Formation and Tactics Discussion

[communicate 2,703]

my first team barring injuries

cech

ivanovic cahill terry cole

mikel lampard

marin mata hazard

torres

beast team.

just need a back up rb and striker.

I expect that to be our main starting lineup for next season.

Our 3 AM can switch position at will and If we need to boss the game better we can bring oscar to replace lampard.

[BLionheart 516]

You can all fantasize all you want but unless we replace Mikel with a proper DM , we will have the same troubles.

[TrippingStep 336]

what I would like if we buy Cavani and Azpilicueta.

----------Azpi----------------------------Ivanovic-------------?-------------------------Cole----------------

------------------------------Ramires-----------------------?----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------Oscar----------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------Mata----------------------------------------------------Hazard----------------------------------

----------------------------------------------Cavani------------------------------------------------------------------

Full backs that can take the space ant take on the fullbacks of the other team.

Oscar Mata Hazard exchanging their positions, Oscar being the one dictating the tempo of the game. When he comes deeper, Ramires can come forward, if the opposite team player is following oscar, Ramires driving in the space could be great.

Cavani for me would be a great forward as he's a hard working player, he can link-up quite well and is a great header of the ball.

[Pacquiao 1,834]

And before anyone gets angry, this isn't any kneejerk thread or any anger towards any previous matches.

Do you think we should keep this formation or change it?, i think we should change it. With our current players we cannot hold a good double pivot.

Lampard-Mikel not good enough, that will cause problems. Any other alternate decisions are still not good enough, probably our best one is...

Ramires-Mikel, still for me this isn't good enough but probably our best one.

Maybe it's time to change to a 4-3-3?.

Hazard-Torres-Marin

Mata/Oscar-Ramires

Mikel

Cole-Terry-Luiz-Ivanovic

Cech

I think we need to change the system and with our current players possibly our best line up there. But i think we definitely need a new DM, and you've heard it before from me i want Tiote. And people disagree and think Mikels good enough, fair enough if that's what you think.

But what do you think about 4-2-3-1?, is it wise to keep this formation?, or should we revert to 4-3-3?, or any different formation.

I 100% agree! our double pivot clearly isn't good enough! for me we really need to just pay the £35-40 Million for Modric as he would improve our team massively! we need someone who can control games from midfield and get the ball to the creative players! Lamps-Mikel just isn't good enough! they are good when we park the bus but when we play attacking football they are absolutely useless!

[Tomo 21,751]

I have actually been thinking this for a while.

4-2-3-1 served us well last season but this season i don't think it will be much cop. If we start the season with this formation, it will be changed before long no doubt about it.

I think we have the personnel to revert back to the 4-3-3, we have the players that can play on the wings now. Hazard, Marin, Mata, Danny and Oscar (although i'd prefer the later in the centre).

You can all fantasize all you want but unless we replace Mikel with a proper DM , we will have the same troubles.

Although i think Mikel is vastly under-rated i do agree there are better out there, i think next summer will be when the club prioritize getting a new defensive midfielder in, especially if Barca activate the Romeu clause.

[Blue Armour 4,439]

Its a no-brainer. Di Matteo can't stick with one formation the entire season. 4-3-3 is an excellent formation to revert to. It started to fail over the past two seasons, primarily for 2 reasons: 1. No genuine wide players 2. The same personnel being used week in week out. allowing teams to figure us out. With the players we have now, (not to mention the type we lack to play in the double pivot) 4-3-3 is good.

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

I have actually been thinking this for a while.

4-2-3-1 served us well last season but this season i don't think it will be much cop. If we start the season with this formation, it will be changed before long no doubt about it.

I think we have the personnel to revert back to the 4-3-3, we have the players that can play on the wings now. Hazard, Marin, Mata, Danny and Oscar (although i'd prefer the later in the centre).

Oscar is not even a winger FFS. Do some research.

[Tomo 21,751]

Oscar is not even a winger FFS. Do some research.

Arre my eyes deceiving me? im pretty sure i put can play on the wing if need be, i never said he was an out and out winger.

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

Arre my eyes deceiving me? im pretty sure i put can play on the wing if need be, i never said he was an out and out winger.

Let's try Lampard on the wing........

[Ollie 4,400]

Not sure really, i mean we played really well against PSG in the 2nd half and looked dangerous against Seattle. I think it's the personnel who are occupying the positions that are making it seem to be not working so well and the serious lack of tempo. I think Ramires, Oscar and Mikel would be great in a 3 across midfield with Hazard and Marin or Mata on the wings but i'm not sure if Mata and Hazard want to be so far out wide throughout matches. The 4-2-3-1 gives them more freedom and more areas of the pitch to do what they do.

