Juan Mata

[LAB 1,030]

Mata should be used correctly this season. Can't stay mediocre for too long. Some ppl will regret their sayings...

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

you know what I liked about this?

The kind of thread they have. I think we could have some similar threads with players performances in the season. I really like this idea. That way we separate our general opinion from the guy from what he's been really showing. It's a nice thread to have.

Then the thread most of the time will be filled with Torres, Mikel and Oscar names all over it, even if any of them not playing at all.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

It's really true that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Whilst browsing Redcafe I found people who rate Oscar a lot higher than Kagawa and very close to Mata. They think Hazard will definitely be at the bare minimum a player of Ribery's and Robben's caliber, if not Messi/Ronaldo level. They're truly scared of Costa, Hazard, Oscar, Schürrle, Willian, Fabregas and Matic. And they also think we'll win the league comfortably, with a few games to spare

Relevant:

"It just hit me, and I don't know why I'm late to the party here...but Chelsea are going to dominate this season aren't they?

They've improved their team brilliantly this summer."

-

"Don't think they'll 'walk' it but I think they'll win, and pretty comfortably, with like a couple of games to spare.

I think having Matic completely settled alongside Fabregas in midfield, with Hazard, Oscar and Schürrle in front of them and a competent CF (I don't rate Diego Costa that highly, but I think he'll be fine for them with the formation they play, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Drogba still doing a job when called upon) makes them a really strong unit. Cahill/Terry is a strong partnership, not the best in European football but very solid, their fullbacks are good and they've got a top keeper, and Mourinho will be extremely focused.

I think last year, there was a bit of unrest with all the Mata stuff during the first half and José seeming less motivated in the second part of the season, and yet they still fared well. I think this season they'll be even more competitive."

-

"It was only preseason, yes, but it doesn't look as though Costa is going to flop and struggle to adapt to his new team like the vast majority thought does it? Everyone saw that he had the physique and skill set to fit the PL like a glove but people are/were still wondering if he'd keep up his scoring form.

I've seen highlights of his preseason and he got 4 goals and 2 assists and looks like he's been playing with their team for years. Already looks totally settled.

Hazard was the most creative player in the league last season statistically I believe and now with Fabregas, a LB who actually gets forward, and Willian and Schürrle with a seasons experience under their belts their attack should be frightening and scoring goals against parked buses shouldn't be a problem."

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

ps: a bit off-topic, I'm sorry.

This is why I think MU fans are much more respectful and rational than Pool, Arsenal or Spurs fans. You will not find that kind of post in Pool, Arsenal and Spurs forum in a million years.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

4 pages of alleged racism...in an ex-player thread.

Fixed

[different level 1,056]

You read the post. But you didn't understand it. You are way too angry on seeing the first statement, and that has shrouded your judgement.

No one hear has claimed that Kagawa is miles better than Mata, while the opposite has been done. In rebuttal it was put forward that Kagawa is quite good at things Mata can't do, while Mata is quite good at things Kagawa can't do. The most extreme comment you can find is that someone stated Kagawa was a more well rounded player. Atleast in Chelsea's perspective, that could be true.

The Torres comparison made me cringe though, and someone made that point before. I really don't get it. Torres is past it, his injuries made him lose the attributes he depended most on. He's past it. Put him in any system, he can't score. The man is over both physically and psychologically. Kagawa on the other hand has been mishandled. It's obvious to see.

At Dortmund he had positional freedom, something Chelsea's front three have. Their gegenpressing system meant that he would have to work really hard in dropping back and initiation counter-attacks. I would even go on to same that at the time, he was one of the best pressers in the team. No one came close to how hard he worked. I obviously didn't watch Dortmund anymore after he left ( which was pretty bad on my part), but Reus probably ended up as the next best presser. Getting the similarity now? This is what I believe lead the person to claim that he was a more well rounded player. With Chelsea's perspective in mind.

At United he's given freedom to drop into the penalty box, something Rooney excels at. He's never going to be good at it. Fergie and Moyes then tried to play him on the left, but didn't give him the freedom to drop inside. This made him suffer. That does not make him shit as a player.

Mata at Chelsea was given all the freedom in the world, and he excelled while Chelsea tactically did suffer. But he's so good of a player that no one needs to notice it. You're still awed by what he's pulled off. But when Mourinho came along and demanded that the players pick up extra tactical duties which included always working hard, he suffered. Against Swansea yesterday, he was responsible for letting go off Ki, who went on to score. These are huge flaws. But that does not make him shit as a player.

