Eden Hazard

[The Skipper 20,593]

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with players' talent?

I agree...

Zlatan, Cesc, Yaya Toure etc. all lost favour at Barcelona, doesn't mean they aren't fantastic players.

One thing all of those have in common with Alexis is that they've all been restricted by the Barcelona tiki taka system. Alexis can be a 20 goal a season player but he isn't being used correctly by Barcelona IMO, just like Zlatan wasn't, Yaya wasn't, and Cesc as well. He needs to leave.

And Neymar hasn't really done much in Europe yet. In European football Alexis has definitely outperformed Neymar.

[Rom2013 446]

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with players' talent?

It says that he is at best one more player in Barcelona, Believe me when I say that Barcelona fans see Barcelona games, and know how their players play. Alexis is a really good player, I would buy him for Chelsea, and before the world cup I said it here (maybe today is a little more difficult because he is playing well in the WC), but he will be a star player in a team like TOttenham or Atletico or even Milan nowadays.

In big clubs he will be one more player... And Hazard is a lot better than Alexis in my opinion.

Even Ibrahimovic is not a player to win a Ballon D'Or and Fabregas also, they are great but... and people liked Etoo and Ibra, the problem with them was another one. Both of them had problems with Guardiola and Messi and obviouslly they couldn't continue in the team.

The problem with Alexis is that he is not that good and Barcelona needs money to buy another players. One thing is talent another thing is the performance of the player in one game, in one competition or in one season.

Even with a bad and difficult season Neymar had good numbers in Barcelona(he was not in the starting eleven a lot of times), he leads Brazil with quality, and scored a lot of goals in Brazil in the past. Bale did it well in Madrid even with a lot of games out, he did it perfect in Tottenham. And both are young, in the first season out of their country, and already have something great to show in their past. No other young player can say that.

ANd more important when you look at their numbers they will definately score 20/30 goals per season in the future in a consistent way. SOmething no other winger today will do.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

It says that he is at best one more player in Barcelona, Believe me when I say that Barcelona fans see Barcelona games, and know how their players play. Alexis is a really good player, I would buy him for Chelsea, and before the world cup I said it here (maybe today is a little more difficult because he is playing well in the WC), but he will be a star player in a team like TOttenham or Atletico or even Milan nowadays.

In big clubs he will be one more player... And Hazard is a lot better than Alexis i my opinion.

Even Ibrahimovic is not a player to win a Ballon D'Or and Fabregas also, they are great but... and people liked Etoo and Ibra, the problem with them was another one.

Again, what does it have to do with talent? There have been many amazing Barcelona players disliked by fans/team/manager and sold below their true market value. It means nothing. As The Skipper said above, they just weren't used properly. In a team built around them, they would have shined--and do shine.

By the way, my wife is a Barcelona fan, so I watched a lot of their games, too, so it's a weak argument.

Actually, I think both Ibrahimovic and Fabregas have the talent to win Ballon D'Or, but it's impossible in the same team as Messi, and I'm not convinced that Hazard wouldn't be just "one more player" at Barcelona--just like Alexis, Ibrahimovic, Fabregas, Yaya Toure, etc. Very few talents fit in Barcelona's system, and even those that do become nothing but "just one more player" after Messi.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

And when Bale was scoring 21 goals in the Premiere League it was all luck (with the same age Hazard has less 10 goals without penaltys)... or because of the great players he had in the team.

Bale started 24 games in Madrid for the League, he was not in the stating eleven in 14 games(Neymar started 19, half the games in La Liga). And he has that numbers. The numbers Ronaldo and Messi have are only comparable with the ones Bale and Neymar have.

No they're not comparable they may have played less games but even taking that in consideration they still don't come close to the numbers of Messi and ronaldo.

Bale : 32 games (7) 21 goals, 16 assists

Neymar : 28 games (8) 13 goals, 11 assists

Messi : 36 games (2) 36 goals, 11 assists (note that this is one of Messi's poorest seasons in a while.

C Ronaldo : 41 games 48 goals, 13 assists

How exactly are Bale and Neymar's numbers comparable to that off Ronaldo and Messi ?

Why is it that when you compare Neymar and Bale's numbers to that off Hazard's you completely ignore the difference in system (attacking oriented system vs defensive oriented system) and the difference in leagues (Primera division vs Premier league) ?

I mean those things play a big role.

