Kojo

It's a big loss for Sunderland, they should of won this match, Arsenals defence has been shocking.

I never said it was... Are you people on drugs? When did I ever say it was about the ball over the line, there is goal line technology out now so it wouldn't be anyway, I'm just saying Atkinson said it was a foul, it was his fault.

Great football from Arsenal, but jesus christ, another bad day for referees.

Sunderland robbed from a goal, it's just been confirmed that the ball went over the line.

Arsenal are getting huge luck, never a foul

OH MY GOD, Arsenal are so damn lucky! How the hell did Sunderland not score there!.

He can't accept opinions, that's always been his problem, at least Skipper can accept an opinion, if you say a bad word about Mikel you get ridiculed.

And I didn't make a big post? So your saying I made a post that big and didn't read yours and just ignored it? Believe what you want mate, but I have always thought your opinion has been delusional so I'm not going to agree it or respect it in anyway am I? I've been going on about Mikel for far too long, And I was right about him whilst you where the one who wouldn't let go, the more you post the more you make just make it embarrassing for yourself. It's clear Mikel has no place in this time and you still can't accept it.

Once again Choulo ignores the point that Mikel can't play in the system. I can't wait to see your reaction when Mikel is sold I really can't.

I'm not talking about them, the fans and the pundits and such. It will get overlooked, Palace where doing really well and a decision like that happens and that's not going to benefit them at halftime. So they aren't going to come out expecting much and United will probably net another 3.

United will probably win by a bigger margin and in the end the decision will of been justified by there result apparently.

And for the love of god please stop posting this video. I have seen people post this video about 20 times in this thread for over a year. It's a poor argument when your resorting to shotting a video on Youtube of a compilation which only shows the good things from a player. Funny thing is the video is only 3 and a half minutes long. That's with recording all his best parts of the season, I wouldn't exactly call that good for a so called 'key' player in our team.

Mikel wouldn't in any of the other top 6 teams in the league, he wouldn't get in over Lucas, wouldn't get in over Carrick, he wouldn't get in over Toure or Fernandinho he wouldn't get in over Paulinho or Dembele and he wouldn't get in over Wilshere or Arteta. Stop rating Mikel so highly, he didn't have great games, he was the passenger and always has been, why do you think people where expecting him to flourish in 2010/2011? Because people wanted to see more of him because he was just a passenger, he did his duty and nothing more, he always had cover and he always had much better players around him. 2010/2011 season Lampard was out half of the season but in no way was Mikel the best, once Lampard came back Mikel was on the bench for the rest of the season and that's how it worked. If you really think Mikel made a difference that season you're sadly wrong, because once Essien, Malouda and Drogba went down hill we started losing lots of games, the bad november when we were losing to Birmingham and 3-0 at home to Sunderland, and you're trying to convince me that Mikel was our best player that season? Don't make me laugh, if the team doesn't perform then neither will Mikel and that's how it's always worked. He has never been great, he has only been able to compete in the team when he can get in it, and even then he had the likes of Ballack and Essien around him. Now that we have lost those players look at him now, he has been terrible the past two seasons, overall bad. The final is the cheapest thing you could possibly do for your argument, and you're using it, everyone was good that final, all we did was defend. If Mikel couldn't do that then he is a Championship midfielder. We only had to defend, Mikel didn't have space to cover, we just had to park the bus, that's why Bosingwa and Kalou had good games yet you just don't get the point. As for the system 4-2-3-1 again you have missed the point, since when did I ever specifically say that formations justify the way you play? I never said that, stop picking it out like it's some flaw in my argument. Games against United and Bayern aren't going to happen very often, we aren't even going to play 10 of those games where we will be getting dominated and we have to play in our own half, so if you really think we are going to sit in our own half against the likes of Palace and West Ham then you aren't even giving me a chance in this argument. Carrick had a 90% passing accruacy, but you know what? I can remember Carrick playing in long balls constantly, he was like Paul Scholes, he could pick out any movement up top. Does Mikel do that? No he doesn't, but what are you going to do about it? Bring up his ACON performances like you always do? Stats will now show how good Mikel is, he has a good first touch on him I'll admit, but you want to talk about passing he has gave it away a lot also, most of his passes are sideways or back to the defence, or if it is forward it's someone in lots of space right infront of him. He always plays it safe, but way to safe, his mentallity is awful, he's far too calm on the ball, he's no master at it either because he has made so many mistakes, his pass against Juventus which lost us 2 points, and remember when he got out muscled by fucking Charlie Adam against Liverpool, and they went 1-0 up? It was Cechs fault but Mikel made a meal of it he tried to shield of Charlie Adam and Charlie Adam actually out muscled him and got the ball, that is shocking for a player who is supposed to be this big strong guy of the team. He has always been an average player, he doesn't contribtue to much, never scores goals, never makes the great passes, never benefits the team massively in defence, he's just a passenger and that's all he can get away with. You expect Mikel to be this maestro in the team saying he's putting in 'great' performance and then claiming later on in your posts that he will be the 'key' player. He can't be the key player because he doesn't do much besides play in an additional support role. And in the 4-2-3-1 when we have 4 attackers we can't do that, we can't have 'additional' players in the pivot. The only additional player is the one behind the striker, we need really good players behind who can cover space and add fluidity so they can swap roles. Mikel can't offer that, and that's why he wont be playing many games this season. I seriously hope Marco Van Ginkel gets more games because he is better than Mikel in my honest opinion, like it or not but I like the guys attitude, he doesn't give up. This holding midfielder role you keep referring to isn't going to happen, he lacks the pace to play there, it doesn't matter how close we play together every team gets countered, especially in this league. Mikel is a poor man marker, he can't keep track of his man, if he's going to be a holding midfielder it isn't going to work. In this system we don't need holding midfielders, we need central midfielders who are all around good. Ramires has a specific duty of covering ground and putting pressure on players, he's immense at it. The other midfielder has more say in the attack and covers many tracks and spaces, Lampard does well even for his age. Mikel can't fit in that role and if you think he can adapt then you've got another thing coming. The problem is with Mikel he does make other mistakes like other players your right, but Mikel doesn't make up for it, he doesn't put in good consistent performances his mistakes make him a liability because that's all he does. And sorry don't keep going on to me that no one gets his role and no one sees what he actually does, because we've had people like JDY in the past that have proven that one wrong. Not many people see that nowadays, just the ones who have great belief in Mikel. In our system we have no room for passengers, we have 4 attacking midfielders and it's not possible, we need world class players and ones who can fit in the team and do the job, Mikel can't do that. The 09-10 season Mikel had a lot of cover, I agree that was probably his best season, because even I didn't mind Mikel then, I had great faith in him believe it or not, but then I watched him play without those players and that was that for me. When AVB was our mananger there was this debate on Mikel, and after the Laverkusen and Stoke game I had really high hopes of Mikel but then it all changed with the Valencia game and all those games after it, he just couldn't do it, he failed. He had the chance to make his spot into the team and he couldn't do it, no excuses Choulo he couldn't do it, and he has done this for the past two seasons. This isn't 09-10 anymore, that was a while ago mate, look at that team compared to the team we have now it's almost completely different. The way we play is completely different as well. In my opinion there has been a big reason why Mikel hasn't played many games and has been benched by the likes of a centre back and had less game time than a 20 year old so far.

