No.10 Role

[Azpinator 2,325]

but I didn't quote you, did I?

I quoted Torontochelsea and I only stated two things: 1) it's unfair to compare their stats because Oscar was struggling last season (I never said he's struggling this season because he clearly isn't) to adapt to the league. 2) I also added a comment saying that while Mata is always going to be more creative than Oscar it doesn't mean Oscar isn't creative. He is, he just isn't (or will ever be) as creative as Mata.

I was harsh on Mata on this thread not because of Oscar. If anything I was defending Mourinho... Mata was a liability because he doesn't pay off as Cris or Messi do. Those are the only guys I can see being totally exempt from defensive responsibilities without exposing the team because the crazy amount of goals they score actually makes up for the liability they offer defensively. I was defending Mourinho's instance that Mata won't have a place at the team if he doesn't contribute with work-rate. I think the same about any other player.

But Mata worked around what Mourinho asked him to do and ever since I've been supporting him to be in the team. I was completely against Oscar in the LW, but he's made some improvement there this season and I confess I wasn't expecting that. I said so many times in this thread that if Mourinho chose Mata to be the CAM Oscar should be benched and not moved to the LW or the pivot, but everyone ignored it or thought I was lying because you keep thinking I'm saying Mourinho should play Oscar when I haven't said that once. I did say many times the best should play and right now Oscar may be the best overall, but who knows who will be next match?

I even said more than once in my posts that although Oscar is in his best moment since arriving at Chelsea he fades in comparison to Mata in his best days, but nobody quotes me on that... I said too many times Mata is the best CAM and the only problem is that he used to offer some liability, but people love to ignore that. Also this thread gives me a headache as well as this discussion.

I don't think Mata is the only reason we were never competitive in the last two seasons unless when the most experienced guys drew their blood defending and Cech operated a few miracles. I think he was part of the reason and that in the systems in have in place he was a liability. It's not even his fault, it's the manager's.

btw Oscar has 1 assist this season on CL and he did create chances to others... can we blame him if they didn't score (I guess it was even him who assisted Mata and he didn't score, but I'm not sure)

This doesn't have to be too personal, I have nothing to do with others ignoring some of your points - that's their problem, I just wanted to join the debate because you're someone I thought I'd be comfortable debating with. I didn't say you have nothing good to say about Mata, I just didn't like how you were blaming him for past failures of a team.

Okay, glad you cleared the "struggling" part up, but it's also unfair to compare them this season when Mata was coming back from an injury in the beginning, and yet Mata's passing stats are still better.

Still no evidence from you that Mata was a liability, sorry I must disagree on that. Having Cristiano and Messi as examples didn't make sense to me, we're not a 1-player club.

About the Oscar assist, I actually mentioned it and ironically you missed it. Didn't edit or anything.

Cheers!

[Barbara 15,149]

This doesn't have to be too personal, I have nothing to do with others ignoring some of your points - that's their problem, I just wanted to join the debate because you're someone I thought I'd be comfortable debating with. I didn't say you have nothing good to say about Mata, I just didn't like how you were blaming him for past failures of a team.

Okay, glad you cleared the "struggling" part up, but it's also unfair to compare them this season when Mata was coming back from an injury in the beginning, and yet Mata's passing stats are still better.

Still no evidence from you that Mata was a liability, sorry I must disagree on that. Having Cristiano and Messi as examples didn't make sense to me, we're not a 1-player club.

About the Oscar assist, I actually mentioned it and ironically you missed it. Didn't edit or anything.

Cheers!

to be honest I only answered because it's you. Anyone else I wouldn't have bothered.

As for proving Mata was one of the liabilities, I would have to scout last season's matches to show, and honestly, it isn't that important. We can agree to disagree. We offered way too much space for oppositions when our pivot wasn't that great to start with, so having a player with no defensive responsibilities in the middle just made it worse.

I really missed the Oscar one assist comment though.

I do agree with you it's not fair comparing Mata's stats when he wasn't playing enough. Touché

Cheers.

