Closed Man United v Chelsea

[bushman 2,043]

Oh boy, now I read we have got a manure fan who is very knowledgeable on Chelsea´s team ?

Sometimes, I wonder where these United fans come from.

[didierforever 7,349]

We were not struggling, we were content to allow them possession in non-threatening positions, and wait for a break. We take our chances usually - that is the difference. It wasn't always RvP who bailed us out last season - Rafa and Evra scored a few crucial goals as did Evans, and Hernandez.

By the way I watch Chelsea on a regular basis, and I come to the conclusion Ramires is nothing special I'm afraid. Don't take it personally - as you can see I rate a lot of your players. You are correct in the assumption I do not know KDB - I can't know everything, but I know the vast majority, and I'm more than knowledgeable enough on Chelsea to comment.

I may have got a few things wrong, but I don't think you had to go to the: "you don't even know the team" thing. It's just a way to dismiss my opinion - but is really totally ignorant and an easy way out. However, I don't mind. I was 99% on the ball, except for some difference in opinion on Cech and Cleverley - and to be honest that is a matter of personal thinking. Well it all is... but I think there is some you really can't argue.

As for my tactics I'm obviously guessing, he will probably do something nobody expects. I do think to win the game though one thing is a certainty we can't allow you the midfield and passing space. The ideal way is what I said - deploy attackers with work-rate, and good defensive understanding. But let's wait and see....

i seriously felt that united were being over-run in the mid against swansea. they were proving (and they really are) a handful to handle. as for rvp - i dont think any single player could have had more influence on a team's whole season as he did. be it your FA cup match against west ham or the numerous matches where u went a goal or 2down and rvp brought u back. the rest of the squad did play their role and chipped in but i am sure that if u add all the goals from the players u named would still be less than rvp's league goals. that was the limit of his influence on united last season.

i am sorry if u felt i was being harsh on u, but u called rambo a "squad player". he would be the 1st name on the team sheet right now (or maybe 2nd after cech). i seriously dont think any1 here can even fathom us playing this match or for that matter any big match this season without rambo in our pivot. the thread itself would be proof enough. i can bet u than none of the proposed team line-ups by any of the posters would be lacking rambo. also i feel u are under-rating ramires BIG TIME (which is surprising since he has done exceptionally well against united, scored a lot of goals against them and dont forget the tackle on rooney to dispossess him which led to the goal at OT). his importance to chelsea right now is as much as mata/hazard. his running, pace, finishing, tackling and most importantly his immense workrate and the sheer will to try and win any and every ball (be it united or pre-season) makes him very very very special. and mark my words "HE IS GOING TO BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TEAMS". he will win it for us.

[JayC 171]

i seriously felt that united were being over-run in the mid against swansea. they were proving (and they really are) a handful to handle. as for rvp - i dont think any single player could have had more influence on a team's whole season as he did. be it your FA cup match against west ham or the numerous matches where u went a goal or 2down and rvp brought u back. the rest of the squad did play their role and chipped in but i am sure that if u add all the goals from the players u named would still be less than rvp's league goals. that was the limit of his influence on united last season.

i am sorry if u felt i was being harsh on u, but u called rambo a "squad player". he would be the 1st name on the team sheet right now (or maybe 2nd after cech). i seriously dont think any1 here can even fathom us playing this match or for that matter any big match this season without rambo in our pivot. the thread itself would be proof enough. i can bet u than none of the proposed team line-ups by any of the posters would be lacking rambo. also i feel u are under-rating ramires BIG TIME (which is surprising since he has done exceptionally well against united, scored a lot of goals against them and dont forget the tackle on rooney to dispossess him which led to the goal at OT). his importance to chelsea right now is as much as mata/hazard. his running, pace, finishing, tackling and most importantly his immense workrate and the sheer will to try and win any and every ball (be it united or pre-season) makes him very very very special. and mark my words "HE IS GOING TO BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TEAMS". he will win it for us.

Well in my opinion it was the right decision to take up a static defensive formation and sit until they went for our goal. It means we didn't commit people out of position and chasing an effective passing team doesn't work unless you go all out. They had more of the ball, but it did nothing for them. They were basically nullified in the final third. They had shots, quite a few, but clear cut ones, I don't remember many, if any.

