Nathaniel Chalobah

[CHOULO19 24,332]

He's always played above his age group at both youth level and U21 etc. with the national team. I don't see why he can't do the same with senior club football at Chelsea.

These are the kind of exaggerated expectations that set back Josh's career.

[Stats 7,053]

Put it this way, if Watford can gain promotion with Zola in charge I firmly hope Chalobah goes back to Watford again on loan next season. I would like to see him in a Chelsea shirt which I am sure we will see some time but I will have no problem with him being loaned out again next season.

[themightyblue 443]

Mikel and Ramires aren't Schweinsteiger or Ronaldo. Not even close.

I do realise the difference between the Championship and Premier League, but I'm judging the kid on his entire body of work. Everything I've seen of him makes me think he can be a very good player indeed and he has intangibles that Mikel simply doesn't possess. That's why people talk of him as captain material.

It's also why I'd throw him in. Maybe he'd disappear against teams like Man City or give the ball away against European powerhouses like Juventus and Steaua, but would we really notice the difference?

I haven't compared their ability whatsoever. But you made a point of saying how they've disappeared against big team, but every player in the world does that. Ronaldo was an example as was Schweinsteiger. Does it mean that they should get rid of Ronaldo and play Callejon instead? No, because at the same time he's proven his worth against the big teams too like Mikel and especially Ramires.

You've just pointed out what i'm trying to say. Mikel possess the long range passing etc of Chalobah, in fact there very similar player barring the fact that Chalobah is probably more agile. The difference? Mikel has had to play in the PL, CL etc and try and show his ability at that level. Chalobah has been able to show it at championship level where their is a massive gulf in class. Completely different ball game. Mikel looked like Xavi while playing for Nigeria, but the pressure and quality at Chelsea is different. He could indeed be a very good player, but it's statements like he's just as good as Mikel/Ramires or he'll play ahead of this player next season which I think are just wrong. Plenty of players fail to make the step up to our level despite looking like world beaters playing in a different league.

It's easy to highlight only their bad games. Could just as easily say we'd certainly notice the difference when he's not showing the defensive solidity that Mikel did against Bayern, or the engine and ball-winning qualities of Ramires against United, Arsenal, Spurs, Barca, Valencia

[The only place to be 11,313]

These are the kind of exaggerated expectations that set back Josh's career.

That is a massively simplistic, and wrong, understanding of the issues with Josh.

I haven't compared their ability whatsoever. But you made a point of saying how they've disappeared against big team, but every player in the world does that. Ronaldo was an example as was Schweinsteiger. Does it mean that they should get rid of Ronaldo and play Callejon instead? No, because at the same time he's proven his worth against the big teams too like Mikel and especially Ramires.

You've just pointed out what i'm trying to say. Mikel possess the long range passing etc of Chalobah, in fact there very similar player barring the fact that Chalobah is probably more agile. The difference? Mikel has had to play in the PL, CL etc and try and show his ability at that level. Chalobah has been able to show it at championship level where their is a massive gulf in class. Completely different ball game. Mikel looked like Xavi while playing for Nigeria, but the pressure and quality at Chelsea is different. He could indeed be a very good player, but it's statements like he's just as good as Mikel/Ramires or he'll play ahead of this player next season which I think are just wrong. Plenty of players fail to make the step up to our level despite looking like world beaters playing in a different league.

It's easy to highlight only their bad games. Could just as easily say we'd certainly notice the difference when he's not showing the defensive solidity that Mikel did against Bayern, or the engine and ball-winning qualities of Ramires against United, Arsenal, Spurs, Barca, Valencia

I knew the Ramires game against Arsenal would crop up. We fail to control the ball in midfield (something Chalobah does exceptionally well) so Ramires has to run around for 45 minutes and he does that very well indeed. Against Barca and Spurs he was on the right-wing as well and I will absolutely agree that Ramires is better than Chalobah in that position.

Anyway, we're not going to agree on this so I really can't see the point in discussing it further.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

That is a massively simplistic, and wrong, understanding of the issues with Josh.

Really? Because as far as I remember he missed a whole year of development last season because he was so hyped by everyone, we all first expected him to get regular minutes here then we all expected him to just walk into the Swansea team. These types of expectations are also the reason everyone is writing him off now because he is not performing up to the unrealistic standers they expect of him.

