Politics & Stuff

[kmk108 1,186]

[Fernando 6,585]

5 hours ago, kmk108 said:

That's why the US supports Israel, but I don't personally support any country in the conflict. It's tribalism, simple as. Both Israel and Palestine have done horrible things during this conflict, and I'm not going to stand by one or the other just because my country supports one.

To clarify, I'm not talking about politicians like Ken Livingstone. I'm talking about a regular person. Of course politicians in western countries will support Israel, as they have a common "enemy".  

 

Yeah pretty much. But I do have to say that the support is not as strong as before. Otherwise they wouldn't have done the Iranian deal. 

Which to be fair I'm still perplexed at that. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

When will this nonsense talking point about Israel being a democracy go away. There are literally millions of people that Israel controls either through military in Gaza or government in the West Bank who have zero say in who controls their future.

Heck, even Lebanon is more democratic than Israel  I mean, sure, we now have a couple of million Syrian refugees who have no say in government but at least we don't massacre them whenever the heck we feel like it just to make a political point. We don't have segregated roads and check points for them, we don't detain Syrian minors, we don't force them to go through military courts...etc.

 

8 hours ago, kmk108 said:

That's why the US supports Israel, but I don't personally support any country in the conflict. It's tribalism, simple as. Both Israel and Palestine have done horrible things during this conflict, and I'm not going to stand by one or the other just because my country supports one.

To clarify, I'm not talking about politicians like Ken Livingstone. I'm talking about a regular person. Of course politicians in western countries will support Israel, as they have a common "enemy".  

Mate, that's like saying that the native Americans and the European colonizers were equally brutal. Equating the oppressor with the oppressed is siding with the oppressor.

 

 

Anyway, on the US elections, it's now an inevitable Hillary presidency, which was the worst possible option, imo. She'll get the backing of the GOP establishment (because she's basically a neocon) and win by a land slide against Trump. And then a few more hundred thousand people die in the middle east...

[Fernando 6,585]

4 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

When will this nonsense talking point about Israel being a democracy go away. There are literally millions of people that Israel controls either through military in Gaza or government in the West Bank who have zero say in who controls their future.

Heck, even Lebanon is more democratic than Israel  I mean, sure, we now have a couple of million Syrian refugees who have no say in government but at least we don't massacre them whenever the heck we feel like it just to make a political point. We don't have segregated roads and check points for them, we don't detain Syrian minors, we don't force them to go through military courts...etc.

 

Mate, that's like saying that the native Americans and the European colonizers were equally brutal. Equating the oppressor with the oppressed is siding with the oppressor.

 

 

Anyway, on the US elections, it's now an inevitable Hillary presidency, which was the worst possible option, imo. She'll get the backing of the GOP establishment (because she's basically a neocon) and win by a land slide against Trump. And then a few more hundred thousand people die in the middle east...

Yes but in other countries like Iran it's totally worse. 

There's no freedom over there especially freedom of religion. You have to be Muslim and that's that. Christian get persecuted. 

As to per the disjointed standards between people I wonder if that is because of tensions? 

It's like for example in the temple mount a jew is not able to go to pray. Otherwise some riot will brake out.... 

 

[Fernando 6,585]

I think problem with Israel is that they are too nice. 

When they won the six day war they had total control of Jerusalem but they trying to be nice to the Muslim gave the temple mount to Muslim control.....

I'm like hello you won the war your land now.

That's has always been the rules of war as far as I can remember. You wind land by being the winner in the war.

Then Israel wants to be even more nice in giving land away. Like giving the west bank.

So this has been the major problem for me with Israel. They try to be too nice and in the process screw everything up.

And of course USA does this same thing.  Goes to war with a country and tries to establish a democracy which creates more problems and hate..... 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

2 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Yes but in other countries like Iran it's totally worse. 

There's no freedom over there especially freedom of religion. You have to be Muslim and that's that. Christian get persecuted. 

As to per the disjointed standards between people I wonder if that is because of tensions? 

It's like for example in the temple mount at jew is not able to go to pray. Otherwise some riot will brake out.... 

That's actually just wrong about Iran. They don't have a real democracy, true, but they do have a sort of quasi-democracy. Iranians do vote and have fair elections and their votes make a genuine difference, but the system is a way such that some of the major decisions are still taken by the Ayatollah without any accountability to the people.

That's not to defend of course the Iranian 'democracy', but saying that they don't have a democracy at all is just factually wrong. Their human rights record is one of the worst on the planet as well, but again, saying that there is no freedom there is just inaccurate. 

The part about religious freedom in particular is just baseless. While the vast majority of the citizens are Shia muslims, Iran does have scores of other religious minorities living there including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians....etc. and to my knowledge they all have full rights and representation. 

Of course the situation might not be ideal, as is the case for minorities almost anywhere, but certainly minorities such as Jews in Iran have A LOT more freedom and rights in Iran than most Palestinians have in Israel, be it Muslims or Christian. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

3 minutes ago, Fernando said:

I think problem with Israel is that they are too nice. 

When they won the six day war they had total control of Jerusalem but they trying to be nice to the Muslim gave the temple mount to Muslim control.....

I'm like hello you won the war your land now.

That's has always been the rules of war as far as I can remember. You wind land by being the winner in the war.

Then Israel wants to be even more nice in giving land away. Like giving the west bank.

So this has been the major problem for me with Israel. They try to be too nice and in the process screw everything up.

And of course USA does this same thing.  Goes to war with a country and tries to establish a democracy which creates more problems and hate..... 

Yeah, that's the problem! Got absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, occupation  and massacres against the natives for political and economic gains... 