The fact is no one has claimed that Mata is utter shit. He's not. There are things he can do that many attacking midfielders can't dream off, but he fits a system. Only that system. The same goes for Kagawa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't seen him being used by Klopp, than you wouldn't have been saying that, because that is pretty disrespectful. At United, in the wrong system, he's sadly a shirt seller. At Dortmund, and in the right kind of system, he isn't.

I'm not using the past to support him. Past is the past, its over. You can't judge a player now cause of it. Drogba isn't even close to what he was at his prime. But Kagawa's situation is complex. Just like Miroslav 'I can only perform with Germany and not with my club' Klose is complex.

Mata has more than one season to prove his worth. During his time here he's worked with 4 managers and he was the top star while playing for the first 3 of them. He was given freedom by RDM and Rafa and his creative prowess produced lots of goals and assists and no wonder he was picked as Chelsea's player of the season for two consecutive seasons.

I don't get why is he blamed for our tactical inadequacy back then as probably him at attacking free role (and later Hazard and Oscar) was our best way to go at the time, given all the circumstances. Also we had much bigger problems like the one in defense and midfield. Remembering AVB's high defensive line with JT (who is not exactly blessed with pace) and David Luiz (who was running around the pitch like a headless chicken) still gives me a headache.

I never buy the excuse of someone not being able to "fit the system". Everytime a new manager comes he has his own set of requirements so the players need to be adaptive and work hard in order to do what is asked of them. Mata's inability to press and his poor work off the ball have been ever present since he joined us in 2011. However, back then the focus was on his creativity as he was excused of his defensive duties. When Jose came he was fully aware of those flaws and he instantly gave his spot to Oscar who is a better tackler, but probably two times less creative. Sure Mata's poor form at the time didn't help his case, but he clearly didn't play as much as he needed to. Ultimately he was the one who decided to go rather than stay, work through his weaknesses and earn Jose's trust. Ironically he'd have a great opportunity to do that considering how useless has Oscar been after January. Afterwards I didn't see a lot of him, but after a slow start for United he picked up some form and scored 6 goals and it's probably fair to say he did okay, despite not being played CAM.

As for Kagawa people seem to build their opinion of him as a player on his single good season with Dortmund. You could be right that he's being misused, but either way he's a big flop. He still should have had many strong games and the only one I can think of is the one against Norwich in the spring of 2013 when he scored a hat-trick.

When he first came in England he was compared with Hazard which proved to be more laughable by the day. Eden is not the best presser, he's not always tracking back and that's why Jose said he wants more from him when the Belgian received his Chelsea POTY award 3 months ago. But I don't think anyone here would consider comparing our best player to Kagawa.

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga, but still the only argument in his favour seems to be his time in Dortmund, which is simply not good enough to compare him with the likes of Mata.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Well since you haven't seen him play, then I won't read the above. Cheers.

[Tomo 21,733]

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-2014-2015-performances.394002/page-2

Some absolute beauts on there.

I missed it, but my friend said that it was Mata that was chasing Ki for the first goal and then just stopped. Poor if true - was below par today.

It wasn't until Gerrard gave him a head start and caught in that game in the US that I realized how slow Mata is, and in this system the game is just passing him by way too often, he can't seem to make any space for himself.

He is so slow, didn't have any impact. Is it just a fitness issue?

Poor display from Mata. Really needs to offer a lot more than he did. Noticeable how little effort he puts in off the ball compared to the others

But but but, attacking midfielders shouldn't have to do any defensive work

[CHOULO19 24,332]

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga,

Then what are you even arguing about?

Judging Kagawa based solely on his time at united is like judging Juan based on the first half of last season under Jose only.

[Tomo 21,733]

Mata has more than one season to prove his worth. During his time here he's worked with 4 managers and he was the top star while playing for the first 3 of them. He was given freedom by RDM and Rafa and his creative prowess produced lots of goals and assists and no wonder he was picked as Chelsea's player of the season for two consecutive seasons.

I don't get why is he blamed for our tactical inadequacy back then as probably him at attacking free role (and later Hazard and Oscar) was our best way to go at the time, given all the circumstances. Also we had much bigger problems like the one in defense and midfield. Remembering AVB's high defensive line with JT (who is not exactly blessed with pace) and David Luiz (who was running around the pitch like a headless chicken) still gives me a headache.

