazy until i've added context but i though Torres's finishing in isolation while here was quite good. Torres's problem was he didn't have the tactical brain to get in those scoring positions regularly which meant he'd often go weeks without even a half chance of a goal. The rare times he got in i was confident he would finish and he usually (with a few high profile exceptions) did.

If he was a genuine bad finisher like Morata he wouldn't have even hit double figures here.

That's the truth..Torres used his acceleration to beat defences... and when his confidence was high and all was going well, the ball just seemed to fall to him most of the time. When he lost that acceleration, evidently here at Chels, he didn't have the naturual Strikers instinct say an Inzaghi had to bag the goals his previous ability would help achieve. 

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

3 hours ago, DDA said:

How on Earth could you not rate the Torres that was scoring goals for Liverpool. That Torres was the best striker in the World at the time. 

This is the kind of thing people were telling me at the time. Because I know the difference between a good player, and an ordinary one doing well. The same way anyone with eyes and experience of watching football should have known that Kezman was not Chelsea player or that Sheva was done before he came here.

I've described it many times on here and elsewhere so apologies for the repetition but the brief Liverpool purple patch was a blip. The whole of the rest of Nando's career tells the truth about his real level. I strongly believe that with the passing of time, more people in the game will find that they feel able to tell the truth about their assessments of Nando. The only one I know who broke cover at the time was Martin Allen. He summed up his thoughts on the subject by saying, "Torres, not having him. Not having him at all."

Allen was right and there must be scores of other people in the game who knew it too.

[DDA 9,938]

1 minute ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

This is the kind of thing people were telling me at the time. Because I know the difference between a good player, and an ordinary one doing well. The same way anyone with eyes and experience of watching football should have know that Kezman was not Chelsea player or that Sheva was done before he came here.

I've described it many times on here and elsewhere so apologies for the repetition but the brief Liverpool purple patch was a blip. The whole of the rest of Nando's career tells the truth about his real level. I strongly believe that with the passing of time, more people in the game will find that they feel able to tell the truth about their assessments of Nando. The only one I know who broke cover at the time was Martin Allen. He summed up his thoughts on the subject by saying, "Torres, not having him. Not having him at all."

Wether you regard his time at Liverpool a rare patch in his career or not, that Torres was a beast. He was pretty good at Athletico too.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

4 minutes ago, DDA said:

Wether you regard his time at Liverpool a rare patch in his career or not, that Torres was a beast. He was pretty good at Athletico too.

We'll always differ on this I suspect. I know I'm right, and you know I'm wrong so there we'll have to leave it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am right though.

 

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

3 hours ago, killer1257 said:

Hahaha, Comparing prime Torres with Timo Werner.

Prime Torres was one of the fastest and most gifted technical players I have seen my whole life. His finishing, his dribbling and his pace was insane. Injuries fucked him up and that is why I never wanted him at Chelsea

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You really need to watch those games again.

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5 hours ago, killer1257 said:

Hahaha, Comparing prime Torres with Timo Werner.

Prime Torres was one of the fastest and most gifted technical players I have seen my whole life. His finishing, his dribbling and his pace was insane. Injuries fucked him up and that is why I never wanted him at Chelsea

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I am pretty sure stats show that Werner is way faster than prime Torres. 

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2 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

We'll always differ on this I suspect. I know I'm right, and you know I'm wrong so there we'll have to leave it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am right though.

 

I have to side with you on this one. In those 15 months at Liverpool Torres was probably one of the top 3 strikers in the world but he was average the rest of his career. His stats show that. Agüero was at the same level As those 15months prime Torres for like 7 years for comparison. Torre scored some absolutely outrageous goals in his career tho which give some credit to the hypothesis that he was technically very gifted. Then again many players scored outrageous goals many of those players will never be remembered. I remain that Torres was basically a 2 season wonder and lived off this hype for the rest of his career. 

[killer1257 3,282]

I am pretty sure stats show that Werner is way faster than prime Torres. 

