Politics & Stuff

[Fernando 6,468]

Just because you had land taken from you, it doenst mean it was Brazil who did it.

Like I said, we are no saints and we have taken land from a few neighbors. However, think before posting shit because Brazil never came near your country!

Besides, Uruguay had land taken away from them? LOL. They werent even a country to begin with. England just created it so Brazil and Argentina would stop fighting for Rio de la Plata Basin. They were never bigger then they are today...

Like I said Ecuador was bigger.

Something a long these lines:

If Egypt lost that 6th day war, how come they got their land back??!!!!! You need to read much more Fernando.

I meant that because of this war in which different nations came against Israel, it actually expanded their borders.

Is that not right?

[Fernando 6,468]

Right. read a bit first then to figure out the "whatever it was". Ive been following this conflict before you were born probably- sigh.

It started the 5th of june with a surprise attack on Egyptian airfields. Quite contrary to popular beliefs, it was no Israeli David versus Goliath. More and more people (eg. General Peled who was in charge of that war, the new historians in Israel and many more) Also, you miss context before those six days in june, the context of zionism, the aftermath leading to both intifadas. Its quite painful to see.

I dont bring a one sided argument whatsoever. I brought all the historians facts throughout the thread, awarded documentaries from both sides, scientific Paper from both Israëli's as palestinians, UN reports, independent Human right watchers etc. You just brainfart slogans and meaningless bs.

You are an ignoramus. Bye bye sir. I mean this in a thoroughly unemotional though unrespectful way. Plz just block my posts if you cannot handle a debate based on facts or if you dont brother reading what people (as i have) have written with facts, nuances galore.

Because you mix fact with things that are one sided.

Like this:

the hijacking of bus 300 in the seventies out of protest- where the palestinian hijackers were arrested and afterwards brutally killed in could blood)

You want me to side with hijackers?

No matter what the reason is, when you hijack a bus your a criminal.

There's nothing peaceful about that.

[Stingray 9,441]

Because you mix fact with things that are one sided.

Like this:

the hijacking of bus 300 in the seventies out of protest- where the palestinian hijackers were arrested and afterwards brutally killed in could blood)

You want me to side with hijackers?

No matter what the reason is, when you hijack a bus your a criminal.

There's nothing peaceful about that.

Never mind .....

You really do NOT get that the entire zionist expansion after/since 1947 was highly violent, you read that article i posted just today from a very Zionist guy admitting to several war crimes .... ?

Do you not see what 90% of the world sees now. What UN sees, what every independant observer is seeing?

Can it not be so that your view is a little wrong?

Ps : google Shin bet and bus 300. Put this into the context of a people under siege. Then say what you want. Ps: 1984 btw

Also search for the part: at 8.00 am, the morning after idf forces blew up the houses of the families of the four hikackers. Source: Moshe Arens and Avraham Shalom - both directing officers for IDF and Shin Bet.

[Fernando 6,468]

Never mind .....

You really do NOT get that the entire zionist expansion after/since 1947 was highly violent, you read that article i posted just today from a very Zionist guy admitting to several war crimes .... ?

Do you not see what 90% of the world sees now. What UN sees, what every independant observer is seeing?

Can it not be so that your view is a little wrong?

Well when you hijacked a bus I'm supposed to let it slide?

When the country is a heaven for terrorist organization is that supposed to be OK?

I ask why does Israel do this?

And all I keep seeing is that they get provoke into it by terrorist act.

See it would be a genocide if Israel came and bomb my country.

My country that has done nothing or its a heaven for terrorist organization.

They are going to war like USA at Afghanistan, and in a war environment casualties happen.

[Stingray 9,441]

Well when you hijacked a bus I'm supposed to let it slide?

When the country is a heaven for terrorist organization is that supposed to be OK?

I ask why does Israel do this?

And all I keep seeing is that they get provoke into it by terrorist act.

See it would be a genocide if Israel came and bomb my country.

My country that has done nothing or its a heaven for terrorist organization.

They are going to war like USA at Afghanistan, and in a war environment casualties happen.

Still no answer to my points. Do i tickle you? Do i make you feel uncomfortable?

A heaven for terrorists ..... Israel getting provoked. Dude, really. Get a grip and read some context on the subject. Its not like suddenly palestinians decided to shoot Rockets at their piece living neighbours. Explain Chabra and chatilah for example?

[Fernando 6,468]

Still no answer to my points. Do i tickle you? Do i make you feel uncomfortable?

What point?

That Israel gone to war against terrorism?

[Stingray 9,441]

What point?

