Formation and Tactics Discussion

[manpe 10,861]

We should change formations according to the nature of the game and the opposition. I don't want there to be any predictability. When AVB was here, he played mostly 4-3-3 and it looked bollocks more often than not, everytime he put Mata in the middle and shifted to 4-2-3-1 we looked better, but I think one key element to that was that the other teams were set up against a 4-3-3... and of course that our only sparkly player could touch the ball more often. Since we now have more of those players, I think 4-3-3 could work out pretty well and rotating between those two formations would confuse the opponent.

I actually do want to see it used more often now, with Oscar occupying the 'Lampard position' and Ramires playing where he belongs, with Mikel shielding their backs. Hazard and Mata will have to play on wings at some point so they might as well get used to it and cash in their "I'll play where the boss tells me to play" statements.

Formations aside, it's ultimately the personnel that matter the most. Tactics + skills > formation. But I definitely want to see 4-3-3 tested out more with the new players.

[Kojo 4,676]

First time posting on this forum but I actually agree with you 100%. So glad someone else notices this. The 4-2-3-1 would be an effective formation if we had a strong and solid defensive midfielder. I'll be brutally honest - mikel should not be allowed anywhere near the double pivot, yes he put in a great game against bayern and yes he's improved significantly, but in the double pivot he's just not capable of holding the midfield. It was just far too easy for the opposition to get past him and this risked exposing the back four.

Just look at when Essien played against MLS or PSG - the moment possession was lost he was on the ball, he created problems for the opposition. Mikel (bless him) just lacks this aggressiveness that's required to slow down a counter-attack. He's just far too passive, slow and really doesn't work all that hard. While his weaknesses might not have been too much of a problem when we played a 4-3-2-1 formation, however in double pivot he creates a huge gap between the defence and the forwards. If we're going to stick to the 4-2-3-1 formation then it is crucial that sign a quality defensive midfielder who has a good work rate, is prolific at winning the ball and can tackle well. My pick would be Etienne Capoue.

You summed it up perfectly when you said Mikel isn't aggressive enough, it is crucial to sign a new DM who has good work rate indeed, i don't rate Scott Parker that much anymore i think he's gone down hill, but he's still all over the place. Our best bet would be Tiote, also a very clever player. That's the only way we could even possible compete with Cities midfield, if we signed a player like him. I think Ramires can play in double pivot, but not as our DM. Mikel i think we just need to let go if i'm perfectly honest. So we can switch between our new DM hopefully Tiote and Romeu, because Romeu is a great player. He was brilliant last season then something went wrong in the background (no one knows what happened but we know for definite something happened as he didn't play for ages). I think it's a good rotation option, and considering Romeu's age he can start a lot of games in the league this season so i think it's a very good choice. Rather than a liability like Mikel.

The only worry about this

Tiote-Ramires

is you cannot expect passing to come from here, but with a great attacking front three, and Oscar dropping deep sometimes, i think it would be perfectly fine if I'm honest.

[themightyblue 443]

Ok i'll bite, how after 4 pre season games, without a full squad and with a big emphasis on fitness can we start saying 4231 isn't our right formation? If you've noticed, the majority of the problems in pre-season games has been as a result of our poor play in the final third, not the pivot. This can easily be rectified once our transfers are done and we get the likes of Oscar and Mata back. The 4231 is a great formation and is why so many teams are starting to play it, don't be fooled by 4 pre season games. It's those 4 'forward' position if you like, but as seen in parts yesterday and against Seattle, when we had Hazard and Marin in there together factor in a proper striker and then Oscar and Mata and suddenly the formation looks great.

[Kojo 4,676]

Ok i'll bite, how after 4 pre season games, without a full squad and with a big emphasis on fitness can we start saying 4231 isn't our right formation? If you've noticed, the majority of the problems in pre-season games has been as a result of our poor play in the final third, not the pivot. This can easily be rectified once our transfers are done and we get the likes of Oscar and Mata back. The 4231 is a great formation and is why so many teams are starting to play it, don't be fooled by 4 pre season games. It's those 4 'forward' position if you like, but as seen in parts yesterday and against Seattle, when we had Hazard and Marin in there together factor in a proper striker and then Oscar and Mata and suddenly the formation looks great.