Can you show me that? I made some research too and I did not find the pace of prime Torres at Atletico or Liverpool. Werner is fast, but I remember Torres to be fast too. Of course the acceleration of Werner is better than most people but overall top speed, I think it should be close.

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[killer1257 3,282]

I have to side with you on this one. In those 15 months at Liverpool Torres was probably one of the top 3 strikers in the world but he was average the rest of his career. His stats show that. Agüero was at the same level As those 15months prime Torres for like 7 years for comparison. Torre scored some absolutely outrageous goals in his career tho which give some credit to the hypothesis that he was technically very gifted. Then again many players scored outrageous goals many of those players will never be remembered. I remain that Torres was basically a 2 season wonder and lived off this hype for the rest of his career. 

Torres scored 82 goals and made 20 assists and 145 games at Liverpool.

2007/08 season he scored 24 goals in 33 matches. 2008/09 season he scored 14 goals in 24 matches and in 2009/10 season he scored 18 goals in 22 matches. That is not average to me. Better than most Drogba seasons and Drogba played in a better team. Pool was a one man show


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11 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Can you show me that? I made some research too and I did not find the pace of prime Torres at Atletico or Liverpool. Werner is fast, but I remember Torres to be fast too. Of course the acceleration of Werner is better than most people but overall top speed, I think it should be close.

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https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-fastest-footballers-in-the-world-in-terms-of-sprint-speed

this quora Page cited an article of gimme sports which has Torres at 35,2 km/h

Which is a tiny fraction slower than teenage Timo Werner at Stuttgart

https://www.fussball-spielplan.de/welcher-bundesliga-profi-rennt-am-schnellsten/

[killer1257 3,282]

https://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-fastest-footballers-in-the-world-in-terms-of-sprint-speed
this quora Page cited an article of gimme sports which has Torres at 35,2 km/h
Which is a tiny fraction slower than teenage Timo Werner at Stuttgart
https://www.fussball-spielplan.de/welcher-bundesliga-profi-rennt-am-schnellsten/

I can live with tiny bit faster, but you said that Werner is way faster, which I clearly did not remember.

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[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

It was Torres' acceleration that was the stand out. Could get ahead of defenders with ease. 

[Jase 43,479]

The club spoke to Raphael Honigstein about Werner...

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2020/06/24/timo-werner-gives-so-many-options-explains-german-football-exper?cardIndex=0-1

Following the announcement last week that we have reached an agreement with RB Leipzig for the transfer of Timo Werner, we spoke to The Athletic’s Raphael Honigstein to hear what we can expect from the German international forward when he pulls on a Chelsea shirt next season.

Among the details given, the German football expert talks about Werner’s position on the pitch, likens his style to some former greats, and highlights the young attacker’s goal statistics…

‘I think it’s really exciting for Chelsea,’ said Honigstein, who also appears as a pundit on BT Sport’s Bundesliga coverage.

‘I would say he’s a hybrid between a striker and a winger. He’s happiest when he can cut in from the left, onto his right foot, and run at people, or into spaces.

‘But he is not one-dimensional, because his game has really improved in recent months. I think he’s become better in the smaller spaces, and better linking up with the midfielders, not just being the guy that touches the ball once in the box.’

With 32 goals in 44 appearances across all competitions for Leipzig this season, Werner is finding the net at an extraordinary rate right now, but he also has 13 assists to his name, and Honigstein believes his versatility is one of the most striking aspects of his game.

‘For historic comparisons, in terms of position, I think he’s a Thierry Henry-type striker. The other players I think of would be [Sergio] Aguero, or Michael Owen, just in terms of being a quick, rather smaller type of centre-forward. He’s 180cm tall, but he’s not a classic No.9.

‘I think he’s happiest to play around another striker, or in a three, but he can lead the line through the middle and I think he will improve in that respect. He gives you so many options.

‘That’s exactly why he’s so useful, because you can play a possession game with him – he’s made huge progress in that respect under [Leipzig manager] Julian Nagelsmann – but he is, of course, absolutely deadly on the break, in transition. Against Premier League sides that push up and leave space behind the full-backs he is just going to be the ideal outlet.

