closed Chelsea v West Ham

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

3 hours ago, Iggy Doonican said:

This is a season to far for John Terry hand on heart everyone knows that. I would never hold up a placard at the Bridge that's for twats like that geezer who held up the one about Lampard. They just want to get there face in the papers for there one minute of fame.  Cahill is not a top class defender as his performances in the World Cup and Euro's prove. Ivan is a terrible right back can be no arguments there. If he's played at right back that was my point Mourinho, Hiddink and possibly Conte will have all played him in that position and every Chelsea fan know's he's a liability. As for snapping fingers in the transfer market as I've not said or hinted at that I don't know what your on about there.

Not sure what's bewildering about saying we lack quality in the back four. As for sense of humour well I couldn't possibly comment but do you write letters to the Daily Telegraph ?

 

Thanks Iggy.

My coments about the things I see being posted were not referencing you, but rather were examples of why I might be coming across a bit hostile.

I agree with you about JT and said so at the time of the controversy. Indeed I was furious with him for the stunt he pulled in that post game interview. I made the point that loyaty goes both ways, that the club had stood by him through bad times and that although he stayed when City were sniffing around, he had been handsomely rewarded with a big new contract. I felt he owed the club better behaviour than he showed then.

My objection to what you said is the suggestion that we, here & in the stadium, can see things that the coaches can't. The notion is just ridiculous. They see it and they choose the best solutions available to them. If they don't choose the same solution I might, or you might, that is in part different opinion and in part because they have more information than we do.

We need better defenders but the coaches don't have the luxury to just moan about it or to just wish new world class players into the squad with no thought to the cost and other practicalities of their recruitment, Instead they have to put a side out. When they do, they have reasons for the choices they make and it is, I think, no coincidence that they all seem to choose the same ones.

[the wes 7,212]

1 hour ago, The Power said:

I haven't watched the pre-season games much, only know what happened but I'll go ahead and be the first to put down a starting XI.

Courtois

Aina - Cahill - Terry - Azpi

Kante - Fabregas - Matic

Willian - Costa - Hazard

Probably with Chalobah, Moses and Pedro/Batman coming on. I'm really wondering about whether we'll get any defenders. Isn't Azpi pretty much the only one who would be comfortable at LB? Maybe Aina but he'd have to play RB, unless we play Ivanovic, who gives me heart attacks now when I think about him playing RB. I'm hoping that we get a new LB because Azpi should be our starting RB and well, hopefully Zouma is back soon.

Is Terry not injured 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

1 hour ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Thanks Iggy.

My coments about the things I see being posted were not referencing you, but rather were examples of why I might be coming across a bit hostile.

I agree with you about JT and said so at the time of the controversy. Indeed I was furious with him for the stunt he pulled in that post game interview. I made the point that loyaty goes both ways, that the club had stood by him through bad times and that although he stayed when City were sniffing around, he had been handsomely rewarded with a big new contract. I felt he owed the club better behaviour than he showed then.

My objection to what you said is the suggestion that we, here & in the stadium, can see things that the coaches can't. The notion is just ridiculous. They see it and they choose the best solutions available to them. If they don't choose the same solution I might, or you might, that is in part different opinion and in part because they have more information than we do.

We need better defenders but the coaches don't have the luxury to just moan about it or to just wish new world class players into the squad with no thought to the cost and other practicalities of their recruitment, Instead they have to put a side out. When they do, they have reasons for the choices they make and it is, I think, no coincidence that they all seem to choose the same one.

Fair enough but the majority of Chelsea fans I know and at the Bridge and even non Chelsea fans can see Ivan is a terrible right back .I'm not sure what your objection is to be honest I gave my opinion and I don't think it was very controversial to say we will struggle at the back this season. Every fan is a frustrated coach it's part of the game and of course don't see things the coaches can but I still find it baffling how many top class coaches think Ivan is a good right back.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

1 hour ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Fair enough but the majority of Chelsea fans I know and at the Bridge and even non Chelsea fans can see Ivan is a terrible right back .I'm not sure what your objection is to be honest I gave my opinion and I don't think it was very controversial to say we will struggle at the back this season. Every fan is a frustrated coach it's part of the game and of course don't see things the coaches can but I still find it baffling how many top class coaches think Ivan is a good right back.

