Eden Hazard

[NikkiCFC 7,942]

Won CL in 2012 and 2021. Hazard and Willian spent 7 years each here in between. Coincidence we never did it with them? 

[R2D2 368]

1 minute ago, NikkiCFC said:

Won CL in 2012 and 2021. Hazard and Willian spent 7 years each here in between. Coincidence we never did it with them? 

With Willian what you expect, if Hazard actually had players around him instead of that Brazilian he would've won it as well.

[Mário César 975]

4 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Won CL in 2012 and 2021. Hazard and Willian spent 7 years each here in between. Coincidence we never did it with them? 

coincidence i think

[robsblubot 3,502]

11 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Won CL in 2012 and 2021. Hazard and Willian spent 7 years each here in between. Coincidence we never did it with them? 

No, it wasn’t. Eden calls himself laidback, and it is known he is even more so in training. That’s not what gets you silverware. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

No, it wasn’t. Eden calls himself laidback, and it is known he is even more so in training. That’s not what gets you silverware. 

It's not just that. We are now also a much more well rounded side as opposed to one who is solely reliant on one player like Hazard.

On top of that, we played under managers who were/are seemingly out of touch when it comes to competing in Europe. Mourinho's approach was largely just parking the bus and hope an individual did something to win the game while Conte's tactical inflexibility has led to him having a poor record in the Champions League.

That being said, Tuchel has made us play in a way that is not too different from what we used to or are seeing see under Mourinho or Conte but he's able to marry this pragmatic approach with more modern tactical tweaks and adjustments. 

[robsblubot 3,502]

33 minutes ago, Jas said:

It's not just that. We are now also a much more well rounded side as opposed to one who is solely reliant on one player like Hazard.

On top of that, we played under managers who were/are seemingly out of touch when it comes to competing in Europe. Mourinho's approach was largely just parking the bus and hope an individual did something to win the game while Conte's tactical inflexibility has led to him having a poor record in the Champions League.

That being said, Tuchel has made us play in a way that is not too different from what we used to or are seeing see under Mourinho or Conte but he's able to marry this pragmatic approach with more modern tactical tweaks and adjustments. 

sure, but my point was that had Eden been more disciplined and focused, there wouldn't be a reason for him not to fit in any strategy or approach. He'd also be a much better players as result.

[Jase 43,479]

9 hours ago, robsblubot said:

sure, but my point was that had Eden been more disciplined and focused, there wouldn't be a reason for him not to fit in any strategy or approach. He'd also be a much better players as result.

I know but our approach also made a difference. Under Mourinho, Conte and Sarri, it was basically about relying on one player in Hazard. Not the case with this team we have now and it's for the better.

[killer1257 3,282]

We could have easily made it into another CL final with Hazard, but Morata and Cesc bottled it against Atletico Madrid. Hazard was insane in that match. If we had a better striker back then, we would have reached another final. Does not mean we would have won that, but Hazard was not the reason we did not reach another final. Guys like Morata, Willian and Cesc bottled it

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

We could have easily made it into another CL final with Hazard, but Morata and Cesc bottled it against Atletico Madrid. Hazard was insane in that match. If we had a better striker back then, we would have reached another final. Does not mean we would have won that, but Hazard was not the reason we did not reach another final. Guys like Morata, Willian and Cesc bottled it

Atletico Madrid? Are you talking about 2014? We didn't even have Morata and Fabregas back then yet. 

Or if you're talking about 2016, that was only in the group stage. A long way from the final.

[killer1257 3,282]

9 minutes ago, Jas said:

Atletico Madrid? Are you talking about 2014? We didn't even have Morata and Fabregas back then yet. 

Or if you're talking about 2016, that was only in the group stage. A long way from the final.