‘I was looking at some old Chelsea performances from Jose Mourinho’s first spell, as part of the BT Sport Retro Goals Show, and it occurred to me just how exciting that team was, with Duff, Robben and [Joe] Cole often attacking teams from deep positions, then running at the opposition, and the excitement that generated in the stadium for many of those big games. I think Werner could have a similar impact if you give him the ball in a bit of space to run into, and I think people love that type of player because they just think that something might happen.’

At 24, Werner is still young for a striker but he has been around for quite some time already at the top level of German football. He first broke into the Stuttgart side aged 17 and it wasn’t long before he became the third-youngest goalscorer in Bundesliga history. He has been a Germany international for three years, and represented his country at Under-15, 16, 17, 19 and 21s level, highlighting just how long he has been on the radar of football fans in his home country. It makes him very experienced for his age.

‘It feels like this is almost like his second career because it’s been going on for so long,’ says Honigstein, who penned a detailed profile piece on Werner for The Athletic earlier this month. ‘In those early days at Stuttgart, he was such a teenage sensation, but I think he was unlucky to be breaking through at a club that was beginning to be in real trouble. There was a mismatch between the expectations and the hype around him, and the quality of the team. The support for him in the squad, and on the managerial side, wasn’t really there, and I think some people made him the scapegoat. I think it was quite tough for him to deal with that.

‘But, like most strikers, he has quite a ruthless streak and I think it was ultimately very beneficial to him to do it his own way. He could have gone for an easier fit for him, let’s say, by going to another Bundesliga team, but I think the courage to go abroad and try himself in the Premier League with Chelsea is to be commended.’

That ruthless streak makes Werner extremely dangerous when running at opposition defenders and particularly when he is bearing down on goal, looking to execute one of his trademark cool finishes, that so often find the bottom corner of the net.

‘Some people have cast aspersions on his finishing because they’ve seen him miss the odd chance, but you look at the numbers and they’re all elite, in terms of positioning, in terms of the type of shots he takes, in terms of conversion rate,’ says Honigstein, ‘and he’s only 24, which I think is really key.

‘There aren’t actually many centre-forwards available who have scored that many goals at that age, because these types of players tend to peak a bit later in my experience. So I think it’s going to be really exciting to see Werner in this Chelsea team that is shaping up.’

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

The club spoke to Raphael Honigstein about Werner...

Comparing Timo to Henry positionally eh? The bloke's been reading my posts. If he starts comparing Havertz with Bergkamp I'm going to sue. 🙂

[El P. 1,354]

I think Torres peaked as a really young guy, compared to Drogba who came to top club with 26 years and peaked in his 28-9. Torres was at his best as 23yo in first Liverpool season.

So if one peaks earlier, it often means he would decline earlier, too. Especially if his game is built around pace. Also, I think Torres WAS a bit overrated, but not that much as some mentioned.

Regarding to speed of Torres and Werner - PES STATS DATABASE has them like this:

Peak Torres (24yo): Acceleration: 93 Top speed: 89

Present Werner: Acceleration: 92 Top speed: 91

I follow that page and they rarely make mistake about player stats. I think that sums it all, Werner is a bit faster and can improve more on that.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

1 hour ago, El P. said:

I think Torres peaked as a really young guy, compared to Drogba who came to top club with 26 years and peaked in his 28-9. Torres was at his best as 23yo in first Liverpool season.

So if one peaks earlier, it often means he would decline earlier, too. Especially if his game is built around pace. Also, I think Torres WAS a bit overrated, but not that much as some mentioned.

Regarding to speed of Torres and Werner - PES STATS DATABASE has them like this:

Peak Torres (24yo): Acceleration: 93 Top speed: 89

Present Werner: Acceleration: 92 Top speed: 91

I follow that page and they rarely make mistake about player stats. I think that sums it all, Werner is a bit faster and can improve more on that.

FIFA/PES Stats are hardly empirical evidence though and sometimes completely made up. They rated Bale like 20 points slower than Maicon just weeks before he tore him a new one in that legendary Hattrick performance in 2010. Just one of many absolutely bonkers examples