[meetdoscar 335]

They have to do with each other because I was talking about choosing your best options in each position in order to keep winning and challenge for titles. One of those positions is the No. 10 and Mata has a lot of experience there while Oscar is still learning so it makes sense to choose experience more often.

Oscar still has some work to do to perform like a CAM should, so far in the CAM position he scored (4) with (0) assists in 7 appearances while being given more than enough time to perform in each game, and a CAM must have assists more than 0 in 7 games, a CAM must provide more final passes to the striker(s) and do less shooting around. His only assist came from being in the RM position against Steaua. He doesn't have enough vision to create chances and he tends to shoot more. He can do just fine while playing with the experienced Mata so it's for the best . And I know he scored without Mata around but we looked more cohesive when he did play with him. So playing as a team is vital to win games more comfortably so that the team can compete in different competitions.

I still don't know where all the "adapting" "struggling" came from... Did he say that recently? Did Jose say that? He seems perfectly fine to me. I see him progressing not struggling to adapt.

This season Mata has better passing accuracy and better key passes and that makes him more suitable for the CAM role. While Oscar has better dribbles and shots which makes him more suitable for the RM role. Use your best options in the squad and you're good to go.

About the liability part: I know you love Oscar a lot but I think it's unnecessary to be that harsh on Mata. If Mata was really a liability in our system I don't think we would have won any of our last 3 titles. First season he didn't play CAM a lot, and dropping to 6th place in the league had many reasons, mainly it was AVB's new offensive tactics that cost us many games, not a single player. Second season he did play CAM. We finished 3rd in the PL which isn't bad, I believe we didn't qualify to the KO stages of the UCL because of real liabilities like Bertrand who cost us 2 Shakhtar goals by not being able to contain Srna, and because of our biggest weakness which was the CF, we couldn't find someone strong enough to be up against Juve defenders. Mata did great in both competitions. Give me evidence that he didn't if you're so sure because it blows my mind that you blame our whole failures in the last 2 seasons on a single player when in fact we had several other issues going on.

And I assume the topic has to do with comparing them to one another because the topic title says it. It's about who you think is the better CAM not (who's having / will have) the better season overall.

Mata had a better stat last season(chances created) than zidane or iniesta probably ever had in one single season, does that make him a better CAM than Zidane or iniesta?

[Dion 2,476]

Don't know if you'll be able to watch the video outside France but I was on TV discussing the matter of Oscar/Mata, on French TV show "The Specialists" on English Football, on Canal +. Start the video at 6mn:

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-sport/c-football/c-angleterre/pid3479-c-videos-premier-league.html?vid=949351

"Saddly" I was only able to do one short sequence on Mata/Oscar and not the second one on Chelsea's gameplan (4v3 in midfield to set up a wide forward's run)

The video isn't available for Brazil :\

[Azpinator 2,325]

Mata had a better stat last season(chances created) than zidane or iniesta probably ever had in one single season, does that make him a better CAM than Zidane or iniesta?

It makes him a very good player who deserves to be the CAM in the starting XI. I don't like your question.

[Korea 734]

Mata had a better stat last season(chances created) than zidane or iniesta probably ever had in one single season, does that make him a better CAM than Zidane or iniesta?

Exactly...

Just like how Messi and Cristiano are racking in tons of goals for Barca and Madrid, the best striker will always be Ronaldo.

Mata was in a system where he exploded (probably could of scored more goals and assists had Luiz not taken some free kicks and if our CF was in form). I would be shocked if he ever replicates last season stats again....

[meetdoscar 335]

It makes him a very good player who deserves to be the CAM in the starting XI. I don't like your question.

Why? Because it contradicts your idea of stats. First of all mata is not a CAM like you've been posting but an AM whose duty is solely to give goals and assists which is what he does and what he has to contribute when playing N0.10 but players like Oscar/zidane/iniesta are CAM's and quite different from players like mata when playing No.10 because they are real midfielders with ability to score and assist but in addition possess other play making qualities aside from scoring and assisting therefore they usually spend more time deeper in midfield than an AM who plays in the final third and therefore they have less statistics naturally in the final third than AM's but that doesn't make them any less effective to the team than an AM. So the debate about Mata vs Oscar in no.10 is really about having an AM vs CAM as no. 10 and currently with the imbalance in our pivot oscar as CAM 10 is a better fit and offers more to the team as a whole. Mata as AM 10 will leave our pivot exposed when we are not in possession. Its not mata's fault but a deficiency that oscar masks by being a CAM with especially more defensive cabability than usual but also very effective in attack.