And don't worry about it, no hard feelings. Maybe I need to watch Ramires more carefully.

[Barbara 15,149]

I think underestimating ManUtd just because SAF left is a capital mistake that could be other teams' downfall. But we can't deny the transition weakens the side.

I agree about some of JayC ratings - others I disagree completely. Bias is not something we have total control over. Sometimes we know we're being biased, but many other we're convinced that something is true - not only our opinion - because of many facts related to that situation.

So it's only natural we are biased about some of our players the same way JC was biased about some of ManUtd's players both without noticing. Every fan overrates a player or other based on their perception and moments that player granted us - moments we cherish.

I'm no ManUtd expert as I try to avoid watching their matches but I've watched my share of them last year against Chelsea, RM and a few others occasions, so I may be wrong, but there's no way imo de Gea is already better than Cech and I think Cleverley vs Ramires also doesn't make much sense, but it's debatable, I'll give Jay that. Still Ramires is more creative imo, has about the same quality passing (he improved a lot this season on that) and they're also equivalent defending. Ramires is also faster imo and more versatile. Also I don't think Lamps will start and with either Essien or Mikel (I don't see Marco starting or even playing) Ramires won't be the deepest DM, that would be either Essien or Mikel.

The thing is they have van Persie and that makes a whole difference. We have to play in a way we don't offer him space, double the marking over him if we must. I'm not sure Moyes will have an attacking team against us. I think he'll gamble with a more defensive formation counting on Robin to get things done for them.

He knows our attacking midfield is much better and it's quite dangerous. He will try to look at what Villa did well (and that was jam-traffic the midfield, especially the center) that caused us to play so poorly compared to our first half against Hull. I hope he fails to take into consideration the problem was us mainly, not something Villa created to us.

Mata was out of shape and Lampard was too tired to make his legs obey his brain.

Mourinho admitted on his presser he may have made a mistake starting with only two fresh players and thanks to squad depth we have more fresh players to start Monday. Such as Kevin, Essien/Mikel and Torres (ugh). That's one fresh man in each zone and if he feels like he needs to rest someone in our defense and somehow Luiz isn't the new blood coming in, he could rest Ivan and bring Azpili or he could rest Cahill or Terry, move Ivan over and start with Azpili. I know he said he sees Ivan as a RB, it doesn't mean he will never play as a CB under Mou.

I'll gamble a win for us because I think Mourinho has something special waiting for Moyes and although Moyes is experienced and a fair decent manager, he's not even close the tactician José is. Of course José could make a mistake and go with the wrong tactics. But if they both pick the best tactics, I believe José has the advantage.

I don't even doubt Moyes won't play 3 CB's to be honest. I think he might do it.

[meetdoscar 335]

I really like this

--------------Cech

Ivanovic - Luiz - Terry - Cole

Ramires - Essien(lampard)

KDB(mata) - Oscar - Hazard

--------Torres(Lukaku)

Another possibility:

---------------Cech

Ivanovic - Luiz - Terry - Cole

----Ramires - KDB(Lampard)

Schurrle(Mata) - Oscar - Hazard

-----------Lukaku(Torres)

[JayC 171]

I think underestimating ManUtd just because SAF left is a capital mistake that could be other teams' downfall. But we can't deny the transition weakens the side.

I agree about some of JayC ratings - others I disagree completely. Bias is not something we have total control over. Sometimes we know we're being biased, but many other we're convinced that something is true - not only our opinion - because of many facts related to that situation.

So it's only natural we are biased about some of our players the same way JC was biased about some of ManUtd's players both without noticing. Every fan overrates a player or other based on their perception and moments that player granted us - moments we cherish.

I'm no ManUtd expert as I try to avoid watching their matches but I've watched my share of them last year against Chelsea, RM and a few others occasions, so I may be wrong, but there's no way imo de Gea is already better than Cech and I think Cleverley vs Ramires also doesn't make much sense, but it's debatable, I'll give Jay that. Still Ramires is more creative imo, has about the same quality passing (he improved a lot this season on that) and they're also equivalent defending. Ramires is also faster imo and more versatile. Also I don't think Lamps will start and with either Essien or Mikel (I don't see Marco starting or even playing) Ramires won't be the deepest DM, that would be either Essien or Mikel.