I think I am mixing both matches up today 😂😂😂

[Mário César 975]

8 hours ago, killer1257 said:

We could have easily made it into another CL final with Hazard, but Morata and Cesc bottled it against Atletico Madrid. Hazard was insane in that match. If we had a better striker back then, we would have reached another final. Does not mean we would have won that, but Hazard was not the reason we did not reach another final. Guys like Morata, Willian and Cesc bottled it

My brain after read this post loool

[robsblubot 3,502]

9 hours ago, Jas said:

I know but our approach also made a difference. Under Mourinho, Conte and Sarri, it was basically about relying on one player in Hazard. Not the case with this team we have now and it's for the better.

Yes absolutely, but then we go into quality too. For me, and I will be very much alone here, Eden was never good enough to have a big team playing for him. I mean, it worked in certain occasions, esp long championships like the PL, but CL where you have single-elimination games, you need all cylinders firing at all times or you go home, and Eden could never provide that: you play like you train (with same intensity or the lack thereof).

Point being is that if you have messi in your roster, it does make sense to make the team play for him, and he will even provide work rate (that's how good he is). Brazil tries to do that with Neymar and it will never work, because he does not have that last bit of quality that makes messi so special.

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

Tbf Eden could have done more in virtually every big European game we played bar a handful. He was great in a lot of the big PL games but in Europe he never done it really which is my only big big criticism of him here as well as wanting to leave two times before leaving.

I still remember all the excuses the Belgians were making for him here... he needs a better more attack minded LB, he needs a number 10, he needs to play with a more technical CF than Diego Costa, *insert another daft excuse here*, etc... at Real Madrid he is surrounded by world class/near world class players regardless of their age in virtually every position and he’s only gone and regressed significantly and crumbled under the pressure of the club. 

Obviously we cannot say its all Edens fault we didn’t do better in Europe with him and ultimately it is a team game but there were definitely moments where he didn’t do anything and the others seem to get the flack, whilst he didnt.  

[Jase 43,479]

26 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Yes absolutely, but then we go into quality too. For me, and I will be very much alone here, Eden was never good enough to have a big team playing for him. I mean, it worked in certain occasions, esp long championships like the PL, but CL where you have single-elimination games, you need all cylinders firing at all times or you go home, and Eden could never provide that: you play like you train (with same intensity or the lack thereof).

Point being is that if you have messi in your roster, it does make sense to make the team play for him, and he will even provide work rate (that's how good he is). Brazil tries to do that with Neymar and it will never work, because he does not have that last bit of quality that makes messi so special.

Don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you about Hazard there. In the 7 years he was at the club, he had only like 2 good performances in the Champions League - Maribor and Atletico. That was it. I was just making the point about us being better playing as a team rather than relying on 1-2 individuals. That can make us easily shut down. Plus, for all the faults and frustrations with our players, I like that they seem to genuinely have a strong bond with one another and there's no real big ego among them. You can see it in their social media posts, interviews and even Tuchel talks about it a lot. That can be a strong foundation as we look to win more things in the future. 

[Simon1991 225]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

Tbf Eden could have done more in virtually every big European game we played bar a handful. He was great in a lot of the big PL games but in Europe he never done it really which is my only big big criticism of him here as well as wanting to leave two times before leaving.

I still remember all the excuses the Belgians were making for him here... he needs a better more attack minded LB, he needs a number 10, he needs to play with a more technical CF than Diego Costa, *insert another daft excuse here*, etc... at Real Madrid he is surrounded by world class/near world class players regardless of their age in virtually every position and he’s only gone and regressed significantly and crumbled under the pressure of the club. 

Obviously we cannot say its all Edens fault we didn’t do better in Europe with him and ultimately it is a team game but there were definitely moments where he didn’t do anything and the others seem to get the flack, whilst he didnt.  

I strongly disagree. It is something we often hear that Eden never showed anything in CL when it mattered.

I really hate this narrative, I really do. This one is really a good example of how the opinion of a few can gain traction and add to the narrative; to finally be accepted by a larger portion of the fanbase and external fans. As it often does, it completely lacked context.