I think just keep the 4-2-3-1 and develop it over time when we have everyone fit. If we use 4-3-3, we should use it more as a 4-3-2-1 and give the '2' more freedom. That would work great for me.

Judge the 4-2-3-1 when we have everyone to chose from. It could be a brilliant formation in time as we have the players for it.

[Ryan Fong 2,776]

Cech

Ivanovic - Cahill - Terry - A.Cole

Ramires - Essien(Mikel)

Oscar - Mata - Hazard

Torres

This will do for me. Lampard can be an experienced sub like Giggs does for MU.

Edit: Oscar can interchange with Ramires; Mata can interchange with Hazard.

[Kojo 4,676]

I 100% agree! our double pivot clearly isn't good enough! for me we really need to just pay the £35-40 Million for Modric as he would improve our team massively! we need someone who can control games from midfield and get the ball to the creative players! Lamps-Mikel just isn't good enough! they are good when we park the bus but when we play attacking football they are absolutely useless!

The defensive midfield position is what we need to sort out mostly, Mikel lacks the aggressiveness as dee25 pointed out earlier in the thread. You wont see Mikel sprinting back or slide tackling or bullying midfielders, only with his strength he can shield them off the ball and make a good pass. For me it's not good enough, Mikel must break up play, and Lampard is an attacking player like it or not, he can do the business but not for the rest of his career, he's always going to look to go forward. Modric would be perfect but i cannot see it, he looks Madrid bound now too.

I am confident Ramires could be the engine, but he must stay back a lot more if he's playing the double pivot. But getting a new DM is a must, the perfect DM we could get is Tiote, some people should watch him they would be very impressed, and with Mike Ashley owner i think anyone could get him.

[manpe 10,861]

We should change formations according to the nature of the game and the opposition. I don't want there to be any predictability. When AVB was here, he played mostly 4-3-3 and it looked bollocks more often than not, everytime he put Mata in the middle and shifted to 4-2-3-1 we looked better, but I think one key element to that was that the other teams were set up against a 4-3-3... and of course that our only sparkly player could touch the ball more often. Since we now have more of those players, I think 4-3-3 could work out pretty well and rotating between those two formations would confuse the opponent.

I actually do want to see it used more often now, with Oscar occupying the 'Lampard position' and Ramires playing where he belongs, with Mikel shielding their backs. Hazard and Mata will have to play on wings at some point so they might as well get used to it and cash in their "I'll play where the boss tells me to play" statements.

Formations aside, it's ultimately the personnel that matter the most. Tactics + skills > formation. But I definitely want to see 4-3-3 tested out more with the new players.

[Kojo 4,676]

First time posting on this forum but I actually agree with you 100%. So glad someone else notices this. The 4-2-3-1 would be an effective formation if we had a strong and solid defensive midfielder. I'll be brutally honest - mikel should not be allowed anywhere near the double pivot, yes he put in a great game against bayern and yes he's improved significantly, but in the double pivot he's just not capable of holding the midfield. It was just far too easy for the opposition to get past him and this risked exposing the back four.

Just look at when Essien played against MLS or PSG - the moment possession was lost he was on the ball, he created problems for the opposition. Mikel (bless him) just lacks this aggressiveness that's required to slow down a counter-attack. He's just far too passive, slow and really doesn't work all that hard. While his weaknesses might not have been too much of a problem when we played a 4-3-2-1 formation, however in double pivot he creates a huge gap between the defence and the forwards. If we're going to stick to the 4-2-3-1 formation then it is crucial that sign a quality defensive midfielder who has a good work rate, is prolific at winning the ball and can tackle well. My pick would be Etienne Capoue.

You summed it up perfectly when you said Mikel isn't aggressive enough, it is crucial to sign a new DM who has good work rate indeed, i don't rate Scott Parker that much anymore i think he's gone down hill, but he's still all over the place. Our best bet would be Tiote, also a very clever player. That's the only way we could even possible compete with Cities midfield, if we signed a player like him. I think Ramires can play in double pivot, but not as our DM. Mikel i think we just need to let go if i'm perfectly honest. So we can switch between our new DM hopefully Tiote and Romeu, because Romeu is a great player. He was brilliant last season then something went wrong in the background (no one knows what happened but we know for definite something happened as he didn't play for ages). I think it's a good rotation option, and considering Romeu's age he can start a lot of games in the league this season so i think it's a very good choice. Rather than a liability like Mikel.

