Super Frank Thread

[Tomo 21,733]

10 minutes ago, Azul said:

Exactly he doesn't even have a playstyle, and this is his second season! Let's just hope he finds it as soon as possible and our players adapt very quickly.

He appears since lockdown to be settling for the Zidane approach, ie keep it more compact and let the talent up top change the games in our favour.

Could actually help us compete in Europe but skeptical it can win a league Vs Pep and Klopp.

[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, Tomo said:

He appears since lockdown to be settling for the Zidane approach, ie keep it more compact and let the talent up top change the games in our favour.

Could actually help us compete in Europe but skeptical it can win a league Vs Pep and Klopp.

Why do I feel like you're holding back on this matter?  

[Atomiswave 6,072]

54 minutes ago, Tomo said:

But Klopp wasn't a winner when he went to Dortmund, so should they have sacked him when they struggled early on and gone for a "proven winner" like say, Felix Magath?

Your right that was the case, but he kept that klopp style intact throughout, I might be wrong but I dont remember him chopping and changing players formations and his way of playing every damn game. FL dont know his style yet it seems, he does not know his best 11....we wont get anywhere until thats sorted im afraid.

[prehuman 119]

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

So Giroud started last season as 3rd striker. Was out of the team for like 6 months. Then he became 2nd striker over Michy and finished the season as a 1st striker and scoring in almost every game. Without him no chance we would get CL football. He saved us!

And now after all great games he is back to where he was. 3rd striker. What message Frank is sending here? 

Like many said yesterday was perfect game for him. Werner LW, CHO RW and Kai AM. It is clear that this team would do much better. 

Last season he scored twice against Liverpool and was great in 2:0 Cup game. 

In 5:3 loss we started with Willian and Mount wide and they were shit. We became instantly much better team when he introduced real fast wingers in Pulisic and CHO. And he learned nothing from that since he did the same mistake again. Frank is so weird with his lineups. 

 

excellent example

[0007 511]

I can't really  remember Klopp only setting up his team to nulify the opponent and not to use the opportunities to attack them. And by opportunities I don't mean relying on your best player to come up with some sort of magic or hoping that the opponent will make  a costly error like the one Mendy did. I actually mean transitions that have been trained and some sort of attacking patterns that can be seen.But even in Klopp's early seasons they had a go at every team no matter who was against them.They weren't as successful as they are nowadays  but at least didn't abandon the approach for the sake of getting the result needed. And it paid off big time. We just have this inferior complex that some teams are just better than us and we have to stop them instead of the opposite.And it's not a new thing - it has been this way since the first Mourinho stint here. In fact, I think that he instilled this mindset in a lot of our fans and they are OK with it. 

WTF do we do in training? Our build-up play is well below the level it was with Sarri. We were boring at times, his stuborness was well-known, his team selections were at more than questionable but at least we were good at something because we actually have been training it. I am 100% sure that Lampard wants us to play out from the back and to become really good at it but you have to have the  actual knowledge and the ideas to make the team execute it. Most of the times the ball goes to the full-backs and they play it long to the wingers. Pochettino's Tottenham did it but they did play those long balls to the space behind the opponent's full-backs and the runs their wingers did were in sync with the passes. We try aiming the ball  to the wingers and   hope to win the second balls. Playing through the middle is almost non-existent. Jorginho is a player I like a lot but without the required movement of the players around him he is useless. And the movement is so bad at times and I am not talking only about yesterday.In these big games when we don't try to have the ball and with the lack of movement we benefit more from players like Kovacic who can overcome the press by dribbling past the opponent's players. 

 

I am even angrier at our attempts of pressing. Lampard clearly is keen on us pressing the hell of our  opponents (although as we saw yesterday it's not like we will always do it) but our press at times is easy to be passed on. Our full-backs stay deep which makes us not compact enough.There is always space  on the flanks and I can't even remember how many times Liverpool passed the ball to a free player there and kept on with their attack. We don't want to commit too much people it seems  but this hurts our press  big time.And it's not always about the quality of your players, it's the positioning and the movement that is  more important while pressing. 

 

Look at Bayern - Flick has been there for less than an year but his idea of playing was clear within his first  month of coaching them. There are other not so successful examples but an year and 2 months should be enough to see what we are in for. Right now nobody knows if we are going to be pragmatic, who between Kante and Jorginho is first choice and what our best line-up is. I agree with some of the posters that in order to be adaptive you have to master the basics first. IMO we should play with Jorginho and Kova against the lesser sides - our best run if wins last year was without Kante. He is a liability against teams that just want to deffend but a lot of our fans love him and can't see him out of the starting line-up.But this topic is for another conversation. 