That Israel gone to war against terrorism?

They are not. You base your point on info of the last 2-3 years. You miss all the context. This isnt bout giys shooting Rockets now... It goes waaaaayyyyy beyond that. I edited my latest posts. Check them. Also, you do know that you are de facto approving bombing densily populated area's filmde with children?

OW and dont reply if you do not go into my points as well. I adressed yours, now you have the guts to go into mine.

Plz tell me when you actually read a good source about it. Science works that way. Sources have to be good.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Like I said Ecuador was bigger.

Something a long these lines:

I meant that because of this war in which different nations came against Israel, it actually expanded their borders.

Is that not right?

You see buddy, even they way you put the sentence you show how are EXTREMELY BIASED. Maybe people who were in the conflict someway or another (like myself) can be biased because they have history. You have no excuse what so ever. Even if you are Jew (which I don't know as I never asked you), you shouldn't be biased because this is not a religious problem

The proper statement should be Israel came against other nations or Israel invaded other nations. HUUUUUGE difference as Israel was not under threat and it was an aggressors act. Listen buddy, maybe if your country gets invaded, some people will be like you and say "no problem, we lost our land, it happens", like you are expecting the Palestinians to do and the rest of the countries that Israel is occupying their lands like Jordan and Syria. But people don't do that. People will keep fighting unless they get their land back. People will fight for their existence. You happen tp be talking to one person (me) who represents the best example in the world of such people and countries. I am not trying to be cocky in any sense, but Egypt, the oldest existing civilization, could have easily ended up like Mesopotamia or MANY OTHER NATIONS, who now fail to exist, if the Egyptians stopped fighting for its land. We have been invaded, countless times by the STRONGEST NATIONS IN THE WORLD during different eras. But they got kicked out eventually, and we still exist. There are other nations and civilizations who have done the same. It is their ABSOLUTE right to fight to get their land back. REGARDLESS of how long their land was stolen from them. And no one on earth has the right to tell people to stop fighting for their land. If they surrender and give it up, then that is a different issue because it would have been a choice thy made. As far as I know, non of the nations whose lands have been stolen have surrendered. They may not be able to fight back at the mean time, but they will definitely try to come back. Maybe they will succeed maybe not, but they will keep trying.

Seriously buddy, you need to read much more and have a more " logical unbiased approach" in order to understand this conflict. As long as you base your arguments on what you think and what you believe without having to have reference, you will not be able to pass your point. Even Israelis acknowledge that the Palestinians have the right to have their land and exist (except the extremists of them). So I don't see why you would have such a radical point of view. No offense of course buddy.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Still no answer to my points. Do i tickle you? Do i make you feel uncomfortable?

A heaven for terrorists ..... Israel getting provoked. Dude, really. Get a grip and read some context on the subject. Its not like suddenly palestinians decided to shoot Rockets at their piece living neighbours. Explain Chabra and chatilah for example?

No human being can ever explain the two humanity crimes that happened their. It is a tragedy man. And absolute disgrace. The images just flashed back as soon as I read this. Painful mate, VERY PAINFUL.

[Fernando 6,468]

You see buddy, even they way you put the sentence you show how are EXTREMELY BIASED. Maybe people who were in the conflict someway or another (like myself) can be biased because they have history. You have no excuse what so ever. Even if you are Jew (which I don't know as I never asked you), you shouldn't be biased because this is not a religious problem

The proper statement should be Israel came against other nations or Israel invaded other nations. HUUUUUGE difference as Israel was not under threat and it was an aggressors act. Listen buddy, maybe if your country gets invaded, some people will be like you and say "no problem, we lost our land, it happens", like you are expecting the Palestinians to do and the rest of the countries that Israel is occupying their lands like Jordan and Syria. But people don't do that. People will keep fighting unless they get their land back. People will fight for their existence. You happen tp be talking to one person (me) who represents the best example in the world of such people and countries. I am not trying to be cocky in any sense, but Egypt, the oldest existing civilization, could have easily ended up like Mesopotamia or MANY OTHER NATIONS, who now fail to exist, if the Egyptians stopped fighting for its land. We have been invaded, countless times by the STRONGEST NATIONS IN THE WORLD during different eras. But they got kicked out eventually, and we still exist. There are other nations and civilizations who have done the same. It is their ABSOLUTE right to fight to get their land back. REGARDLESS of how long their land was stolen from them. And no one on earth has the right to tell people to stop fighting for their land. If they surrender and give it up, then that is a different issue because it would have been a choice thy made. As far as I know, non of the nations whose lands have been stolen have surrendered. They may not be able to fight back at the mean time, but they will definitely try to come back. Maybe they will succeed maybe not, but they will keep trying.