When i look back at all those matches, I don't know, I really struggle to understand how Eden got so much stick for the team's shortcomings.

 

2013-2014:

Hazard scores the 1-1 away at PSG during the quarter finals (good game overall). Second leg, comes off injured at the 18th minute.

Did not play in the first leg at Atletico (0-0). Played well in the return leg, and Mourinho expected him to single handedly carry the team forward. We played an awfully defensive 4-2-3-1 that day with Ramires-Luiz in a double pivot, Azpi/Willian on the wings and Torres upfront. He was expected to do it all by himself as too often with Mourinho, against one of the best defenses of Europe. This one is to blame on Mourinho, not Hazard who actually looked very lively in that game, and like the only man capable of making something happen.

2014-2015:

He did alright in Paris (1-1), and was our best player on the pitch during the second leg (2-2). Had a good game overall and scored his penalty to make it 2-1. This one was a close contest between two good teams, not sure how we can blame him for anything that year.

2015-2016:

We were battered collectively by the PSG that year, who were vastly superior to us as a team. Hazard was ok during those games, nothing special. Worth ,mentioning that this was during his worst season at Chelsea, where he had constant niggling injuries and could not find his form. 

2016-2017:

No CL

2017-2018:

Played as a false 9 against Barcelona (not his best position we all know that). Did not have the best game, but gave the assist for Willian. Second leg he had a good game IMO. Barca was just a different class that day with Messi on fire (and a shit Courtois).

2018-2019:

King of the Europa league and shone in the final to bid his goodbye.

 

I mean for me, he could have done better in 2015-2016 and arguably in 2017-2018. The former was a shitty season for him he we got beaten by a collectively better team, and same thing for the latter. Barcelona in 2018 was just the better team but Eden had decent games those years. The other years he was actually good, and it's really harsh to hold him accountable for the defeats without looking at this bigger picture. In 2014 you could put prime Messi in that team he would also have done jackshit. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Simon1991

[OneMoSalah 8,776]

hace 1 hora, Simon1991 dijo:

I strongly disagree. It is something we often hear that Eden never showed anything in CL when it mattered.

I really hate this narrative, I really do. This one is really a good example of how the opinion of a few can gain traction and add to the narrative; to finally be accepted by a larger portion of the fanbase and external fans. As it often does, it completely lacked context.

When i look back at all those matches, I don't know, I really struggle to understand how Eden got so much stick for the team's shortcomings.

 

2013-2014:

Hazard scores the 1-1 away at PSG during the quarter finals (good game overall). Second leg, comes off injured at the 18th minute.

Did not play in the first leg at Atletico (0-0). Played well in the return leg, and Mourinho expected him to single handedly carry the team forward. We played an awfully defensive 4-2-3-1 that day with Ramires-Luiz in a double pivot, Azpi/Willian on the wings and Torres upfront. He was expected to do it all by himself as too often with Mourinho, against one of the best defenses of Europe. This one is to blame on Mourinho, not Hazard who actually looked very lively in that game, and like the only man capable of making something happen.

2014-2015:

He did alright in Paris (1-1), and was our best player on the pitch during the second leg (2-2). Had a good game overall and scored his penalty to make it 2-1. This one was a close contest between two good teams, not sure how we can blame him for anything that year.

2015-2016:

We were battered collectively by the PSG that year, who were vastly superior to us as a team. Hazard was ok during those games, nothing special. Worth ,mentioning that this was during his worst season at Chelsea, where he had constant niggling injuries and could not find his form. 

2016-2017:

No CL

2017-2018:

Played as a false 9 against Barcelona (not his best position we all know that). Did not have the best game, but gave the assist for Willian. Second leg he had a good game IMO. Barca was just a different class that day with Messi on fire (and a shit Courtois).

2018-2019:

King of the Europa league and shone in the final to bid his goodbye.