The thing is they have van Persie and that makes a whole difference. We have to play in a way we don't offer him space, double the marking over him if we must. I'm not sure Moyes will have an attacking team against us. I think he'll gamble with a more defensive formation counting on Robin to get things done for them.

He knows our attacking midfield is much better and it's quite dangerous. He will try to look at what Villa did well (and that was jam-traffic the midfield, especially the center) that caused us to play so poorly compared to our first half against Hull. I hope he fails to take into consideration the problem was us mainly, not something Villa created to us.

Mata was out of shape and Lampard was too tired to make his legs obey his brain.

Mourinho admitted on his presser he may have made a mistake starting with only two fresh players and thanks to squad depth we have more fresh players to start Monday. Such as Kevin, Essien/Mikel and Torres (ugh). That's one fresh man in each zone and if he feels like he needs to rest someone in our defense and somehow Luiz isn't the new blood coming in, he could rest Ivan and bring Azpili or he could rest Cahill or Terry, move Ivan over and start with Azpili. I know he said he sees Ivan as a RB, it doesn't mean he will never play as a CB under Mou.

I'll gamble a win for us because I think Mourinho has something special waiting for Moyes and although Moyes is experienced and a fair decent manager, he's not even close the tactician José is. Of course José could make a mistake and go with the wrong tactics. But if they both pick the best tactics, I believe José has the advantage.

I don't even doubt Moyes won't play 3 CB's to be honest. I think he might do it.

I rate players on current/recent form. A year ago is no use to me. De Gea was a monster last season, and single handedly saved many points for us with his keeping. He was in a title winning team and contributed so much near the end of the season he was voted the best, by players. The overall ability of both is probably close, however De Gea is on better form - so he gets the nod from me. I can understand why you'd be aggrieved a bit - Cech is a consistent faultless keeper 99% of the time, no doubt. Like I said though Dave is the man at the minute. You have to remeber these saves are real difference makers - with this comes pressure and the fear of letting the team down. At such a young age, it's really something. I'll say again though - it's super close.

Ramires and Cleverley makes perfect sense. Ramires is not a DM in my mind - he is noted as a DM, but I honestly find him more of a CM. He's at least not a convential DM. He's far too mobile in the middle, and with runs. I think you start with two players in that position marked DM but one of them always has freedom to move forward pretty much at will. His passing as you say is good, and it's like a CM playing a DM role, but yeah I can see why you think it doesn't make sense to compare them. To be honest I was never going to find perfect matches for everyone anyway.... look who I had to compare Mata with. It's far from perfect. It was a basic idea - and it created some discussion, which is better than everyone stating the obvious.

Besides I don't pretend to be perfect. You can all learn me bits and pieces, as I comment. See it as education. Usually if I get something wrong I can accept it easily, and move on. For example checking Ramires' position again on who scored, it is DM - however his positional play throughout the game suggests something completely different... He plays with Hazard and Oscar who won't really want to be in CM if they can help it, they'd rather be somewhere inbetween - so I think Ramires is pretty much a box to box CM. Some comparisons can be drawn. Cleverley doesn't live up to defensive duties but he can pass.... When comparing two trequartistas, you don't need them to be identical - other than having the main thing = creativity. Hence both Ramires and Cleverley are adept at passing, keeping the ball and making decent support runs. They both roam, so I think I can justify a comparison. Just. ;p

Anyways, I rambled on a bit then. You're right though I guess some under-lying biased views are in everyones make-up. I try my best to rid them from my thinking, but who knows.

I honestly think Moyes is going to silence all the doubters though - it's almost written in the stars.

- "What do you need to prove you're the man, David? Oh.. how about back to back to back ridiculous fixtures for the coming season?"

- "Consider it done. I'll just ring Jose, to ask which teams he'd like to choose" (;p)

One down - Swansea.

Three to go.........

[YouNameIt 1,511]

Lukaku has to start. Fuck ba and fuck torres.

[Roquila 1,335]

I wont make any prediction since my last predictions were so wrong i was almost put in jail.

We need 3 things for this match and we will win.

Play Luiz
Play Lukaku
Shut down RVP

VIOLA!

[Stats 7,145]

Oh boy, now I read we have got a manure fan who is very knowledgeable on Chelsea´s team ?

Sometimes, I wonder where these United fans come from.