Seriously buddy, you need to read much more and have a more " logical unbiased approach" in order to understand this conflict. As long as you base your arguments on what you think and what you believe without having to have reference, you will not be able to pass your point. Even Israelis acknowledge that the Palestinians have the right to have their land and exist (except the extremists of them). So I don't see why you would have such a radical point of view. No offense of course buddy.

So this is the info I got per six day war:

According to all the military analysts and pundits, it was to be a lopsided match. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) consisted of 275,000 troops, compared to the 456,000 soldiers of the combined Iraqi, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian armies. The united Arab forces also had a decided edge with regards to weaponry and military equipment: they boasted more than double the amount of tanks, and close to four times the amount of combat aircraft. The three-week period preceding the Six-Day War was one of dread, shock and fright for the residents of the Holy Land.

http://m.chabad.org/multimedia/timeline_cdo/aid/525341/jewish/Introduction.htm

What I heard in the past about this conflict it's the same that this site report.

So then tell me if what I have said in the past is wrong?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

So this is the info I got per six day war:

According to all the military analysts and pundits, it was to be a lopsided match. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) consisted of 275,000 troops, compared to the 456,000 soldiers of the combined Iraqi, Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian armies. The united Arab forces also had a decided edge with regards to weaponry and military equipment: they boasted more than double the amount of tanks, and close to four times the amount of combat aircraft. The three-week period preceding the Six-Day War was one of dread, shock and fright for the residents of the Holy Land.

http://m.chabad.org/multimedia/timeline_cdo/aid/525341/jewish/Introduction.htm

What I heard in the past about this conflict it's the same that this site report.

So then tell me if what I have said in the past is wrong?

Again, you are not aware of what you are talking about. And apparently you are not trying to be objective. You are using a Chabad site?!!! Are you serious? Is that how unbiased you want to show yourself?

6 day war, i.e the invasion of Israel in 1967, Israel attacked countries buddy and occupied their lands. Not a single country fired a bullet towards Israel. But as history repeats itself, Israel said it has the right to defend itself. In 1967 they were scared of tensions, in the 1990s they were afraid of kids with rocks.....etc. A pattern that repeats itself. That led to the war in 1973, where Israel losses were more than the war in 1967, 1956 and 1948 COMBINED. Bar Lev was destroyed by the Egyptians sing water pumps (LOL). Later on Egypt took its land back and a peace treaty was made. And btw, Iraq was not involved, and no other country actually fought.

Anyways, listen man, apparently if Ecuador gets invaded, you will be ok with it and against people defending themselves and getting their land back. That ain't the case with the majority of people. Just because you don't want the Palestinians to fight back for their land, doesn't mean that they will. Doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so too. Even the UN recognizes the right for resistance in occupied lands. So whether you personally approve this or not doesn't matter. You choose to deny the right for people to exist, fine, but then you can't blame them for denying your right to exist. You have no basis for your argument. You keep avoiding points and jumping to different matters. That shows you either don't know much and repeating something without full understanding, or you know that your points are weak and it is better to derail. Let us ended right here. You asked what I think. I told you what I think. It is absolutely your right not to agree with it. And that is totally fine by me, as it doesn't change any of the facts or the situation in the region.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/arab-israeli-war-1967

That is what the west thinks.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Mohammed Seif

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Is there a way, Palestine can be convinced to remove hamas from their govt. If the powerful positions hamas hold in the leadership positions in palestine can be overturned the hamas will have no power over them will eventually lose means to fund their attacks leading to a more sustained peace between isreal and palestine.

I'm I missing something with this statement, or is hamas hold over palestine too strong for a combined international and palestine internal efforts to remove hamas to happen?

[Fernando 6,468]

Again, you are not aware of what you are talking about. And apparently you are not trying to be objective. You are using a Chabad site?!!! Are you serious? Is that how unbiased you want to show yourself?

6 day war, i.e the invasion of Israel in 1967, Israel attacked countries buddy and occupied their lands. Not a single country fired a bullet towards Israel. But as history repeats itself, Israel said it has the right to defend itself. In 1967 they were scared of tensions, in the 1990s they were afraid of kids with rocks.....etc. A pattern that repeats itself. That led to the war in 1973, where Israel losses were more than the war in 1967, 1956 and 1948 COMBINED. Bar Lev was destroyed by the Egyptians sing water pumps (LOL). Later on Egypt took its land back and a peace treaty was made. And btw, Iraq was not involved, and no other country actually fought.