McEachran can be very similar to Wilshere, the sad thing is he just lacks that flair, Wilshere can just do it, whereas McEachran has done it, he's done it for us and he has done it for Middlesbrough every now and then. Hope he starts getting game time, give him the chance because he might surprise many.

By the way Choulo that page you just linked, look above Manpe's post and look at mine. I predicted the outcome of Mikel for a long time. I have always been saying this, I'm not just some random hater.

Forget about all the haters of Mikel and the ones that say he's shit, stop bringing that into the discussion, I don't care about them and neither should you, this is mine and your debate now. Best DM in the league is a big claim to make, and it's a claim you've made many times. There is not enough evidence of performances to say Mikel is the best DM in the league, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. And by the way if you read my post I said Carlo's 2nd season, not his 1st, you said that he was our star midfielder during carlo era, that still includes 2nd season. You want to go back 4 years ago when we where a different side? Okay sure then but it's not going to do much good, if that's the debate why don't we get Drogba back? Oh that's right he's 35 years old now and not the player he once was. Ramires was not as inconsistent as Mikel, Ramires had a good patch of games, Mikel didn't. I don't rate Ramires as highly as most of the forum do, infact I hate how bad of a footballer he is at times, and I would choose Mikel over him any day if we are playing in our own half. I beleive Mikel should've started against Bayern and United, but we aren't going to have games like that all the time. Lets face it Mikel wont fit into the 4-2-3-1, that's not his style, it requires more fluidity, not someone staying back all the time. One thing you need to stop doing is saying stuff like 'great' and 'amazing' it's silly, if he was putting in 'great' performances he would be at Madrid or Barcelona, so lets quit the bull shit. Mikel has let the side down defensively, he's no good in the holding midfield role either, he isn't good off the ball, he can't mark quality players, he can't deal with pace. Mikel can't cover space, it's a huge weakness. This is the Premier League, players must cover space and Mikel can't do it, the amount of players he has let go in the box, Grant Holt with Norwich springs to mind? Also Luiz wasn't as bad as you thought he was, he did the trick, he added drive that we needed, he would never fit there in the long term no way, he wasn't structured or disciplined enough, Benitez only shot him there to get the ball upfield and do something, we where only trying to win as much games as we could then and midfield was lacking so much. The fact that Mikel has been benched by so many shows that he is lacking in quality, he has shown on the pitch that he can make mistakes and he has. Mikel is and never has been world class because sometimes he can't even do his duty. He has never flourished when he needed to. 5 seasons ago he was the passenger not the maestro, Lampard and Ballack did all the work in midfield, we had a great side then, it wasn't John Obi Xavi Mikel who was pulling all the strings, but for some reason only you remember it that way. He will always be overrated and underrated, and there is a reason for it, because he can't show what he is capable of, not because he didn't have the chance he did, because he failed when he got the opportunity, he lacks character and determination, and it's a huge reason why I think we should sell him.