He is doing nothing wrong. Yeah it might look like it is a bit exaggerated to Chelsea fans but he is not trolling and is offering his viewpoint. Let him be, it is an open forum.

[Stats 7,145]

My prediction;

Manchester United (2) vs (1) Chelsea

(v.Persie) (D.Welbeck) - - - (E.Hazard)

-------------------------------------------------

Probable team; 4-3-3/4-5-1

======================

De Gea

Smalling - Rio - Vida© - Evra

Carrick

Jones------Giggs

Valencia ------------------Welbeck

- v.Persie -

---------------------------------------------------

Don't expect to see an overly attacking team strategy for this game. We know your central-midfield is stronger than ours. Moyes will look to pack it a bit I thnk, so it isn't easy to keep the ball there. Or just limit Hazard and Mata's options, and space. Although possession isn't so crucial to be honest - as it worked allowing Swansea the ball and to pass it around until they advanced... then they were shut down. They're a good passing team and they had little joy. Moyes is defensively well organised. Still early days, but there are signs. We looked very solid last game. This is what we will see. A much better Manchester United defensively. We'll retain our forward players/play, and be harder to score past. Whilst Fergies' style was very exciting, it was always nail-biting stuff. I think Moyes will shake this off, and have us defend really well. He does seem to be applying the pressing as I hoped- but not overly, for our players legs.

This team is basically a 4-5-1 defending, with players that will work hard. Welbeck and Valencia drop back into the holes on the flanks when defending - equaling the 4-5-1. At the same time the team has so much pace down the wings. Perfect as Chelsea can be exploited at RB and LB in my opinion. Ivanovic never looks convincing but I'm pretty sure he'll play there since Mourniho said that's his place. Pretty sure of that anyway. Zaha could probably terrify Cole if he gets the chance....not to mention Nani. I don't think Chelsea have the fire-power to beat us. Furthermore, your central defense is weaker. Terry will have no answer to the pace. The depth of our bench would be pretty stupid for this game - Rooney, Kagawa, Nani, Hernandez, Zaha; Januzaj. That's not all of them, but you say you have a stronger team - looking at that bench, I'm not sure you do. We have Rafael out too, and are still able to put out a strong squad.

Lets do a basic sum up out of interest. I'll try and stick to the same position played for comparisons.

(Assuming 100% squad availibility)

GK; De Gea vs Cech 1-0 (Keeper of the season - it's close however)

RB; Rafael vs Ivanovic 1-0 (Getting close to the complete RB, and has been more impressive lately - and Iva is Out Of Position for me)

CB; Vidic vs Luiz 0-1 (This would be Vidic all day if it wasn't for recent injuries)

CB; Rio vs Terry 1-0 (Team of the year Rio....oh yeah)

LB; Evra vs Cole 1-1 (I'm being kind to Cole here after Evra's season - and you know it)

CDM; Carrick vs Mikel/De Bruyne (No point) 1-0

LCM/LF/CAM; Kagawa vs Hazard 0-1 (Hazard with the game time to prove himself)

CAM/SS; Rooney vs Oscar 1-0 (Last seasons contribution speaks for it's self)

CM; Cleverley vs Ramires 1-1 (Both are just good squad players)

RM; Valencia vs Mata 0-1 (Best comparison, since you generally don't use convential wingers)

CF; Welbeck vs Torres 1-1 (Welbeck is in form but it's up in the air)

ST; v.Persie vs Lukaku 1-0 (Why bother)

SUBS;

Nani vs Schurllee 1-1 (Nani is clearly better but his form is dreadful - hence the draw)

Hernandez vs Ba 1-0 (More goals - way more important key goals)

Anderson vs Lampard 0-1 (Anderson will be eating something somewhere - he won't care)

Smalling vs Cahill 1-1 (Whilst Smalling doesn't get that many run outs, he's certainly no worse than Cahill)

Zaha vs Moses - 1-0 (Zaha shown more in a couple of weeks than Moses in six months)

SCORE: United #13. Chelsea #9.

