Oscar

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 18/01/2015 at 14:33, James said:

I know, but if he's contributing with goals who can complain?

The ones who demanded him to be the end product at age 23

[Jase 43,479]

  On 18/01/2015 at 14:33, James said:

I know, but if he's contributing with goals who can complain?

That's like saying players can just ignore their responsibilities as long as they score. Oh, why do we even bother complaining/discussing about issues with certain players' performance then?

[Gilvorak 3,734]

No one is saying he should be exempt from criticism just that the abuse he gets is completely over the top. Give me a few sloppy passes over the countless vital goals and assists he's given us this season. The major gripe with him last season was mainly his consistency and lack of vision there's been a distinct improvement in that side of his game this season.

Someone honestly claimed Oscar's technically deficient? What a load of bullshit.

Funny how Willian, the most toothless Brazilian of all time is more loved not only on this forum but the matchgoing fans. Same Willian that's 4 years older and in his prime.

EDIT: Anyone have the time to do a stat by stat comparison of Oscar to other attacking midfielders in his age group? e.g. Eriksen, De Bruyne, Coutinho, James etc. Pretty certain he comes out on top. What a season.

[bababoom 4,478]

  On 18/01/2015 at 15:13, Jason said:

That's like saying players can just ignore their responsibilities as long as they score. Oh, why do we even bother complaining/discussing about issues with certain players' performance then?

lol no it's not... my point is how the hell can you criticize him so strongly for misplacing a few passes? he scored two goals ffs and on top of that caused Swansea a lot of trouble with his pressing.

[Jase 43,479]

  On 18/01/2015 at 15:51, James said:

lol no it's not... my point is how the hell can you criticize him so strongly for misplacing a few passes? he scored two goals ffs and on top of that caused Swansea a lot of trouble with his pressing.

Criticize him strongly? Hardly. Was just stating the obvious issue with Oscar in a broader sense.

[didierforever 7,349]

  On 18/01/2015 at 15:42, Gilvorak said:

EDIT: Anyone have the time to do a stat by stat comparison of Oscar to other attacking midfielders in his age group? e.g. Eriksen, De Bruyne, Coutinho, James etc. Pretty certain he comes out on top. What a season.

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

People will not be satisfied, until we sold him to Real Madrid or Barcelona someday

[Viper22 2,418]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:02, didierforever said:

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

That De Bruyne kid looks good, even more so with those stats. We should sign him.

[bababoom 4,478]

  On 18/01/2015 at 15:55, Jason said:

Criticize him strongly? Hardly. Was just stating the obvious issue with Oscar in a broader sense.

Maybe not you but some people were.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:02, didierforever said:

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

According to Whoscored.com you only got Oscar's and James' stats right. Unsurprisingly all others are in fact lower than what you said (Isco, for example, 4 goals and 5 assists, not 10 as you said). Never mind stating those are only offensive stats. Oscar's defensive work is better than most on the list or at least comparable with the most defensive minded ones. Some of the benefits that come with his defensive workload/pressing won't even be displayed in his stats, like the forced mistake which gifted Costa one of his goals, that won't appear on key passes or assists.

[didierforever 7,349]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:33, Dion said:

According to Whoscored.com you only got Oscar's and James' stats right. Unsurprisingly all others are in fact lower than what you said (Isco, for example, 4 goals and 5 assists, not 10 as you said). Never mind stating those are only offensive stats. Oscar's defensive work is better than most on the list or at least comparable with the most defensive minded ones. Some of the benefits that come with his defensive workload/pressing won't even be displayed in his stats, like the forced mistake which gifted Costa one of his goals, that won't appear on key passes or assists.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/oscar/profil/spieler/85314

http://www.transfermarkt.com/isco/profil/spieler/85288

http://www.transfermarkt.com/mario-gotze/profil/spieler/74842

http://www.transfermarkt.com/koke/profil/spieler/74229

http://www.transfermarkt.com/thomas-muller/profil/spieler/58358

http://www.transfermarkt.com/james-rodriguez/profil/spieler/88103

each of their link. why would i even try to botch up stats that anyone can look up on a minute's notice?

fair enough about the point of oscar's defensive work cos he does do that. but consistency and his contribution to goals/assists is generally pretty average. gilvorak wanted a H2H done for each of them and this just proves it.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,916]

  On 18/01/2015 at 04:37, remains of the day said:

I guess the problem I have with most of these criticisms of Oscar is that too much significance and value is being placed on something that doesn’t really make a huge difference to the team’s success when looked at in the larger context of the player’s overall contributions. Oscar’s passing can be frustratingly sloppy sometimes, that’s a fair assessment but on the other hand his productivity has been mightily impressive. So while Oscar might be ”failing” in one or two aspects of his role as a number 10, he’s also highly performing in many other aspects of his job. The positives very much outweigh the negatives so I’m confused why so much more importance and value is being placed on him misplacing 10 or so passes than on his excellent output this season. I just think that there’s something very frivolous in complaining about the sloppiness of a player’s passing when that player's direct contributions to 13 goals in the league has helped the team maintain a title challenge. Ultimately, his input in 13 goals is so much more valuable to the team’s success than him being able to complete 85% of his passes in every game.