Roman, is that you?

Everyone had a great final in the Champions League Bosingwa and Kalou did Mikels job was only to protect the back 4 yet Lampard made more decisive in the box clearances and interceptions yet no one talks about him just Mikel. Mikel had the job to protect the back four as did Lampard. Yet Lampard made more decisive in the box clearances and interceptions. However all the talk is about Mikel, it's a very poor argument. He did his duty just like every other player, if you want to see a great performance look no further than Ashley Cole.

He was not putting 'great' performances under Carlo, you need to understand what 'great' means. We had the worst midfield of the Roman generation in Carlos 2nd season. And you're trying to convince me that Mikel was putting in great performances? Even though Lampard and Essien started most games? Okay so last season lets go through with this one. John Obi Mikel put in more bad performances than good ones, then most of them were average and below average. Juan Mata, unbelievable season, Oscar and Hazard very impressive first seasons, Ramires had a very strong season and showed us that he is a good ball winner. Lampard was good regardless of what anyone says, yes he left his other players exposed but he did the job when needed to. So I really don't see how anyone was as bad as Mikel? Ake even had a very good set of games for his age. Stop making things up as you go along, he hasn't proven to any of us that he's good enough for this team, the evidence isn't there for you, you want to challenge me on performances I'm going to win every single time, until Mikel plays consistently well and establishes himself into a team instead of getting benched by centre backs and 18 year olds you can then challenge me on these sort of debates.

That is an ignorant post to be fair mate, you can't say that, there is reason for people wanting Mikel gone. The evidence was there he had a bad season, even Skipper admits that. Your argument has been that he is good enough for the team and will show that in the future, he hasn't shown that yet and this argument has been going on for a year and a half? So it's ignorant to say that all this is just because we need someone as a scapegoat.

Oh the term 'ammunition' Well then lets just say each and every Liverpool fan has one of them Hershal shotguns out of the walking dead with unlimited ammo. Or GTA or Saints Row cheatcodes at there disposal. Liverpool fans will never stop there ridiculous over optimistic statements of how they are going to win the league. It doesn't matter either way because come the end of the season they will once again be out of the top four.

They reached the semi finals because they where drawn against Inter Milan in the quarters. Inter Milan declined massively that season, they ended up beating them 5-2 at there own ground. Then Schalke where put to shame by Man United and I mean put to shame, United should've scored about 8 and that's no exaggeration, if it wasn't for the wonder kid sensation that is Manuel Neur they would have been embarrassed that game. Neur saved about 6 one on ones. Then United beat them 4-1 in the 2nd leg whilst playing there B team, Schalke where an embarrassment against United, I have never seen a team fold so easily. They are better now, they have quality players but we are still capable of beating them. I'm just happy we haven't got a team like Dortmund, PSG, Napoli or Juventus in the group, that's the last thing we would of needed.

Interesting theory. Eto's main part of his game was his acceleration, that doesn't mean he was Theo Walcott, that just means in his prime he was extremely dangerous and when a player loses that main attribute to his game it affects all others. I believe 90 percent of good players have a formula, and that allows them mental strength such as confidence to do well in other things. Malouda was a great example because when he lost his pace he lost everything. He couldn't dribble, he couldn't cross, he couldn't pass and he just turned into a huge liability for us. It then turned to one of the best left wingers in the world who we could always rely on to letting us down all the time. Other teams used to be terrified when he had the ball, then we where terrified when he had the ball, then next thing you know he's playing Van Persie in to make it 4-3. I am hoping Eto'o is going to shut my post up and score goals, but if physics intervene then what can we do but face reality that Eto'o is just simply not good enough. Honestly though I'm really hoping he will come here and do really well, I didn't want the transfer to happen but now that it's happened we need to show him the full support and when he plays against Everton lets make sure we see a good performance.

I disagree, I have seen one of those posts about 3 times now and it's clearly just mocking members who had different opinions to them. It's not being disrespectful it's just a fact, if you don't contribute as much then you certainly don't get the right to mock other members who have been on this site for 3-6 years. Anyways I'm done, because I'll be the only one here to get in trouble, no doubt about it.

You have a point, I am a bastard I admit, but the mockery isn't really necessary is it? After all the whining and complaining for the argument to finish people are bringing up the past and just want to start another argument. If it's not going to be me then it will be someone else I will assure you of that.