Did you read what i said?, i said this thread isn't any anger aimed towards any previous pre season matches.

This is about the double pivot for me, we don't have the players to fit in it, it's not about the attackers, we have great attackers.

[themightyblue 443]

Did you read what i said?, i said this thread isn't any anger aimed towards any previous pre season matches.

This is about the double pivot for me, we don't have the players to fit in it, it's not about the attackers, we have great attackers.

Yes but i don't get how you can claim that. The only problems our pivot had in pre season was in defence. It was our attack that's been shit in pre season, except for when Hazard and Marin played together and some individual performances from Hazard.. What is needed is a some personnel changes in attack because Ramires, Lukaku, Meireles etc aren't good enough. Didn't you notice how everything was good in our build up play until we reached the final third? Defenders and the goalkeeper were passing it out rather than booting it forward, and then as soon as we got in the last third things didn't click or we weren't good enough. Much bigger problems than the pivot if we're really going to assess things, mainly a striker and RW

[Kojo 4,676]

Yes but i don't get how you can claim that. The only problems our pivot had in pre season was in defence. It was our attack that's been shit in pre season, except for when Hazard and Marin played together and some individual performances from Hazard.. What is needed is a some personnel changes in attack because Ramires, Lukaku, Meireles etc aren't good enough. Didn't you notice how everything was good in our build up play until we reached the final third? Defenders and the goalkeeper were passing it out rather than booting it forward, and then as soon as we got in the last third things didn't click or we weren't good enough. Much bigger problems than the pivot if we're really going to assess things, mainly a striker and RW

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

[themightyblue 443]

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

Your not going to always have defensive problems, you may get caught out occassionally, but when it starts to work effectively then defensive mistakes become limited. A switch in formation to a 433 won't help anything too because unless we play Romeu instead, that's where Mikel is at his weakest as he doesn't do enough as a lone DM in terms of realsing the ball early or attempting incisive passes. That's why a 4231 is better as he has a player next to him in Lampard who can do all of that for him, while he can focus on what he's best at....defending. It's also fine for Lampard to get up the pitch, Toure does it, as do Khedira and Modric, but like i said in another thread they have to develop an understanding where when one attacks the other one holds. Although Lampard was getting too far foward yesterday. What will be the death of us is if we don't have a striker scoring. Goals win games....

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be next summer.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be NEXT summer.

thank you.

[Jype 6,398]

I don't think the 4-2-3-1 formation is the real problem here. Watching Brazil playing with this same formation right now at the Olympics I'm thinking that's what our play is supposed to look like. Hulk, Oscar and Neymar occupy those three spots behind the striker and they are very fluid and swap places all the time and every one of them have been given the freedom to roam around the pitch, making it very hard for the opponents to mark them. With Hazard, Mata and Oscar the quality is definitely there and we should be able to do something similar once they have got to know each other and develop an understanding on the pitch. Trust me guys, the future is very bright. :blue scalf:

[Strike 7,217]

I don't think the 4-2-3-1 formation is the real problem here. Watching Brazil playing with this same formation right now at the Olympics I'm thinking that's what our play is supposed to look like. Hulk, Oscar and Neymar occupy those three spots behind the striker and they are very fluid and swap places all the time and every one of them have been given the freedom to roam around the pitch, making it very hard for the opponents to mark them. With Hazard, Mata and Oscar the quality is definitely there and we should be able to do something similar once they have got to know each other and develop an understanding on the pitch. Trust me guys, the future is very bright. :blue scalf:

sadly that's not happening with us. the opposition lines up with 7-8 defenders and our 4 little attackers run into a brick-wall. midfield needs to support the 4 attackers.

plus yeah, we are not WINNING the ball back in mid. we are actually letting it go past the mid easily

[Jype 6,398]

sadly that's not happening with us. the opposition lines up with 7-8 defenders and our 4 little attackers run into a brick-wall. midfield needs to support the 4 attackers.

plus yeah, we are not WINNING the ball back in mid. we are actually letting it go past the mid easily

I'm not saying it will happen right away, but with Hazard - Oscar - Mata we are set for years to come and maybe we can improve in other areas in the future as well. Not expecting them to be setting the world alight from day one but it's not all doom and gloom as one could assume reading some of these posts.