 

I love Frank - he is intelligent, smart and a really nice guy. But I am afraid that the managers he played under are partly responsible for the way he implements some  of his ideas because almost all of them were pragmatic/reactive. Hope I am wrong and  the excuses are relevant.I am skeptical but Lampard still has the time to convince me  that he is  capable. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,296]

Next 3 league games will give us an idea of how the season will pan out, along the overall confidence in Lampard.

They are winnable games. If Lampard reverts back to the football we played at the start of last season, he will undoubtedly have our support.

He continues with the chopping and changing, passive possession football approach. I fear its over for him. 

 

[Atomiswave 6,072]

17 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I fear its over for him. 

Legend or not that famous axe will chop him in half if we cant see progress by christmas, we have a few good managers looking to take over.

[killer1257 3,282]

Chelsea fans are such drama queens lol.
Winning the first game, then losing the second game against the champions due to a red card and missed penalty and now they want Lampard gone [emoji23]. I mean, without having a pre season and Puli, Ziyech, Mendy, Silva and Chilwell still to play one match, they want to sack the manager. Insane...
Patience is something only a few people have, I guess most Chelsea fans do not have patience...

The only thing I would have done different yesterday was playing CHO instead of Jorgi, so we could play with one winger at least.



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[Alabama 1,992]

42 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Chelsea fans are such drama queens lol.
Winning the first game, then losing the second game against the champions due to a red card and missed penalty and now they want Lampard gone . I mean, without having a pre season and Puli, Ziyech, Mendy, Silva and Chilwell still to play one match, they want to sack the manager. Insane...
Patience is something only a few people have, I guess most Chelsea fans do not have patience...

The only thing I would have done different yesterday was playing CHO instead of Jorgi, so we could play with one winger at least.



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That's the TC world we live...its even so ridiculous on Twitter and our facebook page...How I wish Andrea's was not so stupid to engage in that reckless challenge...I know we could have ended up with 3 points...

Irony of it all is wanting Pochettino that has not won any single trophy yet slating Frank for inexperience..

[DANILA 290]

48 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Chelsea fans are such drama queens lol.
Winning the first game, then losing the second game against the champions due to a red card and missed penalty and now they want Lampard gone . I mean, without having a pre season and Puli, Ziyech, Mendy, Silva and Chilwell still to play one match, they want to sack the manager. Insane...
Patience is something only a few people have, I guess most Chelsea fans do not have patience...

The only thing I would have done different yesterday was playing CHO instead of Jorgi, so we could play with one winger at least.



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I think chelsea fans have patience to play at a top level, but we aren't even playing "OK". We barely beat Brighton and was a very ugly win. We didn't even have more than 1 solid chance against Liverpool when Leeds had 5-6. Lampard doesn't know how he wants to play and its obvious; we have zero attacking plays, it's just a matter of individual talent creating things occasionally when opportunities present themselves. Even much weaker teams in other leagues have a team attack play going about them even if they don't have the individual talent...  

[YorkshireBlue 3,122]

I think some on give Frank a break, he's helped massively get good signings over the line and he's not even had chance to play 4 of them yet (including mendy in this). So we have absolutely no idea how Frank wants to play yet, chill out watch the team grow after 10 to 15 games then judge him 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,891]

I have to get out of this thread. I can't believe what I'm reading.

 

[Fulham Broadway 16,837]

3 hours ago, killer1257 said:

Chelsea  TC fans are such drama queens lol.

Fixed it for you

[Vesper 28,786]

Chelsea want a holding midfielder – Lampard does not count Kante as one

https://theathletic.com/2079386/2020/09/21/chelsea-frank-lampard-ngolo-kante-declan-rice/

With two weeks of the transfer window remaining, Chelsea now have a big decision to make. Do they carry on their spending spree and, if so, where?

Chelsea fans will be counting down the minutes until Edouard Mendy walks in the building after another day to forget in goal for Kepa Arrizabalaga. The Mendy signing will take the summer bill to well over £200 million.

Negotiations with Rennes have taken longer than anyone at the club expected. But it should finally be made official early this week and, judging by the opening two Premier League games, Mendy won’t have long to wait to make his debut once he becomes a Chelsea player.

Anyone who watched the 2-0 defeat at home to Liverpool on Sunday might think a centre-back is still the priority for Frank Lampard. The Chelsea head coach significantly left Antonio Rudiger out of the match-day squad, and it wasn’t because of an injury.

