Politics & Stuff

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

The Hamas Charter reads like a hate manual. And these are the people Jews are supposed to reach a compromise with?

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

For once, an unbiased piece on the Israel - Palestine situation from the BBC of all places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13331522

[EBH 283]

The best chances of a peaceful settlement went away when the moderates like Yasser Arafat passed away. It'll be a long time until both sides have leaders that aren't aggressive.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

The best chances of a peaceful settlement went away when the moderates like Yasser Arafat passed away. It'll be a long time until both sides have leaders that aren't aggressive.

I disagree mate, as Abbass is much more moderate. But the real loss was Isaac Rabin. There is also quiet an impressive guy called Shlomo Ben Ami. Quiet impressive and moderate

[EBH 283]

I disagree mate, as Abbass is much more moderate. But the real loss was Isaac Rabin. There is also quiet an impressive guy called Shlomo Ben Ami. Quiet impressive and moderate

Anwar Sadat was the best of them all though

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Anwar Sadat was the best of them all though

Sadat was the smartest of them all. And if the rest of the Arabs would have listened at the time, this region what have been so different. He got Egypt what it wanted and Israel what they needed. May he rest in peace.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I'm going to elaborate an analogy to showcase more or less how I see the situation. And forgive me if it ends up sounding a tad simplistic or if I got something wrong.

You see, I have been living in this house for quite some years now. Then one day, out of the blue, someone knocks at my door and says that this dude who is 6'6'' tall (while I am 5'10'') has the right to be living in my house. Of course I don't like it and I want to fight him and take him out. But in the end he's stronger and wins - as I don't have anywhere else to go, I stay in the house and try to keep my losses at a minimum. However, this dude now has decided half of my house is not enough for him and he takes by force the second bathroom too, leaving me with none. And then he keeps taking more and more until I'm left to live in my backyard and sleep in the dog's house. Can you blame me for taking my rockets I used to hide below the dog's house and wanting to blow his face? Unfortunately he has a force shield and I can't hit him directly, he only takes minor injuries from the explosions around, and he comes in the backyard and beats the shit out of me whenever I try it. He says he's only defending himself from me and asks me to stop. He claims he doesn't understand why can't I just accept and live in the place where he left me to live.

How different could it have gone if after settling in my house he offered to discuss which part I wanted to keep and which part he wanted, or better, if everything was shared as common space? If he offered to split the costs for internet and cable tv? If he volunteered to take turns for taking the clothes to the laundry? I mean, it's true I lost some freedom and space and I'm still pissed about that. But I can't take him out by force and his stay here has increased my quality of life despite everything. Maybe I'm willing to compromise, maybe it could be good for both of us. However, had he took the place I consider mine with all my stuff to himself by force and left me to live a miserable life I'm pretty sure I would be more willing to kill him than to make any kind of deal.

The first situation is what happened in simple terms. The second is what Choulo19 proposed and that may or may not be out of reach at this point.

I disagree mate, as Abbass is much more moderate. But the real loss was Isaac Rabin. There is also quiet an impressive guy called Shlomo Ben Ami. Quiet impressive and moderate

Yeah, but Arafat was almost the sole representative of the Palestinian people while Abbas barely represents himself. He's really not that like from what I know.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Yeah, but Arafat was almost the sole representative of the Palestinian people while Abbas barely represents himself. He's really not that like from what I know.

I didn't say Arafat wasn't a representative. He was by all means. But he was the symbol of resistance. Not the moderates. I remember his comment about the peace treaty at the time. He is a true face for the resistance. Definetely not a radical, but you can't say he was a moderate. Maybe in the last 10 years before he died. Abbass is more political. Not as popular as Arafat is ofcourse, but definitely more moderate.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I didn't say Arafat wasn't a representative. He was by all means. But he was the symbol of resistance. Not the moderates. I remember his comment about the peace treaty at the time. He is a true face for the resistance. Definetely not a radical, but you can't say he was a moderate. Maybe in the last 10 years before he died. Abbass is more political. Not as popular as Arafat is ofcourse, but definitely more moderate.