 

I mean for me, he could have done better in 2015-2016 and arguably in 2017-2018. The former was a shitty season for him he we got beaten by a collectively better team, and same thing for the latter. Barcelona in 2018 was just the better team but Eden had decent games those years. The other years he was actually good, and it's really harsh to hold him accountable for the defeats without looking at this bigger picture. In 2014 you could put prime Messi in that team he would also have done jackshit. 

I disagree completely.

The EL games unfortunately, at that level, for his talent doing well against the likes of Slavia Prague, BATE Borisov, Vidi, PAOK, Malmo, Dynamo Kiev or whoever else isn’t exactly a good barometer... calling him king of the Europa League is laughable because he should of been able to play that level at 25% of his talent easily.

He certainly didn’t set the world alight for us in the CL compared to what he did in the big games in the PL, I really don’t know what games you watched. I mean if that level was acceptable for you I don’t know. Look he got 8 goals in 23 CL games for us, 2404 minutes, maybe tells half a story but considering the big players the Ronaldo’s, the Messi’s, the Neymar’s, the Bale’s, the Lewandowski’s, guys who he was close to in terms of their level, got that more or less every CL campaign.

So to feel that Eden underachieved in the CL for us is not exactly harsh or untrue. Specially for his talent and then for his records v Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City in the PL and domestic cups.

Edited May 30, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Simon1991 225]

1 hour ago, OneMoSalah said:

I disagree completely.

The EL games unfortunately, at that level, for his talent doing well against the likes of Slavia Prague, BATE Borisov, Vidi, PAOK, Malmo, Dynamo Kiev or whoever else isn’t exactly a good barometer... calling him king of the Europa League is laughable because he should of been able to play that level at 25% of his talent easily.

He certainly didn’t set the world alight for us in the CL compared to what he did in the big games in the PL, I really don’t know what games you watched. I mean if that level was acceptable for you I don’t know. Look he got 8 goals in 23 CL games for us, 2404 minutes, maybe tells half a story but considering the big players the Ronaldo’s, the Messi’s, the Neymar’s, the Bale’s, the Lewandowski’s, guys who he was close to in terms of their level, got that more or less every CL campaign.

So to feel that Eden underachieved in the CL for us is not exactly harsh or untrue. Specially for his talent and then for his records v Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City in the PL and domestic cups.

What I really meant by that is that we had nothing to judge that year in terms of CL performance, i could have just placed "no CL" as well. 

He has scored more goals and has had a bigger impact in PL, but what i am trying to say is that in some of those games in which he did not dominate, he was absolutely not set up in the right conditions to do so. How can we expect him to shine against atletico for instance, when he had to play with Azpi as a left winger and Ramirez/Luiz in the middle of the park?

Also, you can't really compare Neymar's contributions with Hazard during those seasons, IMO. Neymar got to play in an extremely prolific offensive systems along with Messi/Suarez when Hazard was too often the only real offensive weapon (c.f example above vs atletico). You can technically compare those numbers, but it's a skewed comparison.

I think it's fair to assume that Neymar in our system would have struggled just the same, and that Hazard would have shone in that Barcelona, but it's foot fiction and we'll never know. 

I can certainly understand why some people would say that, but i think it fails to take the context of those performances into account. That's actually why i took the time to go over all those elimination games individually. Looking at each individual performances, he had some good performances and some ok ones, but those were games where the team as whole struggled a lot, or where we were exclusively set-up to defend. You could say, yeah but that exactly why he needed him to step up, fair enough, but baring Messi/Ronaldo, who's done that on a regular basis, and who has done it in team similar to the Chelsea ones?

Neymar? Saw his games against City when his team struggled, or against Bayern last year? What did he achieve?

Lewandoski/Bale? Yes they're clutcher than Hazard I agree, but they also both play/played in very well oiled offensive systems, contrary to Hazard.

[Blue Armour 4,278]

Not sure what impact Carlo will have on Madrid, but have a feeling he will have a positive impact on Hazard, just like he had on Drogba back in 09-10.