[Fernando 6,585]

18 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

Yeah, that's the problem! Got absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, occupation  and massacres against the natives for political and economic gains... 

Well your a student of history I presume. 

How did Mohammed took power? By his words or sword? How did the Ottoman took power? By their words or sword? 

And how did they lost power? 

By their words or the sword? 

So as you can see that has been the way all these empire took and lost control of land. 

USA and Israel on the other hand they are too nice and instead of completely owning everything as Ottoman Empire did they try to give back to the local in order to apiece. And that as you see with Iraq creates more problems. 

Now if it was say China that came to war with say Iran they would be merciless. Totally annihilate and declare that it's China territory. 

[Fernando 6,585]

16 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

That's actually just wrong about Iran. They don't have a real democracy, true, but they do have a sort of quasi-democracy. Iranians do vote and have fair elections and their votes make a genuine difference, but the system is a way such that some of the major decisions are still taken by the Ayatollah without any accountability to the people.

That's not to defend of course the Iranian 'democracy', but saying that they don't have a democracy at all is just factually wrong. Their human rights record is one of the worst on the planet as well, but again, saying that there is no freedom there is just inaccurate. 

The part about religious freedom in particular is just baseless. While the vast majority of the citizens are Shia muslims, Iran does have scores of other religious minorities living there including Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians....etc. and to my knowledge they all have full rights and representation. 

Of course the situation might not be ideal, as is the case for minorities almost anywhere, but certainly minorities such as Jews in Iran have A LOT more freedom and rights in Iran than most Palestinians have in Israel, be it Muslims or Christian. 

Your knowledge should do some checking. Cause as far as I know a Christian can live better in Israel then Iran. 

In Iran they have to be underground. And if a Muslim converts to Christianity it's a major problem. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

7 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Well your a student of history I presume. 

How did Mohammed took power? By his words or sword? How did the Ottoman took power? By their words or sword? 

And how did they lost power? 

By their words or the sword? 

So as you can see that has been the way all these empire took and lost control of land. 

USA and Israel on the other hand they are too nice and instead of completely owning everything as Ottoman Empire did they try to give back to the local in order to apiece. And that as you see with Iraq creates more problems. 

Now if it was say China that came to war with say Iran they would be merciless. Totally annihilate and declare that it's China territory. 

Putting aside the 'questionable' moral values in that as well as the very obvious problems in the analogies such as assuming that what Mohammed or the Ottomans or Romans or whatever did was acceptable and moral, there is a main and pretty obvious issue with that which cannot be overlooked: This isn't the year 600! The ages of colonialism and imperialism is, or at least should be, over. It is no longer acceptable to conquer lands and kill people for imperialist and economic gains. There are international laws against that.

 

14 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Your knowledge should do some checking. Cause as far as I know a Christian can live better in Israel then Iran. 

In Iran they have to be underground. And if a Muslim converts to Christianity it's a major problem. 

Well then let's present some proof. I'll start: In Iran, Christianity is recognized as one of the official religions in the state along with Judaism, Zoroastrianism and obviously Islam. iirc, Christian have 3 seats in the Iranian parliament. On the other hand, Christians in Gaza are bombed indiscriminately by Israel just like Muslims, and Palestinian Christians in the West Bank are subjugated segregation, apartheid and systemic racism. 60 minutes did a report on it a couple of years back: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5p8mZ-HN-0 

[Fernando 6,585]

39 minutes ago, CHOULO19 said:

Putting aside the 'questionable' moral values in that as well as the very obvious problems in the analogies such as assuming that what Mohammed or the Ottomans or Romans or whatever did was acceptable and moral, there is a main and pretty obvious issue with that which cannot be overlooked: This isn't the year 600! The ages of colonialism and imperialism is, or at least should be, over. It is no longer acceptable to conquer lands and kill people for imperialist and economic gains. There are international laws against that.

 

Well then let's present some proof. I'll start: In Iran, Christianity is recognized as one of the official religions in the state along with Judaism, Zoroastrianism and obviously Islam. iirc, Christian have 3 seats in the Iranian parliament. On the other hand, Christians in Gaza are bombed indiscriminately by Israel just like Muslims, and Palestinian Christians in the West Bank are subjugated segregation, apartheid and systemic racism. 60 minutes did a report on it a couple of years back: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5p8mZ-HN-0 

Moral values is not what I'm arguing. 

Of course its wrong. But I'm saying as an empire that goes to war and control land that has been a major problem these two countries have. 

As to per international law.... Let me ask you,  Who puts the international laws? And who enforce them? 

See law comes from someone that has power. If that power does not uphold the law then what kind of law is it? 

Who is the one that will uphold the international law? How well are they enforcing? 

And proof for Iran Christian well I'll also give you a YouTube video. 

 

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

Quite interesting but it's hardly earth shattering news that Donald Trump is a man of few words.

https://youtu.be/_aFo_BV-UzI

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

1 hour ago, Iggy Doonican said:

Quite interesting but it's hardly earth shattering news that Donald Trump is a man of few words.

https://youtu.be/_aFo_BV-UzI

and apparently of few hair follicles as well

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

and apparently of few hair follicles as well

I might have posted this before it's brilliant. I'd love to know what that geezer at 2.55 says.

https://youtu.be/oBuW1n9vdFg

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

47 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

I might have posted this before it's brilliant. I'd love to know what that geezer at 2.55 says.

https://youtu.be/oBuW1n9vdFg

hahaha cant stop laughing at that

''a guinea pig looking through the port hole of a washing machine''.

bloke at 2 55 saying something like ''Trump is da champ''. Think he has 6 fingers and starred in Deliverance''