[MrBlueGuy 1,552]

Bale is atm a better player than Hazard imo, same with Neymar but both just barely ahead not massively like CR7/Messi.

[Joker10 946]

They are. Messi and Ronaldo basically highly impact games every game - Bale doesn't do it as consistently as either.

No one is on their level or close to it IMO.

I personally think Zlatan and Suarez are on CR7 and Messi level and at the very least close to it.

[Rom2013 446]

No they're not comparable they may have played less games but even taking that in consideration they still don't come close to the numbers of Messi and ronaldo.

Bale : 32 games (7) 21 goals, 16 assists

Neymar : 28 games (8) 13 goals, 11 assists

Messi : 36 games (2) 36 goals, 11 assists (note that this is one of Messi's poorest seasons in a while.

C Ronaldo : 41 games 48 goals, 13 assists

How exactly are Bale and Neymar's numbers comparable to that off Ronaldo and Messi ?

Why is it that when you compare Neymar and Bale's numbers to that off Hazard's you completely ignore the difference in system (attacking oriented system vs defensive oriented system) and the difference in leagues (Primera division vs Premier league) ?

I mean those things play a big role.

Tell me how many wingers do you know scoring more than 20 goals in League in big countries (England, Spain, Italy and Germany, if you can't find many you can also check Portugal, France and Holland or Brazil for example) in the the past 10 or 15 years with no penaltys.

I can start that list:

Messi (is a false nine, but he was a winger some years ago)

Cristiano

Bale

Let's see how many we can find.

You are telling me that Tottenham plays a lot more attacking football than Chelsea.

This is one of the worst seasons of Messi but he played a lot more than Neymar for example even with a big injury.

[LukakutoStamford 779]

Continuing to compare Hazard's ability to score goals against other players is ridiculous. Bale is a better scorer because that's one of his top strengths. Hazard is playmaking wing so I have no idea why people get so mesmerzied by his goal scoring numbers. Hazard created the most chances of any player in the PL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and Serie A.

People need to understand that Hazard is never going to be a goal scorer like the top goal scoring strikers/wingers. His ceiling might by 25 goals in a PL season and that might even be a too high a number. Hazard is a 15-20 goal and 15-20 assist type of player. He's a lot more Zidane than Messi so his stats will never measure up in terms of goals, but when you see he creates the most chances of any top European player and he has the most dribbles and then you watch the nuances of his game and the brilliance of his play you can better understand why he's one of the best players in the world.

Again he's not above criticism but criticizing him for not being more like Messi or CR7 is patently absurd.

He does need to perform better and he can,but god forbid if he actually had similar talent around him like Messi has had at Barcelona and Ronaldo has had at Madrid or Robben/Ribery have had Bayern.

The guy is a brilliant footballer and so much of his style and decision making goes unappreciated because people get too wrapped in goals and assists as a measure of value rather creation. Hazard really should have had 10 more assists this season for Chelsea.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Tell me how many wingers do you know scoring more than 20 goals in League in big countries (England, Spain, Italy and Germany, if you can't find many you can also check Portugal, France and Holland or Brazil for example) in the the past 10 or 15 years with no penaltys.

I can start that list:

Messi (is a false nine, but he was a winger some years ago)

Cristiano

Bale

Let's see how many we can find.

You are telling me that Tottenham plays a lot more attacking football than Chelsea.

This is one of the worst seasons of Messi but he played a lot more than Neymar for example even with a big injury.

Like i said before scoring more then 20 goals isn't Messi, Ronaldo level. Having a hand in over 50 goals by either scoring or assisting is. I'm not saying Bale isn't a quality player but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Messi or Ronaldo.

No i'm not i was clearly talking about Bale's season at Real Madrid but if you wanna talk about Bale in the PL.

He only had 1 season in the PL where he scored more then 20 goals (21 goals, 4 assists) The season before that he "only" had 9 goals and 10 assists. Before you say he was younger. Hazard at the same age (21/22) had 9 goals and 11 assists in the PL.

Don't really get your last sentence. Messi played 36 games 2 subs while Neymar played 28 games with 8 subs. 8 games difference but Messi outscored Neymar by 23 goals. I don't think Neymar would have scored 23 goals,or anything close to that, in those 8 games and this was still one of Messi's worst seasons in a while.