People have every right to criticize him, but others also have every right to say that these people criticizing Oscar are nitpicking. 23 years old, 6 goals and 7 assists, and here we are complaining that he routinely misplaces 5-10 easy passes, hmmm...

Well, in an ideal world yes but in the real world you have average players who are excellent passers of the ball and excellent players who are average passers. Nuances like that exists. Assessing a player's contribution to his sides's attacking play only by how high his pass completion is seems like a very skewed way of judging a player's talent.

Thanks RoTD.

I understand the point you're making of course. For example, Mata is a better passer than Oscar, yet our team has been improved by replacing the Spaniard with the Brazilian. As you quite rightly say, there are other factors to be taken into account besides just passing. Even so, I don't agree with the idea we should stick with Oscar. I say that, just as we improved our team by trading Mata for a player able to make a more rounded contribution, we can upgrade the side again by trading Oscar for an even more rounded alternative.

Yes, Oscar has made 13 direct contributions to goals and has aided quite a few more indirectly. I would not say however that those would all be lost if Oscar was replaced. Naturally enough, an alternative ten of the right calibre would also make such contributions. Maybe he'd contribute one or two fewer, or maybe one or two more, but by reducing the number of what we're calling sloppy passes, the overall impact of such a player would be more effective.

I have never said that Oscar is a bad player but, in my opinion, there really are too many sloppy passes from him. Those missed passes are momentum changers. If they were completed we'd be in possession, perhaps on the front foot, and sometimes in threatening situations. Because they are missed however, all of those good things come to our opponents instead.

It is a statement of the obvious that every player misses passes and that the more difficult the pass, the greater the likelihood that it will not be completed. There does come a point however when the accumulation of misses starts to weigh against a player.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not? A player who is great at only half of his job is a player that we should be looking to improve on. If, as was the case with Hazard and his commitment to tracking back, that player can make the necessary changes to his game then, fine, stick with him. If not, as was the case with Juan Mata, you have to bite the bullet and make the change.

The question then is where do we stand with Oscar. Is his passing good enough for our requirements and, if not, is he capable of improving this aspect of his play. My answers to those questions are no and no. Others see it differently.

[lionsden 4,689]

  On 17/01/2015 at 23:41, OhForAGreavsie said:

Stunned to see Oscar leading the MOM voting at time of posting. Even the commentator, whose colleagues usually just blindly assume Oscar is playing at the same level as Eden & Cesc, felt forced to break cover and mention that there was a lot of sloppy passing from Oscar today. And he was right, there was.

I saw @Barbara's post stating that Oscar's pass completion rate was 81% but I'd be interested to see his numbers for attempted key passes, that is his stats with the routine passes removed. My feeling is that his numbers would fall dramatically. I agree of course that no one is going to have high completion rates for such passes; they are challenging, space is limited, time is short, angles are tight and defenders are everywhere. Even so, a difference maker, a player ready to make a full contribution to his side's attacking play, should be succeeding with more of those passes than an average player might. Eden does, Cesc does, Oscar does not. Indeed my impression (not statistically verified I admit) is that Oscar almost always fails with such passes.

I realise that, in writing so forthrightly about this, I'm going to get pegged as disliking Oscar. That really is not how I see myself at all, but I'm sad to say that I virtually never see performances from Oscar which convince me that he is is the right man for the Chelsea job or even any which give me hope that this situation will change.

This is talkchelsea. Result is greater than performance around here apparently plus posters are too desperate to stick it to those that dare criticise Oscar they will see such a game as a great performace deserving MOTM. It's hilarious.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,916]

  On 18/01/2015 at 15:42, Gilvorak said:

No one is saying he should be exempt from criticism just that the abuse he gets is completely over the top. Give me a few sloppy passes over the countless vital goals and assists he's given us this season. The major gripe with him last season was mainly his consistency and lack of vision there's been a distinct improvement in that side of his game this season.

Someone honestly claimed Oscar's technically deficient? What a load of bullshit.

Funny how Willian, the most toothless Brazilian of all time is more loved not only on this forum but the matchgoing fans. Same Willian that's 4 years older and in his prime.

