Gareth Bale

[Sidzeret 2,257]

I don't think injuries to either player is relevant. They both play enough games.

You make some other good points though. Ronaldo may have increased his tally simply by playing worse teams - then again maybe everyone underrates the smaller Spanish teams? I think that is more likely the case. Although it's a good point, and I can't be certain. I do know one thing for sure - they definitely do try to defend him. I see my fair share of Madrid games.

Also, he definitely could have been at his best in 2008. I don't know. He was phenomenal then as well. I just think he's cut out all the tricks and showboating and it's worked for him. Bale and him are quite similar now. If Bale can keep the consistency, who knows?

Anyway, I think Bale and Hazard both have a lot to prove still. I don't think moving tdrid is in Bales best interests either, but I don't think it will stop him progressing. Hazard needs to find a new gear next year (well when the season starts), and Bale needs to keep doing what he is doing consistently. Currently Hazard is trailing.

I don't think injuries to either player is relevant. They both play enough games.

You make some other good points though. Ronaldo may have increased his tally simply by playing worse teams - then again maybe everyone underrates the smaller Spanish teams? I think that is more likely the case. Although it's a good point, and I can't be certain. I do know one thing for sure - they definitely do try to defend him. I see my fair share of Madrid games.

Also, he definitely could have been at his best in 2008. I don't know. He was phenomenal then as well. I just think he's cut out all the tricks and showboating and it's worked for him. Bale and him are quite similar now. If Bale can keep the consistency, who knows?

Anyway, I think Bale and Hazard both have a lot to prove still. I don't think moving to Madrid is in Bales best interests either, but I don't think it will stop him progressing. Hazard needs to find a new gear next year (well when the season starts), and Bale needs to keep doing what he is doing consistently. Currently Hazard is trailing.

I can see Madrid breaking their own record for transfer fee for Hazard in a few years time if Chelsea is ever gonna let him go. Like Zlatan said, Ronaldo and Bale are more of a trained product while the likes of Hazard and Messi are born talents. Bale moving to Madrid is definately in his best interest as he can prove is worth against the smaller Spanish clubs week in week out while Hazard has to work against bigger teams every weak.

I also think Bale can use his pace to run riot around the Spanish defences. Hazard on the other hand- being smaller and more technical- will find it tougher to excel in the EPL it being a more physical sorta league. Clearly, Hazard is at a disadvantage They're gonna start the Ronaldo-Messi thing all over gain in a few years time. Hope Bale doesn't trump Hazard like what Messi's doing to Ronaldo.

[JayC 171]

I can see Madrid breaking their own record for transfer fee for Hazard in a few years time if Chelsea is ever gonna let him go. Like Zlatan said, Ronaldo and Bale are more of a trained product while the likes of Hazard and Messi are born talents. Bale moving to Madrid is definately in his best interest as he can prove is worth against the smaller Spanish clubs week in week out while Hazard has to work against bigger teams every weak.

I also think Bale can use his pace to run riot around the Spanish defences. Hazard on the other hand- being smaller and more technical- will find it tougher to excel in the EPL it being a more physical sorta league. Clearly, Hazard is at a disadvantage They're gonna start the Ronaldo-Messi thing all over gain in a few years time. Hope Bale doesn't trump Hazard like what Messi's doing to Ronaldo.

Ronaldo a trained product? Well yes. Every player is. I've watched him for so many years and let me tell you - the lad has always looked brilliant and full of promise. He's the second best player in the world (some would say first) and he made it by getting trained with less (or none) god given ability than Hazard? No. Ronaldo is a born talent. Not a question in my mind. In fact I don't believe you wouldn't put him in there with Messi. But you put in Hazard? Come on. Go watch Ronaldo's debut for us, and tell me the same. Go watch him at Sporting and tell me he had no god given ability. In fact that is crazy. I don't have any more words for it.

And I'm still not buying that La Liga is so much worse defensively than the PL. I just don't believe it. If this was the case all strikers in that league would score shit tonnes too. Only Messi and Ronaldo, why? It's a bad argument, in my opinion. Stop trying to make up excuses to favor Hazard... I won't buy them. Plain and simple.

In fact looking into it.

Goals scored in the PL season 2012/2013; 1111

Goals scored in La Liga season 2012/2013; 1091

Less goals were scored in La Liga last season, and going by your argument that means it is actually harder there.