Also we've been talking about numbers this whole time but apart from this whole discussion about assists and goals i just like players like Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard, Neymar more then Bale.

Messi and Hazard i love the way they just glide past their defenders and Neymar and Ronaldo have that trickery to completely wrongfoot defenders.

Bale just knocks balls past defenders and then runs after it. I just find Bale less enjoyable to watch. Bale just doesn't have the same level of trickery, technique, ballcontrol.

[thedrog108 39]

I personally think Zlatan and Suarez are on CR7 and Messi level and at the very least close to it.

Zlatan ? good player for the show but when everybody need him in champions league he disappear(Juve 0 vs 2 liverpool - Inter 0 vs 2 Liverpool - Inter 0 vs 2 man united - Barcelona 1 vs 3 inter) . Messi show him at barca he was too strong for him. Zlatan is good for the league when he has a top player behind him. But it's my opinion

[Rom2013 446]

Like i said before scoring more then 20 goals isn't Messi, Ronaldo level. Having a hand in over 50 goals by either scoring or assisting is. I'm not saying Bale isn't a quality player but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Messi or Ronaldo.

No i'm not i was clearly talking about Bale's season at Real Madrid but if you wanna talk about Bale in the PL.

He only had 1 season in the PL where he scored more then 20 goals (21 goals, 4 assists) The season before that he "only" had 9 goals and 10 assists. Before you say he was younger. Hazard at the same age (21/22) had 9 goals and 11 assists in the PL.

Don't really get your last sentence. Messi played 36 games 2 subs while Neymar played 28 games with 8 subs. 8 games difference but Messi outscored Neymar by 23 goals. I don't think Neymar would have scored 23 goals,or anything close to that, in those 8 games and this was still one of Messi's worst seasons in a while.

Also we've been talking about numbers this whole time but apart from this whole discussion about assists and goals i just like players like Messi, Ronaldo, Hazard, Neymar more then Bale.

Messi and Hazard i love the way they just glide past their defenders and Neymar and Ronaldo have that trickery to completely wrongfoot defenders.

Bale just knocks balls past defenders and then runs after it. I just find Bale less enjoyable to watch. Bale just doesn't have the same level of trickery, technique, ballcontrol.

About Messi and Neymar...Messi have a diference between in games of something like 8 games, 6 penaltys for Messi, Neymar in Barcelona doesn't take set pieces and he is a specialist but he have there Xavi and Messi, he started half the games, had a lot of problems there... of course Messi is better than Neymar but Neymar is really young, and he for example scored 35 goals for the national team in Brazil, he was by far the best player in south America with at the age of 18 or 19, Neymar is special.And in the next seasons he will reach almost that numbers, there is no doubt about it. And for example if you have a winger that without penaltys score 20 goals and other that scores 10 there is no doubt about who is the best.

This is not about what is more wonderful or not, it's about efficiency. And a great player like RObben can't compete with Messi or Ronaldo, the same way a great player like Hazard playing the way he plays he can't compete with Bale or Neymar.

There is any doubt thar in the next years if Neymar and Bale play 30 games in the starting eleven they will make 25 goals per season at least?

[thedrog108 39]

Why robben can't compete with ronaldo ?

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

About Messi and Neymar...Messi have a diference between in games of something like 8 games, 6 penaltys for Messi, Neymar in Barcelona doesn't take set pieces and he is a specialist but he have there Xavi and Iniesta, he started half the games, had a lot of problems there... of course Messi is better than Neymar but Neymar is really young, and he for example scored 35 goals for the national team in Brazil, he was by far the best player in south America with at the age of 18 or 19, Neymar is special.And in the next seasons he will reach almost that numbers, there is no doubt about it. And for example if you have a winger that without penaltys score 20 goals and other that scores 10 there is no doubt about who is the best.

This is not about what is more wonderful or not, it's about efficiency. And a great player like RObben can't compete with Messi or Ronaldo, the same way a great player like Hazard playing the way he plays he can't compete with Bale or Neymar.

There is any doubt thar in the next years if Neymar and Bale play 30 games in the starting eleven they will make 25 goals per season at least?

I disagree. I doubt he'll reach those numbers (or any player for that matter) To be clear i'm talking about scoring 40 goals and assisting 10.

Disagree goals alone don't decide who is the best. Like Lukakutostamford said Bale and Neymar will score more goals but Hazard creates more chances for his teammates and will have more balanced numbers then Neymar and Bale.