[Kojo 4,676]

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be next summer.

You really have it in for me, for your own safety you should put me on ignore list

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

Indeed can't see the club spending for more than a RB adn a ST/RW. We'll atleast have a try until Winter before buying a new CM/DM. We lack a bit of quality in that position but perhaps its an opportunity for Romeu or McEachran to demonstrate their ability to step ahead.

ATM a major factor is numbers. We have to get rid of players to buy new ones whilst at CM we are - with regard to numbers - fulled up. Provided Essien and Meireles leave us ( which I wish they would and still trasnfers are not off as Ess is past it and Meireles has always been an average player with a bit of shooting ability and experience )there would be a blatant neccessity, but don't expect the club to rush before. .

As for Mikel, he's always been a decent defensive midfielder, of course he lacks the drive and commitment wich becomes more obvious in a doubole pivot than in a midfield three. aS he's our only viable opiton it leads us back to the initial topic, our system.

I think a 4-3-2-1 interchanging with a 4-3-3 would fit most players individual strengths

-------------Mikel-----------

---Ramires-------Lamps--

-----Mata----------Hazard-

--------------Torres--------

Mikel - works best in a midfield three as the holding midfielder

Ramires - has not quite the technique for RW but his pace, drive, energy are wasted in a double pivot. Best position is RCM

Lamps - always likes to draw back before making his trademark runs, so a classic numer 10 would place him too far in front, whilst his offensive abilities would be limited too much in a double pivot

Mata & Hazard have very much freedom roaming about, interchanging sides both being kinda number 10 AND winger whilst having enough space not to stmap on each others toes.

As for width, I assure u this system would provide our fullbacks the opportunity to sprint forward and otherwise Hazard is a brillant and Ramires a decent winger with their pace, so they could both do a job there by changing position. In case it should have to be really offensively this can easily turn into a 4-1-4-1 with Lamps going next to mata in a double no. 10 hazard left, rambo right, a 4-2-3-1 with either lamps going forward to no 10, mata on wing or lamps withdrawing into double pivot with mikel and rambo on wing or if we need to counter it could be a classic 4-3-3 with mata nd hazard on the wings

[nerry 3]

this guy that started this topic has the biggest vendetta against mikel, biggest tool on this forum....the kojo guy. I do not know why people reply to his views.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

You really have it in for me, for your own safety you should put me on ignore list

there is no way we're buying a dm this summer. i dont see it, a rb is a lock in then what? we buy a dm cuz TIOTE is miles better than mikel?! no! we buy the rw so our attack can win us of games for once and be the intimidating factor we're all dreaming of. we're switching from defense to fluidity in attack how can that happen when we're always lookin to the past. nobody said the transformation had to be formed in a fortnight. Rome was not built in a day. and we're in the process of building that empire, and this year will be the test year, we play what we have and if our defense fails we will improve it next summer. and also yes defense is important and if our pivot fails theres always our old reliable 433 so no a dm in not NEEDED now, and @KonohasOrangeFlash, is right bout it coming next summer.

[DDA 9,690]

==========Torres==========

Mata================Hazard

==========Oscar==========

======Mikel====Lampard====

Cole====JT====Luiz====Ivanovic

==========Cech===========

Subs: Marin, Ramirez, Hilarious, Cahill, Sturridge, Hopefully Azpi and Cavani

I would think this starting eleven would be our strongest. It's hard to leave out Ramirez and Cahill and of course my imaginary Cavani but given rotation they would feature in half if down to injury most of the games anyways. Cor It gives me a boner just typing that team down.

[sleazyB 58]

That double pivot was an important part of the champions league campaign last year. We won with DEFENSE. I think our pivot is more than fine, some of you guys sre just looking for something to bitch about Mikel romeu and mikel are all great options at DM, I just worry about Lampard. A player like Xabi Alonso Creates so many opportunities for Real Madrid, that is the element we are lacking.