EDIT: Anyone have the time to do a stat by stat comparison of Oscar to other attacking midfielders in his age group? e.g. Eriksen, De Bruyne, Coutinho, James etc. Pretty certain he comes out on top. What a season.

Thanks Gilvorak.

I don't see evidence of Oscar being abused. My reading of it is that people are just commenting on what they see as his deficiencies.

I don't agree with you that Oscar has improved in his vision. You and I see the games so if our assessment of what we see is different then that's a simple disagreement and we can agree to accept that difference.

For what it's worth I have been calling for Willian to be replaced too. I've been saying since as long ago as last winter's transfer window that Oscar and Willian are the best players we have for their roles in the team but that we should be looking for upgrades in both cases.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:40, didierforever said:

http://www.transfermarkt.com/oscar/profil/spieler/85314

http://www.transfermarkt.com/isco/profil/spieler/85288

http://www.transfermarkt.com/mario-gotze/profil/spieler/74842

http://www.transfermarkt.com/koke/profil/spieler/74229

http://www.transfermarkt.com/thomas-muller/profil/spieler/58358

http://www.transfermarkt.com/james-rodriguez/profil/spieler/88103

each of their link. why would i even try to botch up stats that anyone can look up on a minute's notice?

fair enough about the point of oscar's defensive work cos he does do that. but consistency and his contribution to goals/assists is generally pretty average. gilvorak wanted a H2H done for each of them and this just proves it.

But I don't know, those look completely fucked up. For example, they add Isco's goals and assists at the World Cup but not Oscar's.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:33, Dion said:

According to Whoscored.com you only got Oscar's and James' stats right. Unsurprisingly all others are in fact lower than what you said (Isco, for example, 4 goals and 5 assists, not 10 as you said). Never mind stating those are only offensive stats. Oscar's defensive work is better than most on the list or at least comparable with the most defensive minded ones. Some of the benefits that come with his defensive workload/pressing won't even be displayed in his stats, like the forced mistake which gifted Costa one of his goals, that won't appear on key passes or assists.

indeed completely unsurprisingly... then I have to trust some fan-made site as the source - where they don't even keep the same criteria. We shouldn't even bother tbh

[didierforever 7,349]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:51, Dion said:

But I don't know, those look completely fucked up. For example, they add Isco's goals and assists at the World Cup but not Oscar's.

world cup???

[lionsden 4,689]

  On 18/01/2015 at 16:40, OhForAGreavsie said:

Thanks RoTD.

I understand the point you're making of course. For example, Mata is a better passer than Oscar, yet our team has been improved by replacing the Spaniard with the Brazilian. As you quite rightly say, there are other factors to be taken into account besides just passing. Even so, I don't agree with the idea we should stick with Oscar. I say that, just as we improved our team by trading Mata for a player able to make a more rounded contribution, we can upgrade the side again by trading Oscar for an even more rounded alternative.

Yes, Oscar has made 13 direct contributions to goals and has aided quite a few more indirectly. I would not say however that those would all be lost if Oscar was replaced. Naturally enough, an alternative ten of the right calibre would also make such contributions. Maybe he'd contribute one or two fewer, or maybe one or two more, but by reducing the number of what we're calling sloppy passes, the overall impact of such a player would be more effective.

I have never said that Oscar is a bad player but, in my opinion, there really are too many sloppy passes from him. Those missed passes are momentum changers. If they were completed we'd be in possession, perhaps on the front foot, and sometimes in threatening situations. Because they are missed however, all of those good things come to our opponents instead.

It is a statement of the obvious that every player misses passes and that the more difficult the pass, the greater the likelihood that it will not be completed. There does come a point however when the accumulation of misses starts to weigh against a player.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not? A player who is great at only half of his job is a player that we should be looking to improve on. If, as was the case with Hazard and his commitment to tracking back, that player can make the necessary changes to his game then fine stick with him. If not, as was the case with Juan Mata, you have to bite the bullet and make the change.

The question then is where do we stand with Oscar. Is his passing good enough for our requirements and, if not, is he capable of improving this aspect of his play. My answers to those questions are no and no. Others see it differently.

This is a big misconception. No our team has been improved because we have a better manager than AVB, Di matteo and Rafa in charge now and secondly because we have a significantly better team than the one mata had. i,e Matic, Costa, Fabregas,Azpi (he's greater than the washed up version of Cole), A Much matured , more consistent and much improved Hazard and so on.

Oscar was a regular fixture during the mata days when we sucked too, we are not better because we replaced Oscar with mata, we are better now because we have one of the best manager in the world and a better team.