In my mind this means the leagues are very similar. Even pull up the tables and sorting goals conceded shows very similar results when compared to the PL. The truth is both leagues are very similar, and Hazard will not be at any disadvantage. Argument void.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Ronaldo a trained product? Well yes. Every player is. I've watched him for so many years and let me tell you - the lad has always looked brilliant and full of promise. He's the second best player in the world (some would say first) and he made it by getting trained with less (or none) god given ability than Hazard? No. Ronaldo is a born talent. Not a question in my mind. In fact I don't believe you wouldn't put him in there with Messi. But you put in Hazard? Come on. Go watch Ronaldo's debut for us, and tell me the same. Go watch him at Sporting and tell me he had no god given ability. In fact that is crazy. I don't have any more words for it.

And I'm still not buying that La Liga is so much worse defensively than the PL. I just don't believe it. If this was the case all strikers in that league would score shit tonnes too. Only Messi and Ronaldo, why? It's a bad argument, in my opinion. Stop trying to make up excuses to favor Hazard... I won't buy them. Plain and simple.

In fact looking into it.

Goals scored in the PL season 2012/2013; 1111

Goals scored in La Liga season 2012/2013; 1091

Less goals were scored in La Liga last season, and going by your argument that means it is actually harder there.

In my mind this means the leagues are very similar. Even pull up the tables and sorting goals conceded shows very similar results when compared to the PL. The truth is both leagues are very similar, and Hazard will not be at any disadvantage. Argument void.

I'm not arguing the fact that Ronaldo is a better player than Hazard at the moment. No wonder Hazard never made it to the shortlist for the Ballon D'Or.

Looking at the stats

At United Apps 196 Gls 84

At Madrid Apps 135 Gls 146

and they say he never reached his peak at Madrid like his last few seasons at United.

This goes to show the vulnerability of the Spanish defences - atleast the defenses of the smaller clubs. RM and Barcelona share a whole chunk of that 1000 goals scored while in the EPL, its not the case.

Do you honestly think he wud've scored that many goals if he had stayed at Old Trafford? Ronaldo craves attention and has a lot of energy in him which adds to his success while Hazard is almost sluggish at times when it comes to scoring goals.Given the right circumstances Hazard could be a better player than Ronaldo...and i still believe that Hazard is more of a pure talent than Ronaldo and you can argue all you want.

[Stingray 9,441]

It is indeed easy to be biased. But I feel a lot of the bias favours Bale. Most on here are English or watch a LOT of EPL - no offense guys. Jus ....Eden Hazard had a past you know. And a better one than Bale by all means. I know The french league is considered weaker .... but the numbers on Hazard will speak for themselves.

Now, to avoid a bias, let's see some data! We will have to keep in mind Eden is two years younger and would actually have two more years time to surpass the Bale stats (which he actually does now already. Because I a a lazy mofo i will just Wiki this shit :-) I have done it before in the Hazard thread with official stats ... pfft not again.

Lets see Bale. They both have a two year age difference so I will start their 'career' stats with a two year lag to compensate.

Gareth Bale:

From 2005 to now a total of 60 goals. Last year 8 assists (Whoscored.com). Everyone knows his Curriculum of performances.

Now Eden

A total of 63 goals and 68 assists in TWO YEARS LESS. Granted a lot in the french league, but the difference is not that, that this number is meaningless. That claim would be hybris galore.

Add to this Eden's Curriculum:

• Best player on European Championship -17 (with Bojan)
• Debut for the NT at 17
• 1 time French Champion in 2011
• Coupe de France in 2011
• Best young player of the french league 2x 2009, 2010
• Best player of the French league 2x 2011, 2012
• Ligue 1: in squad of the season 3x 2010, 2011, 2012
• Ligue 1 player of the month 4x march 2010, march 2011, march 2012, april 2012
• Étoile d'or France Football 1x 2011
• Trofeo Bravo 1x 2011
• PFA Team of the Year 1x 2013
• Europa League 1x 2013
• Player of the month here at chelsea ... Forgot when
• Almost 30 NT caps (Bale 41 but + 2 years)

This all gives me the impression people rate Bale higher because he simply was more salient - more visible for the EPL audience. Somehow I find nothing in the numbers, titles, awards from pundits of players that justifies placing Bale on a much higher platform. Nothing seems to justify the humonguous, astronomical numbers paid for him - especially if you consider Ronaldo's performances when he got transferred. Bale has a highly aggressive style that payed off this year. even more than Eden he will have to 'confirm' this year at Real.

am just glad we have Eden and the numbers tell me I am right - as well as my heart.