[Azpinator 2,325]

Why? Because it contradicts your idea of stats. First of all mata is not a CAM like you've been posting but an AM whose duty is solely to give goals and assists which is what he does and what he has to contribute when playing N0.10 but players like Oscar/zidane/iniesta are CAM's and quite different from players like mata when playing No.10 because they are real midfielders with ability to score and assist but in addition possess other play making qualities aside from scoring and assisting therefore they usually spend more time deeper in midfield than an AM who plays in the final third and therefore they have less statistics naturally in the final third than AM's but that doesn't make them any less effective to the team than an AM. So the debate about Mata vs Oscar in no.10 is really about having an AM vs CAM as no. 10 and currently with the imbalance in our pivot oscar as CAM 10 is a better fit and offers more to the team as a whole. Mata as AM 10 will leave our pivot exposed when we are not in possession. Its not mata's fault but a deficiency that oscar masks by being a CAM with especially more defensive cabability than usual but also very effective in attack.

No because I don't think Oscar or Mata are in the same league of Zidane and Iniesta, and because both players are big names that never played for Chelsea. I've read the things you said before by other members, nothing new there.

Once Oscar reaches the level of Iniesta or Zidane I would gladly talk about that.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The video isn't available for Brazil :\

Worst part is that it makes you watch the commercial before it telling you that! Those darn French capitalists!

[Dion 2,476]

Worst part is that it makes you watch the commercial before it telling you that! Those darn French capitalists!

Not even the ads were there for me, hahaha. Gladly.

[EBH 283]

I am thinking, Oscar is a good player. But Mata, he does everything better than Oscar, except scoring goals. But maybe because the strikers are not scoring goals, Oscar must play because he and Lampard are the only ones we know can score goals.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I am thinking, Oscar is a good player. But Mata, he does everything better than Oscar, except scoring goals. But maybe because the strikers are not scoring goals, Oscar must play because he and Lampard are the only ones we know can score goals.

Work rate as well, over the few games we have played , Oscar has shown tremendous work rate and incredible intelligence in defending and pressing .

[Korea 734]

You know what this topic reminds me of...

Gerrard vs Lampard.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Work rate as well, over the few games we have played , Oscar has shown tremendous work rate and incredible intelligence in defending and pressing .

Mata's is getting there in terms of work rate and defensive responsibility. Oscar's definitely better in that matter but Mata is better in creating goals when not on the counter.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Mata's is getting there in terms of work rate and defensive responsibility. Oscar's definitely better in that matter but Mata is better in creating goals when not on the counter.

getting there, until I made the statement he hasn't. I fully expect him to reach the same level of work-rate though, the same way I expect Oscar to increase his creative attributes. Eventually they'll keep becoming better in different areas of their play, and Jose will play them both together for a stretch of games.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

getting there, until I made the statement he hasn't. I fully expect him to reach the same level of work-rate though, the same way I expect Oscar to increase his creative attributes. Eventually they'll keep becoming better in different areas of their play, and Jose will play them both together for a stretch of games.

Atleast, Hazard checks all boxes for me ...maybe not in the form of his life right now.

[Stats 6,990]

I am thinking, Oscar is a good player. But Mata, he does everything better than Oscar, except scoring goals. But maybe because the strikers are not scoring goals, Oscar must play because he and Lampard are the only ones we know can score goals.

Mata's goalscoring record since joining has been brilliant since joining us. Despite not hitting the net yet he is probably the best scoring attacker in our attacking midfield. Mata got around 20 goals last season.

[meetdoscar 335]

After watching oscar for brasil today i think Mata should be No.10 and Oscar No.9. No more debate?