Yeah, I didn't say he was a moderator either (though definitely not a radical or extremist), but what I was alluding to is that there would probably be a higher chance of the two sides reaching agreements with someone like Arafat (especially in his last years) than someone like Abbas. Being moderate is not enough, you need someone who represents the people.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Yeah, I didn't say he was a moderator either (though definitely not a radical or extremist), but what I was alluding to is that there would probably be a higher chance of the two sides reaching agreements with someone like Arafat (especially in his last years) than someone like Abbas. Being moderate is not enough, you need someone who represents the people.

Oh in that sense I totally agree. Though I think the Palestinians will follow and back up anyone who gives them hope.

[Fulham Broadway 16,832]

Oh in that sense I totally agree. Though I think the Palestinians will follow and back up anyone who gives them hope.

Arafat was a great mentor and example to the Palestinians - such a tragedy that now it is almost certain he was poisoned, it leaves any notion of trust in a precarious position.

I must say though the discussions on this thread, from people coming from poles apart have been conducted politely, and the leaders of israel and the Palestinians are more intransigent and childish than some of TC members. They could learn from our diplomacy and quid pro quo !

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Arafat was a great mentor and example to the Palestinians - such a tragedy that now it is almost certain he was poisoned, it leaves any notion of trust in a precarious position.

I must say though the discussions on this thread, from people coming from poles apart have been conducted politely, and the leaders of israel and the Palestinians are more intransigent and childish than some of TC members. They could learn from our diplomacy and quid pro quo !

Arafat sure did as much as he could for the Palestinians. Will always be remembered as a symbol of resistance. The most brilliant thing about this thread, besides what you have mentioned, is that there are third parties. People like yourself, stingray, dion and others who contribute in a rather constructive manner. The more ideas that are brought in, the more information, the different angles of tackling the situation, all this educates everyone more and gives valuable insights. Not to mention it forms lots of cultural bridges.

[Stingray 9,441]

Yup. Unilateral agreements with Egypt without consulting any of the Palestinian parties. Sure that builds trust, especially after a record of breaking cease fires in the past. Hamas may be asholes, but I do not think Palestinians are naive... Great move to massage the international opinion, while you have the best excuse to keep on coin what your are doing #politics

Chris Doyle‏@Doylech

Israeli anger re Hamas not agreeing to ceasefire might be credible if it had not a record of breaking them eg 2012/13 pic.twitter.com/b9Ekt4O8f1

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[Peppen 934]

For fuck's sake. Get your shit together, Israel.

[xPetrCechx 13,563]

For fuck's sake. Get your shit together, Israel.

???

[Dion 2,476]

Arafat was a great mentor and example to the Palestinians - such a tragedy that now it is almost certain he was poisoned, it leaves any notion of trust in a precarious position.

I must say though the discussions on this thread, from people coming from poles apart have been conducted politely, and the leaders of israel and the Palestinians are more intransigent and childish than some of TC members. They could learn from our diplomacy and quid pro quo !

That's why mediators are invaluable in order to solve problems when hatred is involved. It blinds both parties and makes it difficult to compromise, because it requires both sides making concessions, and none of them want to be the first one to do it because they feel it would be a sign that they were losing or conceding defeat. Why would you back down if you were winning? What's difficult to see is that none of them is winning, both are losing.

I've had a personal experience with that when my parents got a divorce. My parents are some of the smartest people I know. Specially my dad. But damn, I swear they were behaving more childish and stupid than my little brother who was 9 at the time. It requires a lot of wisdom and composure to be able to clearly assess the situation when you're directly involved and affected.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Can't even begin to explain how much I want this to be true and actually happen:

But I guess that's more wishful thinking than anything....

[Fulham Broadway 16,832]

Can't even begin to explain how much I want this to be true and actually happen:

But I guess that's more wishful thinking than anything....

I wouldnt be surprised if that is true Chou. Thing is we know Israel will reject the prisoner release bit out of hand, and that they will do what ever they can to reignite the situation in 3, 6 months time even if it was to occur.

Shrewd and sensible move by Hamas though...puts the ball in their court with a 'we want peace' angle rather than the 'Israel has no right to exist' mantra.