In my summation our squad is still better after no signings. Don't say I'm biased, those player scores are fair. I'm not going to say you couldn't make an argument somewhere but it's as fair as I can see. I think some of you vastly overrate your squad. You would fall apart without Mata and Hazard. We motor on with nobody with any world-class creativity from centre-attacking-midfield. We can easily replace any of our team members with the exception of Robin and not really be weakened. You cannot - and with those striking options I'd settle for third. Not even Jose Mourniho can make Fernando Torres play well. As for Demba Ba - we all know his priority was the money. Which leaves you Lukaku; excellent striker but needs to play every game to make the progress, and I don't know if he's going to get them games. Mourinho is desperate for some world-class attacking goal scorer. He's worried, and rightly so.

Anyway.... *The Champions* are about to send out an unstoppable warning - fear us; I predict a wake up call for you all. We are the champions, and we will show you why on Monday.

Nice post mate. Agree with you on some and disagree on others. I agree DDG is improving but I would have that at 1-1. Even I think Cech is the better keeper, DDG proved last season in a few games against us of the quality he has and he stopped us winning 2 games due to quality saves, Is Rafael fit because you have Smalling listed as a starter? Anyway not sure about the RB are but if Rafael is fit maybe a bit of an advantage. I, unlike others am a big fan of Ivanovic. The CB I have at a tie, hard one.

Even Evra has a lot of critics, I believe he is underrated but when I see him play he is a very consistent performer. I am not Cole's biggest fan because I feel he can be quite fragile and is not that good going forward as he used to be. Evra on the other hand can make defensive mistakes but he still performs good IMO and is very good going forward, scored quite a few last season. I say Evra is ahead of Cole, even some might not agree.

The thing about Valencia is he is not exactly a firm fans favourite but he plays very well most times he plays against us and gives Cole a torrid time because of his power and pace and this is why I hate seeing him line up against us which I am sure he will do again. I do rate Cleverley but he is not better than Ramires, but he is improving. It will be a good game hopefully and I think the team that has most control of midfield will win the game. Like most times we play you, I reckon you will start of better then we will find our way back into the game. Can go anyway but hopefully we win;)

[bushman 2,043]

He is doing nothing wrong. Yeah it might look like it is a bit exaggerated to Chelsea fans but he is not trolling and is offering his viewpoint. Let him be, it is an open forum.

Am I doing something to him ? No, I am not.

I only posting my views. Nothing wrong with it.

[Stats 7,145]

Am I doing something to him ? No, I am not.

I only posting my views. Nothing wrong with it.

So why are you stating that "we got a manure fan who is very knowledgeable on Chelsea's team". then you are questioning why other United fans are on here. Why do you care and that post which you directed at Jay is quite patronizing. Who said he is very knowledgeable on our team. He is giving his opinion on what he sees.

[bushman 2,043]

So why are you stating that "we got a manure fan who is very knowledgeable on Chelsea's team". then you are questioning why other United fans are on here. Why do you care and that post which you directed at Jay is quite patronizing. Who said he is very knowledgeable on our team. He is giving his opinion on what he sees.

I am not questioning anything. I am stating a fact on what I read.

Anyway, what´s that to you ? Why don´t you mind your own business. Just post whatever you want I do not care much.

[Stats 7,145]

I am not questioning anything. I am stating a fact on what I read.

Anyway, what´s that to you ? Why don´t you mind your own business. Just post whatever you want I do not care much.

So stop chatting rubbish then.

[bushman 2,043]

So stop chatting rubbish then.

Get lost! Don´t tell me what to post here.

[Stats 7,145]

Get lost! Don´t tell me what to post here.

Like I said stop chatting rubbish

[NishC300 1,865]

I predict a win. I think we'll continue to do very good against teams that attack us and struggle against teams that park the bus just like last season. Our squad is superior to united's and Jose should out-smart Moyes when it comes to tactics. What I'm worried about is team selection as Jose doesn't seem to know the players too well yet.

Iva should not play at RB; not in this game, not ever. In fact, I just switched my fantasy PL team around just so Iva would be in the center and not at RB, because even there I don't want to see him at RB!

I think Mata should start. He usually does very well against united, and he'll find the spaces he likes against united. But I expect him to be benched after yesterday's performance, unfortunately.

I don't think I can get myself to watch the game if I see Lampard's name in the starting XI.

Particularly the size of OT's pitch could help him.

[We Hate Scouse 10,326]

Hope we start Schwarzer.

Cech needs a rest.

[bushman 2,043]

Like I said stop chatting rubbish

Hit the road!

[Stats 7,145]

Hit the road!

Sober up