I never buy the excuse of someone not being able to "fit the system". Everytime a new manager comes he has his own set of requirements so the players need to be adaptive and work hard in order to do what is asked of them. Mata's inability to press and his poor work off the ball have been ever present since he joined us in 2011. However, back then the focus was on his creativity as he was excused of his defensive duties. When Jose came he was fully aware of those flaws and he instantly gave his spot to Oscar who is a better tackler, but probably two times less creative. Sure Mata's poor form at the time didn't help his case, but he clearly didn't play as much as he needed to. Ultimately he was the one who decided to go rather than stay, work through his weaknesses and earn Jose's trust. Ironically he'd have a great opportunity to do that considering how useless has Oscar been after January. Afterwards I didn't see a lot of him, but after a slow start for United he picked up some form and scored 6 goals and it's probably fair to say he did okay, despite not being played CAM.

As for Kagawa people seem to build their opinion of him as a player on his single good season with Dortmund. You could be right that he's being misused, but either way he's a big flop. He still should have had many strong games and the only one I can think of is the one against Norwich in the spring of 2013 when he scored a hat-trick.

When he first came in England he was compared with Hazard which proved to be more laughable by the day. Eden is not the best presser, he's not always tracking back and that's why Jose said he wants more from him when the Belgian received his Chelsea POTY award 3 months ago. But I don't think anyone here would consider comparing our best player to Kagawa.

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga, but still the only argument in his favour seems to be his time in Dortmund, which is simply not good enough to compare him with the likes of Mata.

The thing is, our 11/12 team were so crap that no one really cared about any defiency Mata had because he (along with Danny and Rami) were the only ones performing anywhere close to consistently, we were in a beggers can't be choosers moment as a club.

Not many complained about Ramires lack of technical ability in 11/12, why? Because despite that he was light years ahead of the alternatives, now there is quality alternatives for him, he gets more complaints. Similar as to why Mata's lack of workrate and off the ball game got mentioned more when we had quality depth in attacking midfield and not Anelkalouda waiting if Juan couldn't play.

Also RDM didn't build the team around him, he had Mazacar interchanging, Benitez came in and had to get us top 3, so he did what was best in the short term, build the team around Mata (Hazard and Oscar were young in there first season, so it wouldn't have been fair to put that pressure on then) with the bus firmly parked in behind him.

Benitez likes his teams to be solid and tough to beat, if he got the full time gig there's every chance he might have dropped Juan to.

[different level 1,056]

Then what are you even arguing about?

Judging Kagawa based solely on his time at united is like judging Juan based on the first half of last season under Jose only.

Have we seen Mata playing under Jose for two years?

Kagawa has 4 full seasons in European football, two of which in Man Utd under two different managers (not counting Giggs).

Your comparison has nothing to do with reality.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Have we seen Mata playing under Jose for two years?

Kagawa has 4 full seasons in European football, two of which in Man Utd under two different managers (not counting Giggs).

Your comparison has nothing to do with reality.

Doesn't matter for how long, the point is in both cases they are grossly misused in a system that does not fit them. Doesn't matter if for 5 months or 5 years. Just like you refer to Mata's first two season here when talking about his ability, you should talk about Kagawa's time at Dortmund when comparing with him. Being in a team that plays a system that does not suite cannot take away from he's already shown his capable of.

[different level 1,056]

Doesn't matter for how long, the point is in both cases they are grossly misused in a system that does not fit them. Doesn't matter if for 5 months or 5 years. Just like you refer to Mata's first two season here when talking about his ability, you should talk about Kagawa's time at Dortmund when comparing with him. Being in a team that plays a system that does not suite cannot take away from he's already shown his capable of.

It's not the same thing at all.

Mata's had this kind of problem with only one manager for so many years of European football. With Kagawa it goes with Ferguson, Moysey and by the looks of it LVG is not very fond of him either. Moreover the only manager who used Kagawa "the right way" was Klopp.

Sounds to me like too many excuses are thrown in his favour.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

It's not the same thing at all.

Mata's had this kind of problem with only one manager for so many years of European football. With Kagawa it goes with Ferguson, Moysey and by the looks of it LVG is not very fond of him either. Moreover the only manager who used Kagawa "the right way" was Klopp.

Sounds to me like too many excuses are thrown in his favour.

I'm not going into that discussion because it's besides the point. Kagawa, like Mata, have already showed how good they can be. You can't take away what they have already showed/achieved.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

LVG's played one official game and Kagawa is out of favor. The lengths one can go to put down a player they have never seen play...

[different level 1,056]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

[Tomo 21,733]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

A weak league?

[The_Flash 1,144]

Kagawa isn't too bad but really hasn't been given a chance at Utd quite a few people been wasted there.

[Myself 793]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

Ignorance at its finest.

Is Champions League weak too? And France? And Italy? And Spain? England is the only nation with a strong league, it seems.