I do not, repeat not, object to your opinion on Brana. In fact as long as 3 1/2 years ago, around the time of the Swansea semi-final, I was calling for him not to be selected any more.

I'm glad we're on the same page about what the coaches can and can't  see. it's just a statement of the obvious that they can see what we can.

Where I think you and I differ is in your comment that the coaches think Brana is a top-class full-back. With respect, you don't know any such thing. You know that they select him, but all you are entitled to assume from that is that they think he is the best option they have.

One after another very skilled, trained and experienced football people have made the same choice. I'm as convinced as you are that if they thought they had a better alternative they'd take it but none of them has. That suggests to me that no matter how bad we think Brana is, the coaches think everybody else is worse.

Despite the fact that so many people wanted to see Dave moved to the right and Baba brought in on the left, successive managers have rejected that plan. This  should tell us something and I suggest Baba's departure on loan merely confirms it.

Where I think there is room for criticism is in the fact that the problem has gone unsolved for so long. Presumably someone thought the signing of baba would be the solution. Let's hope it won't go on much longer.

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

Sorry double post.

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

7 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

 

 

50 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I do not, repeat not, object to your opinion on Brana. In fact as long as 3 1/2 years ago, around the time of the Swansea semi-final, I was calling for him not to be selected any more.

I'm glad we're on the same page about what the coaches can and can't  see. it's just a statement of the obvious that they can see what we can.

Where I think you and I differ is in your comment that the coaches think Brana is a top-class full-back. With respect, you don't know any such thing. You know that they select him, but all you are entitled to assume from that is that they think he is the best option they have.

One after another very skilled, trained and experienced football people have made the same choice. I'm as convinced as you are that if they thought they had a better alternative they'd take it but none of them has. That suggests to me that no matter how bad we think Brana is, the coaches think everybody else is worse.

Despite the fact that so many people wanted to see Dave moved to the right and Baba brought in on the left, successive managers have rejected that plan. This  should tell us something and I suggest Baba's departure on loan merely confirms it.

Where I think there is room for criticism is in the fact that the problem has gone unsolved for so long. Presumably someone thought the signing of baba would be the solution. Let's hope it won't go on much longer.

So your saying that the managers pick him as a Hobson's choice ?. Of course it's an assumption and not an unreasonable one to think they rate him as a full back when Dave is a far better option. I think Baba may have improved with a few games under his belt but was never given the opportunity. And his confidence must have taken a kicking when your signed for 17 million quid or whatever it was and are kept out of the side by a right back.

[Billy. 2,742]

With no new defenders i see a score draw 

[Unionjack 7,531]

4 hours ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Fair enough but the majority of Chelsea fans I know and at the Bridge and even non Chelsea fans can see Ivan is a terrible right back .I'm not sure what your objection is to be honest I gave my opinion and I don't think it was very controversial to say we will struggle at the back this season. Every fan is a frustrated coach it's part of the game and of course don't see things the coaches can but I still find it baffling how many top class coaches think Ivan is a good right back.

I'm sure theres a guy sits behind me that thinks Cahill and Bane changed their names by deed pole to U. Cunt! Ive never heard him use their real names in at least 2 years.

[It's too big 625]

When did West Ham become the Barcelona or Madrids of the Premier League ffs?! I honestly think people overrate West Ham because of last season. On paper (and off paper) we have superior talent in every department, and if our ambitions are to challenge then West Ham should be nothing more than a fly buzzing around our ear/s. 

[Special Juan 28,141]

1 minute ago, It's too big said:

When did West Ham become a deadly threat? I honestly think people overrate West Ham because of last season. On paper (and off paper) we have superior talent in every department, and if our ambitions are to challenge then West Ham should be nothing more than a fly buzzing around our ear/s. 

Not as simple as that is it though? One of the biggest saying I use to our kids football team and it implies to all sport is "Never ever under estimate the opposition" and I think teams in this league do it regularly. Of course we have superior talent but if you aren't a team and act like individuals then you end up in the league position we did last season.

Leicester won the league.

[Chelsea4 1,521]

COME ON CHELSEA! 2016/2017 PREMIER LEAGUE CHAMPIONS! 