That doesn't make him a lesser player then those 2.

On your last sentence no i think both Neymar and Bale will reach those 25 goals with 10-15 assists in the next seasons

but i could turn it around and say is there any doubt Hazard will make 20 goals, 20 assists per season in the next seasons at least ?

Cause i have no doubts about that.

[Jase 43,479]

I know forum is all about discussion/debates but how is it, without fail, that this thread always somehow turned into the same repetitive/redundant 'Hazard vs Neymar vs Bale vs Ronaldo vs Messi' discussion?

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I know forum is all about discussion/debates but how is it, without fail, that this thread always somehow turned into the same repetitive/redundant 'Hazard vs Neymar vs Bale vs Ronaldo vs Messi' discussion?

It's quite normal to compare players. Ronaldo and Messi are the best players so people will always compare the upcoming, young talented players to them.

,

I don't really see a problem. The discussions have been calm and people have put in some good arguments and counter arguments and no one is insulting eachother. It's all good.

Also it's offseason what else are we supposed to do !!!

[Joker10 946]

Zlatan ? good player for the show but when everybody need him in champions league he disappear(Juve 0 vs 2 liverpool - Inter 0 vs 2 Liverpool - Inter 0 vs 2 man united - Barcelona 1 vs 3 inter)

Well i somewhat agree he has not had an impressive CL career, but last few years that has changed.

Messi show him at barca he was too strong for him.

I am sure you are aware of the fallout Ibra had with Pep and aware of Messi influence as La Masia product and all that. Not going into that lengthy discussion.

Zlatan is good for the league when he has a top player behind him.

elaborate please

Zlatan always been on a team where he had to carry, except his early days at Juve.

Messi has a had a better supporting cast then anyone else at Barcelona. Couldn't ask for a better Midfield trio of Xavi, Ineista, and Busequets. Perception is that Messi has declined this season, but Barca is nowhere as dominant on the ball anymore mostly due to Xavi decline+age.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Continuing to compare Hazard's ability to score goals02against other players is ridiculous. Bale is a better scorer because that's one of his top strengths. Hazard is playmaking wing so I have no idea why people get so mesmerzied by his goal scoring numbers.02 Hazard created the most chances of any player in the PL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Ligue 1, and Serie A.

02

People need to understand that02Hazard is never going to be a goal scorer like the top goal scoring strikers/wingers. His ceiling might by 25 goals in a PL season and02that might even be a too high a02number.02Hazard is02a 15-20 goal and0215-20 assist type of player. He's a lot more Zidane than Messi so his stats will never measure up in terms of goals, but when you see he creates the most chances of any top European player and he has the most dribbles and then you watch the nuances of his game and the brilliance of his play you can better understand why he's one of the best players in the world.

Again he's not above criticism but criticizing him for not being more like Messi or CR7 is patently absurd.

02

He does need to perform better and he can,but god forbid02if he actually had02similar talent around him02like Messi has had at Barcelona and Ronaldo has had at Madrid or Robben/Ribery have had Bayern.

02

The guy is a brilliant footballer and so much of his style and decision making goes unappreciated because people get too wrapped in goals and assists as a measure of value rather creation. Hazard really should have had 10 more assists this season for Chelsea.

That bold part is exactly what I said a few pages ago. Hazard creates more than he scores, he is not a true winger I appreciate his talent more because players like zidane/ronaldinho were my favorite players.

I said his qualities will be maximized if he plays in the center because he is more of a fast iniesta than a bale/robben/sanchez and trust me all those players will not reach iniesta/hazard at their peaks.

Why do I say he is more like iniesta than bale/robben? Its simple. Hazard doesn't make runs for others to pass ball into space, he doesn't go direct into the 18box looking to score like bale/robben, if you watch games with iniesta on the wings, u'll see a carbon copy of slower hazard.

Hazard needs more touches of the ball to show his true self. Him playing on the wings and not touching ball much for long periods is not showing his full potential IMO.

[Jase 43,479]

It's quite normal to compare players. Ronaldo and Messi are the best players so people will always compare the upcoming, young talented players to them.

,

I don't really see a problem. The discussions have been calm and people have put in some good arguments and counter arguments and no one is insulting eachother. It's all good.

Also it's offseason what else are we supposed to do !!!

I know I know but don't people get tired of discussing the same old thing every single time?