Despite an encouraging 44 minutes, Andreas Christensen was sent off for a professional foul on Saido Mane just before half-time — a crucial mistake that changed the game, giving the Dane’s critics more ammunition.

Substitute Fikayo Tomori saw his first match action since February as a result, but like Rudiger, there are question marks over his future at Stamford Bridge. Thiago Silva is among those who have been added to the ranks and once fit, he will undoubtedly feature regularly.

However, the Brazilian turns 36 on Tuesday, so fans and pundits still wonder whether Chelsea have a combination of centre-backs who can compete for titles.

Despite all this, if owner Roman Abramovich opens his chequebook again after the signing of Mendy is confirmed, The Athletic has been told Lampard wants a defensive midfielder.

As has been well-documented, the player Lampard craves above all others is Declan Rice. Initially, Rice was primarily targeted for his qualities as a centre-back, but should Chelsea somehow persuade West Ham United to sell, he would now play in his regular position in front of the defence too.

But why is this deemed necessary? N’Golo Kante is fit, and with Jorginho and Mateo Kovacic in the squad, Chelsea are well-covered there. Much depends on the choice of formation of course, on whether two are sitting in a 4-2-3-1 or just one in a 4-3-3, but it suggests Kante is no longer being considered for the “Claude Makelele role”.

Against Liverpool, Kante was back to playing to the right of the central midfielder  — Jorginho  — in a 4-3-3. That is a shift from Lampard, who used him deeper for five straight games between June 21 and July 4 before injury got in the way.

Lampard has made it clear that Kante is going nowhere, despite interest from Inter Milan. So what is the reasoning? An insider explains: “I believe the thinking is for the balance of the squad. Last season, Chelsea didn’t have a defensive midfielder with the mindset to hold.

“Kante is not a holding midfielder, he wants to leave areas, he wants to go and win the ball back. I believe Lampard wants a holder to just sit there, to break things up, to be more of a physical presence.”

Chelsea could certainly have done with someone like that against the defending champions. As Liverpool pressed high and suffocated the home side, the lack of such a player was obvious.

Former Napoli man Jorginho, who has been linked with a move back to Serie A for several months, found it difficult to disrupt Liverpool’s attacks (he made two tackles and one interception, won 38 per cent of his duels and lost possession 10 times) and did not play the kind of pass Jordan Henderson made for Mane in the build-up to Christensen’s red card.

Next to Jorginho, Kante was busy, without being spectacular. He made four tackles (only Reece James had more in a blue shirt), he was involved in a team-high 16 duels, winning 67 per cent of them, and was joint-second among Chelsea for possessions gained (six) and fifth for touches (62).

The worry from an attacking point of view was that there were no key passes, shots or blocked shots from Kante. Perhaps it was because for most of the 90 minutes he was trying to get back to help Jorginho out.

Amid all the doom and gloom from a humbling loss, it can be seen as positive that Kante looks fit and sharp. He started just 20 matches in the Premier League last season due to various injury issues.

“He’s fundamental to what I’m trying to do,” Lampard insisted before the season got underway last week. “We can obviously talk about the attacking players we have but someone like N’Golo and the work he does in midfield is important.

“It was a difficult year for him last year because of the injuries. He came into the (2019-20) season with an injury and it was probably the culmination of games he played, so I’m really excited to have him fit. He looks fresh at the moment, so he’s a big deal to me. I want to keep N’Golo.”

Chelsea have been discussing other options in case a move for Rice fails to bear fruit. West Ham’s £80 million asking price is scaring the west Londoners off, although they can offer his fellow England midfielder Ross Barkley in exchange to try to lower the fee.

West Ham will also be reluctant to sell such an asset so soon after the furore caused by Grady Diangana’s recent departure to West Bromwich Albion. For anything to take place, Rice may have to try to force the issue, a step he may be reluctant to take given his relationship with the West Ham fans.

Chelsea could do with key personnel such as Hakim Ziyech, Christian Pulisic and Ben Chilwell getting fit.

But don’t be surprised if this early setback will have them doing some more significant transfer business before the October 5 deadline.