Same could happen with Nathanial if we are not patient. I believe we have a real talent on our hands, I really do. But if we don't take care, he'll turn into another "could have been". He's doing very well in the championship and he's learning a lot. If we can get him a loan at a lower PL side where he is guaranteed regular playing time, then that would be great, if not I'll be very happy to see him loaned back to Watford. Hopefully in a couple of seasons he'll be ready to be a squad player here and get regular minutes.

I'll be the first one to call for youth integration, but to expect an 18yo with no PL experience to just jump into a side challenging for the tittle is just an insane risk, imo. The expectations here are too high and the managers and fans' tolerance too low. Even if he's rose up to challenges before, there is no need to throw him in the deep like that because if he drowns there won't be anyone to save his career here.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Really? Because as far as I remember he missed a whole year of development last season because he was so hyped by everyone, we all first expected him to get regular minutes here then we all expected him to just walk into the Swansea team. These types of expectations are also the reason everyone is writing him off now because he is not performing up to the unrealistic standers they expect of him.

He missed a year not because fans on forum said 'wow, he iz well gud innit' but because AVB fucked him around. He did the same with Lukaku as well, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to say people are writing him off.

Same could happen with Nathanial if we are not patient. I believe we have a real talent on our hands, I really do. But if we don't take care, he'll turn into another "could have been". He's doing very well in the championship and he's learning a lot. If we can get him a loan at a lower PL side where he is guaranteed regular playing time, then that would be great, if not I'll be very happy to see him loaned back to Watford. Hopefully in a couple of seasons he'll be ready to be a squad player here and get regular minutes.

Are you one of those people who thinks there's a prescribed method of nurturing talent that actually ignores the individual requirements of each player? I'm a believer in players being old enough if they're good enough, and rewarding hard work.

I'll be the first one to call for youth integration, but to expect an 18yo with no PL experience to just jump into a side challenging for the tittle is just an insane risk, imo. The expectations here are too high and the managers and fans' tolerance too low. Even if he's rose up to challenges before, there is no need to throw him in the deep like that because if he drowns there won't be anyone to save his career here.

He'll be 19 in December, but again that seems like you're basing your decisions on nothing but his birth certificate. Experience is another interesting measure that people use, but sometimes it's completely overrated.

The simple fact is that players either have the mentality to deal with pressure or they don't. It's not something you learn, it's not something you can be taught and it's not something he'll acquire on a season-long loan to Stoke or West Brom. That's not how football works, that's not how sport works and that's not how life works.

Lukaku is in the mix not because he's learnt anything revolutionary at West Brom, but because he was able to get a chance there. He has the mentality to succeed, Chalobah has the mentality to succeed and all they need is a chance.

[semiller1313 23]

These are the kind of exaggerated expectations that set back Josh's career.

How did expectations affect Josh's career? I think exaggerated expectations mainly affect those with the expectations. Sure, if everybody is telling you how great you are, you can become overly confident, but I don't think anybody would claim has ever been overly confident. When it comes to player development, I feel that some people put too much emphasis on external factors like expectations, playing time, and loans. IMO natural ability and work ethic are 90% of the equation. If a player has what it takes, he will make it; the cream will rise to the top.

Based on what I have seen, Chalobah has what it takes to be a top player. Should we bring him back now? To me, the question is: Is he better than Romeu? Will he be useful for our team right now? If he is, then I say bring him in use him as a backup DM. If not, let him go on loan to a Premiere league team that needs him.

Edit: Oops, looks like "The only place to be" covered this, should of read the whole thread.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

He missed a year not because fans on forum said 'wow, he iz well gud innit' but because AVB fucked him around. He did the same with Lukaku as well, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to say people are writing him off.

It wasn't only forum fans. He was hype by the entire English media which the led to everyone having unrealistic expectations of him, even our board. You can blame AVB all you want, but he's not why everyone thought Josh can walk into the Swansea team.

Are you one of those people who thinks there's a prescribed method of nurturing talent that actually ignores the individual requirements of each player? I'm a believer in players being old enough if they're good enough, and rewarding hard work.