 

 

[DYC. 7,542]

Be wary of their threat but you can't be intimidated by the likes of West Ham. Might as well make yourselves up for a top 7 finish challenge if you are.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, It's too big said:

When did West Ham become the Barcelona or Madrids of the Premier League ffs?! I honestly think people overrate West Ham because of last season. On paper (and off paper) we have superior talent in every department, and if our ambitions are to challenge then West Ham should be nothing more than a fly buzzing around our ear/s. 

I'm sorry but that's a stupid thing to say. Having superior talents doesn't win you games. If that had been the case, we wouldn't have taken just ONE point against West Ham last season!

[Laylabelle 9,535]

2 hours ago, DYC. said:

Be wary of their threat but you can't be intimidated by the likes of West Ham. Might as well make yourselves up for a top 7 finish challenge if you are.

With the way our defence is that may be our goal lol 

Hopefully can get our act together and stop having stupid moments when it comes to defending but doubt it. Clean sheet what's that?! We are capable of scoring but rest who knows.reckon a draw and a hard earned one at that.

[The Chels 2,502]

21 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Where I think you and I differ is in your comment that the coaches think Brana is a top-class full-back. With respect, you don't know any such thing. You know that they select him, but all you are entitled to assume from that is that they think he is the best option they have.

Quote

Jose Mourinho: "How can I find a better right back than Ivanovic?"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jose-mourinho-admits-gap-between-5775856

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

1 hour ago, The Chels said:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/jose-mourinho-admits-gap-between-5775856

Has nothing to do with it. You are not so naieve as to take a manager's public comments about his players at face value are you? Just in case you are, let me help you: "My players are always the best in the world even when they are not the best in the world.", Jose Mourinho, 2004.

[Hostedenis 556]

 

Quote

Azpilicueta: "It's time to focus on West Ham, we're very excited."

http://www.chelseafc.com/news/latest-news/2016/08/azpilicueta--making-it-happen.html?extcmp=SOCIA_TW_ENG

You fucking better be, you'll be playing 4 positions!

[The Chels 2,502]

23 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Has nothing to do with it. You are not so naieve as to take a manager's public comments about their players at face value are you? Just in case you are, let me help you: "My players are always the best in the world even when they are not the best in the world.", Jose Mourinho, 2004.

Right so Mourinho made Ivanovic his most untouchable player, refused to drop him despite consecutively awful performances, called him one of Chelsea's best ever signings amongst other heavy public praise... But it was only because he had no other option for the fullback positions and in reality he didn't really rate him. Got it. 

[Pizy 18,906]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

I'm sorry but that's a stupid thing to say. Having superior talents doesn't win you games. If that had been the case, we wouldn't have taken just ONE point against West Ham last season!

Yep. Due to the new tv deal the days of clubs like Chelsea/UnitedArsenal etc being able to look past the likes of West Ham are gone. They have the personnel and coaching to beat anyone on their day. Every single PL team big or small can beat one another. Even the newly promoted sides.

 

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

25 minutes ago, The Chels said:

Right so Mourinho made Ivanovic his most untouchable player, refused to drop or publicly criticise him, called him one of Chelsea's best ever signings amongst other heavy public praise... But it was only because he had no other option and in reality he didn't really rate him. Got it. 

I think this is pretty straightforward TC but you need context: 

If a manager picks a player you can only assume that it means he thinks that player is the best option he has, not that he thinks the bloke is a world beater. It might mean just that but you can't infer it from the selection.

If a manager says one of his players is a world beater, it might mean just that but you can't assume it. You have to apply your own filter and decide for yourself. When Jose said, in 2004, that Frank Lampard was the best player in the world maybe he meant it but, even before he gave the quote I mentioned above, I never thought so. Did you?

For what it's worth I think Jose does believe that Brana has been one of Chelsea's best signings but can I asume from this that he didn't notice how poorly Brana was playing at the start of last season? How arrogant would I have to be to think that something which was blatently obvious to me, escaped the attenion of any football professional? The answer is that I'd have to be exceptionally arrogant and exceptionally stupid to boot.

As i said earlier in this strand of the conversation, all it is logical for us to assume from the consistent selection of Brana ahead of all alternatives is that the coaches, plural, who made that decision thought he was the best option available to them. If you prefer you might phrase it differently and say they believed Brana was the least bad option, but that just means the same thing.