[communicate 2,703]

23 hours ago, 0007 said:

I can't really  remember Klopp only setting up his team to nulify the opponent and not to use the opportunities to attack them. And by opportunities I don't mean relying on your best player to come up with some sort of magic or hoping that the opponent will make  a costly error like the one Mendy did. I actually mean transitions that have been trained and some sort of attacking patterns that can be seen.But even in Klopp's early seasons they had a go at every team no matter who was against them.They weren't as successful as they are nowadays  but at least didn't abandon the approach for the sake of getting the result needed. And it paid off big time. We just have this inferior complex that some teams are just better than us and we have to stop them instead of the opposite.And it's not a new thing - it has been this way since the first Mourinho stint here. In fact, I think that he instilled this mindset in a lot of our fans and they are OK with it. 

 

. 

How do you want us to approach the game? 

Who should have played? 

[0007 511]

2 hours ago, communicate said:

How do you want us to approach the game? 

Who should have played? 

I wanted us to be a bit more proactive and not relying only  on Werner because we did exactly that.Some of the posters here think that the ones not satisfied with the approach want us to go on full-atack mode but there are a lot of nuances between this and the things I want.Our full-backs were instructed to stay deep and even our wingers were chosen with the purpose of helping them.Mount is good at pressing but I didn't see us trying to press high on the pitch so basically he was there to provide enough defensive protection.Which IMO didn't give us the chance to exploit the space behind Liverpool's defence because of the lack of natural wingers.

The last part that you quoted  is the key.A large part of our fans are ok with that approach as long as it brings the results.I am not.You can change your approach but not fully abandon the way you wanna play and we did the latter.Last year we tried to be a lot more attacking than the game the other day.And it almost paid off.The midfield was the same,Mount was there and we had Willian and Abraham instead of Werner and Havertz.An year has passed and instead of seeing us progress,this game was a downgrade from the ones last year.

[communicate 2,703]

45 minutes ago, 0007 said:

I wanted us to be a bit more proactive and not relying only  on Werner because we did exactly that.Some of the posters here think that the ones not satisfied with the approach want us to go on full-atack mode but there are a lot of nuances between this and the things I want.Our full-backs were instructed to stay deep and even our wingers were chosen with the purpose of helping them.Mount is good at pressing but I didn't see us trying to press high on the pitch so basically he was there to provide enough defensive protection.Which IMO didn't give us the chance to exploit the space behind Liverpool's defence because of the lack of natural wingers.

The last part that you quoted  is the key.A large part of our fans are ok with that approach as long as it brings the results.I am not.You can change your approach but not fully abandon the way you wanna play and we did the latter.Last year we tried to be a lot more attacking than the game the other day.And it almost paid off.The midfield was the same,Mount was there and we had Willian and Abraham instead of Werner and Havertz.An year has passed and instead of seeing us progress,this game was a downgrade from the ones last year.

Let's start with cho should have started over mount. Cho is not good at tracking back,so you basically let james played against Robertson and mane 2v1 because of CHO. Just the sound of it make no sense. 

2nd our fb did not push up high, have nothing to do with Lamp tactic. You want your fb high very2 simple, keep the ball high. We absolutely could not keep the ball. If the fb play high before the ball get to opp half, you may as well give salah and mane free pass to your goal. 

Compare to last year, why we compete better it is simple. Against pressing willian and kova were our main way to get out from press, Kovacic did it multiple time on Sunday but that is it willian is gone. Can Werner do that? Nope. Havertz? Nope. Mount? Nope. So what other solution, wait till ziyech get healthy, long ball to Werner from Ziyech. 

Lamp also said in his press that 2nd half we will have more attacking chances. This is true, no team can press hard for 90 minutes, so in 2nd half we will have more chances to attack them. Similar to our game in Anfield, we brought 3 fresh attacker late game and suddenly we were absolutely buzzing. But for Sundays once the red card happen, it was impossible to do that. 

 

 

 

[Jase 43,479]

20 minutes ago, communicate said:

Compare to last year, why we compete better it is simple. Against pressing willian and kova were our main way to get out from press, Kovacic did it multiple time on Sunday but that is it willian is gone. Can Werner do that? Nope. Havertz? Nope. Mount? Nope. So what other solution, wait till ziyech get healthy, long ball to Werner from Ziyech. 

This feels like such a narrow-minded view on how to beat pressing, especially when you have been drumming it so often. Having ball carriers or players who can dribble past players is one way but it is not the only way. You can beat it through 1 touch football (see Hazard's goal vs Liverpool at home in 2018) or play long balls to a target man (definitely not Havertz!) and build the play from there or play balls in behind the defence for players to run into. Obviously, it is not easy to beat teams that press and press well but there are different ways to do so. If we keep on thinking that dribbling past players is the only way to beat the press, then we are truly fucked.