So am I, and what I'm saying is not that Nathanial still has a lot to learn to be good enough to get regular minutes here.

He'll be 19 in December, but again that seems like you're basing your decisions on nothing but his birth certificate. Experience is another interesting measure that people use, but sometimes it's completely overrated.

So you're saying playing a group of youngsters with no European experience in a CL final, even if they have the skills, is the same as playing players with years of experience at the top level? I'm not saying we should never play players with experience, but it's very important, imo.

The simple fact is that players either have the mentality to deal with pressure or they don't. It's not something you learn, it's not something you can be taught and it's not something he'll acquire on a season-long loan to Stoke or West Brom. That's not how football works, that's not how sport works and that's not how life works. Lukaku is in the mix not because he's learnt anything revolutionary at West Brom, but because he was able to get a chance there. He has the mentality to succeed, Chalobah has the mentality to succeed and all they need is a chance.

Lukaku got chances here last season and he was terrible every single time, even with the reserves. What he got at WBA is regular playing time at a top level and that is what Nathanial needs next season as well.

[The only place to be 11,313]

It wasn't only forum fans. He was hype by the entire English media which the led to everyone having unrealistic expectations of him, even our board. You can blame AVB all you want, but he's not why everyone thought Josh can walk into the Swansea team.

Josh had little chance of walking into any team in January because teams are settled by that point and including Josh in the team would take time. He's not an impact player by any measure, and AVB's insistence on keeping him around and not using him (like he did with Lukaku and Bertrand as well) robbed him of a year.

So am I, and what I'm saying is not that Nathanial still has a lot to learn to be good enough to get regular minutes here.

But you won't say what he has to learn...is it a secret?

So you're saying playing a group of youngsters with no European experience in a CL final, even if they have the skills, is the same as playing players with years of experience at the top level? I'm not saying we should never play players with experience, but it's very important, imo.

If we've reached a European final with these kids then they can't be that bad, although I doubt that's the point you're making. Experience is secondary to hunger and talent in my opinion.

Lukaku got chances here last season and he was terrible every single time, even with the reserves. What he got at WBA is regular playing time at a top level and that is what Nathanial needs next season as well.

Lukaku got bits and pieces under the understanding that he was very much third choice. In fact he got game time on the right-wing and when games were virtually over, rather than the minutes he's getting at West Brom. Again, AVB fucked him over and made him feel like he had little chance of getting a fair shot.

Both of them have the types of personalities that can handle pressure in my opinion, and they both have the talent to succeed.

[Leif 6,006]

'wow, he iz well gud innit'

I choked on my drink

[CHOULO19 24,332]

How did expectations affect Josh's career? I think exaggerated expectations mainly affect those with the expectations. Sure, if everybody is telling you how great you are, you can become overly confident, but I don't think anybody would claim has ever been overly confident.

Josh when joining Swansea last season: "I expect to be starting most if not all the remaining games for the rest of the season"

When it comes to player development, I feel that some people put too much emphasis on external factors like expectations, playing time, and loans. IMO natural ability and work ethic are 90% of the equation. If a player has what it takes, he will make it; the cream will rise to the top.

Completely disagree. The way youth players are handled can make or break their careers. That's why clubs pay millions on youth academies to try and find the optimum way to handle young players.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Completely disagree. The way youth players are handled can make or break their careers. That's why clubs pay millions on youth academies to try and find the optimum way to handle young players.

And ultimately it comes down to the individual. People are either born with what it takes to mentally handle their talents or they're not, which is why we place such an emphasis on the intangibles because they can't be taught.

There isn't an academy, coach, potion, spell or serum that can give a kid what Michael Jordan had. It's that will to win, that desire and I think Lukaku and Chalobah both have a bit of that in them. Sadly, and I'm not writing him off because it's too soon, but it's also what I think someone like Josh McEachran is lacking. You can call it arrogance, you can call it swagger or you can call it being a bit of a cunt but that is more important than experience in my view.

[semiller1313 23]

Josh when joining Swansea last season: "I expect to be starting most if not all the remaining games for the rest of the season"

First of all, you shouldn't pay too much attention to what players and managers say. They are all taught to say positive and optimistic things, regardless of the situation. But even if he meant it, what does that really prove? Is his psyche so fragile that he can't handle not getting what he wants, when he wants it?