The only worry about this

Tiote-Ramires

is you cannot expect passing to come from here, but with a great attacking front three, and Oscar dropping deep sometimes, i think it would be perfectly fine if I'm honest.

[themightyblue 443]

Ok i'll bite, how after 4 pre season games, without a full squad and with a big emphasis on fitness can we start saying 4231 isn't our right formation? If you've noticed, the majority of the problems in pre-season games has been as a result of our poor play in the final third, not the pivot. This can easily be rectified once our transfers are done and we get the likes of Oscar and Mata back. The 4231 is a great formation and is why so many teams are starting to play it, don't be fooled by 4 pre season games. It's those 4 'forward' position if you like, but as seen in parts yesterday and against Seattle, when we had Hazard and Marin in there together factor in a proper striker and then Oscar and Mata and suddenly the formation looks great.

[Kojo 4,676]

Ok i'll bite, how after 4 pre season games, without a full squad and with a big emphasis on fitness can we start saying 4231 isn't our right formation? If you've noticed, the majority of the problems in pre-season games has been as a result of our poor play in the final third, not the pivot. This can easily be rectified once our transfers are done and we get the likes of Oscar and Mata back. The 4231 is a great formation and is why so many teams are starting to play it, don't be fooled by 4 pre season games. It's those 4 'forward' position if you like, but as seen in parts yesterday and against Seattle, when we had Hazard and Marin in there together factor in a proper striker and then Oscar and Mata and suddenly the formation looks great.

Did you read what i said?, i said this thread isn't any anger aimed towards any previous pre season matches.

This is about the double pivot for me, we don't have the players to fit in it, it's not about the attackers, we have great attackers.

[themightyblue 443]

Did you read what i said?, i said this thread isn't any anger aimed towards any previous pre season matches.

This is about the double pivot for me, we don't have the players to fit in it, it's not about the attackers, we have great attackers.

Yes but i don't get how you can claim that. The only problems our pivot had in pre season was in defence. It was our attack that's been shit in pre season, except for when Hazard and Marin played together and some individual performances from Hazard.. What is needed is a some personnel changes in attack because Ramires, Lukaku, Meireles etc aren't good enough. Didn't you notice how everything was good in our build up play until we reached the final third? Defenders and the goalkeeper were passing it out rather than booting it forward, and then as soon as we got in the last third things didn't click or we weren't good enough. Much bigger problems than the pivot if we're really going to assess things, mainly a striker and RW

[Kojo 4,676]

Yes but i don't get how you can claim that. The only problems our pivot had in pre season was in defence. It was our attack that's been shit in pre season, except for when Hazard and Marin played together and some individual performances from Hazard.. What is needed is a some personnel changes in attack because Ramires, Lukaku, Meireles etc aren't good enough. Didn't you notice how everything was good in our build up play until we reached the final third? Defenders and the goalkeeper were passing it out rather than booting it forward, and then as soon as we got in the last third things didn't click or we weren't good enough. Much bigger problems than the pivot if we're really going to assess things, mainly a striker and RW

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

[themightyblue 443]

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

Your not going to always have defensive problems, you may get caught out occassionally, but when it starts to work effectively then defensive mistakes become limited. A switch in formation to a 433 won't help anything too because unless we play Romeu instead, that's where Mikel is at his weakest as he doesn't do enough as a lone DM in terms of realsing the ball early or attempting incisive passes. That's why a 4231 is better as he has a player next to him in Lampard who can do all of that for him, while he can focus on what he's best at....defending. It's also fine for Lampard to get up the pitch, Toure does it, as do Khedira and Modric, but like i said in another thread they have to develop an understanding where when one attacks the other one holds. Although Lampard was getting too far foward yesterday. What will be the death of us is if we don't have a striker scoring. Goals win games....

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

You're always going to have defensive problems, and i don't expect us to dominate in attack, and you can't do it unless you have possession and win the ball back. Mikel will get overrun in midfield and we've seen it happen time and time again. Lampard is too attacking oriented, he did it for 4 months last season, but he can't do it for the rest of his career, reason being he's an attacking player, he will always be looking to get up the pitch. Don't know how you can even say that, there's much bigger problems than our pivot?, our pivot will be the death of us if we don't get new players and I'm deadly serious about that.

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be next summer.