Anyways, listen man, apparently if Ecuador gets invaded, you will be ok with it and against people defending themselves and getting their land back. That ain't the case with the majority of people. Just because you don't want the Palestinians to fight back for their land, doesn't mean that they will. Doesn't mean they don't have the right to do so too. Even the UN recognizes the right for resistance in occupied lands. So whether you personally approve this or not doesn't matter. You choose to deny the right for people to exist, fine, but then you can't blame them for denying your right to exist. You have no basis for your argument. You keep avoiding points and jumping to different matters. That shows you either don't know much and repeating something without full understanding, or you know that your points are weak and it is better to derail. Let us ended right here. You asked what I think. I told you what I think. It is absolutely your right not to agree with it. And that is totally fine by me, as it doesn't change any of the facts or the situation in the region.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/arab-israeli-war-1967

That is what the west thinks.

Yeah that's what I hear from that side of the table.

And then we have the other side that doesn't like Israel and hence they perceived it with a different eye.

There's two different views and someone is lying.

Per Ecuador, Perú took some of our land but we don't become a terrorist organization to get our territory back.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Is there a way, Palestine can be convinced to remove hamas from their govt. If the powerful positions hamas hold in the leadership positions in palestine can be overturned the hamas will have no power over them will eventually lose means to fund their attacks leading to a more sustained peace between isreal and palestine.

I'm I missing something with this statement, or is hamas hold over palestine too strong for a combined international and palestine internal efforts to remove hamas to happen?

You see mate, this has been going on prior to Hamas coming to power in 2006. So clearly the problem isn't Hamas. The UN, UK, EU, and even USA, realize that the main problem with reaching a peace solution is Israel's contentious ignorance of international law through building illegal settlements. The term illegal settlements is not my definition by the way. It is how these countries see it. Hamas is just an excuse. Mahmoud Abbas who is the head of the Palistinain Government (who was not violent) was an excuse prior to Hamas in 2006. Even Yasser Arafat was an excuse. The international community though understand it is the settlements. The only nation that ignores this is Israel.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Yeah that's what I hear from that side of the table.

And then we have the other side that doesn't like Israel and hence they perceived it with a different eye.

There's two different views and someone is lying.

Per Ecuador, Perú took some of our land but we don't become a terrorist organization to get our territory back.

LOL. I am not using the Arab's point of view. I am using the west's point of view. So that arguement about "side that doesn't like Israel" is non sense.

As per Ecuador, I assume you didn't just ask your invaders to give you back your land politely.

And as far as "terrorism" is concerned, the ex foreign minister of Israel describes such behavior from Israel as "terroristic". Strong coming from an Israeli politician if you ask me.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

You see mate, this has been going on prior to Hamas coming to power in 2006. So clearly the problem isn't Hamas. The UN, UK, EU, and even USA, realize that the main problem with reaching a peace solution is Israel's contentious ignorance of international law through building illegal settlements. The term illegal settlements is not my definition by the way. It is how these countries see it. Hamas is just an excuse. Mahmoud Abbas who is the head of the Palistinain Government (who was not violent) was an excuse prior to Hamas in 2006. Even Yasser Arafat was an excuse. The international community though understand it is the settlements. The only nation that ignores this is Israel.

I'm confused. So if israel gives up all the land they took since 1948 then there can be peace??

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I'm confused. So if isreal gives up all the land they took since 1948 then there can be peace??

NOOOOO mate. How did you get that? There are agreed borders for the West Bank and Gaza, with east Jerusalem as the capital for Palestine. That is simply the two state solution. Israel keeps building settlements though within these agreed borders. They are asking Palestinians to give up more land. No one talks about the 1948 border!!!. You can't solve the problems of Palestinians by creating problems for Israelis. That will not be a solution.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I'm confused. So if israel gives up all the land they took since 1948 then there can be peace??

Sure, because there won't be anything called Israel anymore

There was nothing called Israel before 1948. It was just Palestine.

Of course they can't give the land back to the Palestinians, they brought in millions of Jews from around the world, and it's their home too now. They can't be thrown into the sea (although Zionism has tried to do just that with the Palestinians with some success I must say).

The only solution I see is a single fully integrated state with everyone living as equals. The root of the problem is the horrible, horrible, conditions that the Palestinians live in and the daily racist harassment, and I'm only talking about the days of peace.

As long the Palestinians are treated as inferior to the Israelis then there can be no peace.