Completely disagree. The way youth players are handled can make or break their careers. That's why clubs pay millions on youth academies to try and find the optimum way to handle young players.

You are right to a degree, work ethic will only take you so far if you aren't training intelligently. However, at the Premier League level, I think it is safe to assume that all players are being trained competently. Some teams may handle things a little better than others, but I think the differences are quite small, and don't determine whether or not an average player will turn into a star.

[themightyblue 443]

That is a massively simplistic, and wrong, understanding of the issues with Josh.

I knew the Ramires game against Arsenal would crop up. We fail to control the ball in midfield (something Chalobah does exceptionally well) so Ramires has to run around for 45 minutes and he does that very well indeed. Against Barca and Spurs he was on the right-wing as well and I will absolutely agree that Ramires is better than Chalobah in that position.

Anyway, we're not going to agree on this so I really can't see the point in discussing it further.

Well firstly Ramires was playing centrally this season against Spurs which is the game I'm referring too. It's also funny how you criticise someone for being 'simplistic' in this post and then say all Ramires did was 'run around'. But anyway the point of those examples is too show how those players have performed in the big games against the best teams after you only highlighted there bad games saying that Chalobah might make a difference. I can guarantee you Chalobah wouldn't have put in some of the performances we've seen Mikel and Ramires put in against the best teams in Europe (which isn't a bad thing considering how young he is), but you seem to have this highly optimistic view that he's better or not far behind despite the different levels that they're playing at and difference in quality.

[Thomas Williams 166]

I don't think Chalobah should play here if he doesn't get regular minutes. I don't think any developing player should. You look at young players who play as backup for good teams and those who play as regular starters for worse teams, and 9/10 the ones on the worse teams develop much quicker. Regular experience and playing professional matches is imo by far the best way to grow as a player, I'm sure most of you guys agree.

I think playing for a top side is the best way though, even if you're not quite ready and if you start off with a few bad games, but I suppose it's pretty risky if it might cost the team a win.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

And ultimately it comes down to the individual. People are either born with what it takes to mentally handle their talents or they're not, which is why we place such an emphasis on the intangibles because they can't be taught.

There isn't an academy, coach, potion, spell or serum that can give a kid what Michael Jordan had. It's that will to win, that desire and I think Lukaku and Chalobah both have a bit of that in them. Sadly, and I'm not writing him off because it's too soon, but it's also what I think someone like Josh McEachran is lacking. You can call it arrogance, you can call it swagger or you can call it being a bit of a cunt but that is more important than experience in my view.

So how a player is handled and how good the academy and coaches he has aren't important? Never mind, you're clearly just arguing for the sake of arguing now..

First of all, you shouldn't pay too much attention to what players and managers say. They are all taught to say positive and optimistic things, regardless of the situation. But even if he meant it, what does that really prove? Is his psyche so fragile that he can't handle not getting what he wants, when he wants it?

Well Josh and the board sure expected him to get more than 2 games. What it proves is that had Josh not been so over hyped by the fans, the board could have gotten him a more realistic loan and he would not have missed a whole year of development at a crucial age.

[semiller1313 23]

Well Josh and the board sure expected him to get more than 2 games. What it proves is that had Josh not been so over hyped by the fans, the board could have gotten him a more realistic loan and he would not have missed a whole year of development at a crucial age.

I agree that it was poor loan, but I absolutely don't think it had anything to do with the fans. Do you really think the board factors in fan opinion when making player evaluations?

Obviously, it would've been better if he had more playing time, but I don't agree that he lost a whole year of development. Don't you think the thousands of hours he spends in training during the year aid in development? Playing time helps, but I don't think its going to make or break him.

[Thomas Williams 166]

Well Josh and the board sure expected him to get more than 2 games. What it proves is that had Josh not been so over hyped by the fans, the board could have gotten him a more realistic loan and he would not have missed a whole year of development at a crucial age.

I do agree that him being overhyped stunted his growth, he was too young to expect regular minutes at Swansea. I think a lot of the fault was that he was British, and the of course the media is going to make every talented British youth look like the next Zidane.