So @JayC I agree to disagree with you and call out your own bias. In all friendliness of course, mate (you red fucker). I think you might underestimate Hazard (others as well on here , mind you).

[JayC 171]

I think you'll find I haven't been biased at all. Previous seasons were not mentioned and I did say quite clearly, that I was stating the best player at the current time, meaning now. I wasn't interested in what Hazard has done in the Ligue 1. You touched on it yourself - the league is pretty poor to begin with, but it was never mentioned. If you want me to take that into account, it's fine. However It's a bit meaningless regarding who is currently better in the SAME league. That was a much better way of judging.

Yes Hazard played well in Ligue 1 - yes he's won more awards. It all means nothing though as he fell short of Bale this season. Bale stepped up massively. We are still waiting on Hazard to do the same and justify all of this huge potential. The difference is now - Bale won two awards in a superior league. Past means so little.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying Stingray, or you wouldn't call me biased. Let me make it clear. Hazard is a wonderful player with big potential. A player I've seen my fair share of. I know he's going to be good, and has proven this already in one league. I didn't need it pointed out in stats. My argument was simple - Bale is better now. I'm not sure that can be argued, as I said earlier in the thread. Hazard is a player I had hope we would sign - obviously that tells you a lot too? I mean I'm not trying to bag him or anything like that, he's just not as good regardless of what is in his past.

Let him prove he can be better.

[Stingray 9,441]

I think you'll find I haven't been biased at all. Previous seasons were not mentioned and I did say quite clearly, that I was stating the best player at the current time, meaning now. I wasn't interested in what Hazard has done in the Ligue 1. You touched on it yourself - the league is pretty poor to begin with, but it was never mentioned. If you want me to take that into account, it's fine. However It's a bit meaningless regarding who is currently better in the SAME league. That was a much better way of judging.

Yes Hazard played well in Ligue 1 - yes he's won more awards. It all means nothing though as he fell short of Bale this season. Bale stepped up massively. We are still waiting on Hazard to do the same and justify all of this huge potential. The difference is now - Bale won two awards in a superior league. Past means so little.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying Stingray, or you wouldn't call me biased. Let me make it clear. Hazard is a wonderful player with big potential. A player I've seen my fair share of. I know he's going to be good, and has proven this already in one league. I didn't need it pointed out in stats. My argument was simple - Bale is better now. I'm not sure that can be argued, as I said earlier in the thread. Hazard is a player I had hope we would sign - obviously that tells you a lot too? I mean I'm not trying to bag him or anything like that, he's just not as good regardless of what is in his past.

Let him prove it.

Ow my!

No, you got me wrong. My post was about the debate about who was best. My intro dealing with the 'target audience' did not mention you at all actually.

Your last remark just gave me the lolz

But you put in Hazard? Come on.

So I added a remark to end. Banter mate, you got the red on your profile pic. So I wanted to tease you a bit (especially after you saying 'Ronaldo'. The post in itself wasn't really about you.

[yuvala 2,167]

I think you'll find I haven't been biased at all. Previous seasons were not mentioned and I did say quite clearly, that I was stating the best player at the current time, meaning now. I wasn't interested in what Hazard has done in the Ligue 1. You touched on it yourself - the league is pretty poor to begin with, but it was never mentioned. If you want me to take that into account, it's fine. However It's a bit meaningless regarding who is currently better in the SAME league. That was a much better way of judging.

Yes Hazard played well in Ligue 1 - yes he's won more awards. It all means nothing though as he fell short of Bale this season. Bale stepped up massively. We are still waiting on Hazard to do the same and justify all of this huge potential. The difference is now - Bale won two awards in a superior league. Past means so little.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying Stingray, or you wouldn't call me biased. Let me make it clear. Hazard is a wonderful player with big potential. A player I've seen my fair share of. I know he's going to be good, and has proven this already in one league. I didn't need it pointed out in stats. My argument was simple - Bale is better now. I'm not sure that can be argued, as I said earlier in the thread. Hazard is a player I had hope we would sign - obviously that tells you a lot too? I mean I'm not trying to bag him or anything like that, he's just not as good regardless of what is in his past.

Let him prove he can be better.

I actually have to agree ..

CURRENTLY, Bale is the better, more effective player IMO .

Whether he has a higher ceilling or higher potential isn't relevant right now I think..

[Weckerz 3,781]

I think you'll find I haven't been biased at all. Previous seasons were not mentioned and I did say quite clearly, that I was stating the best player at the current time, meaning now. I wasn't interested in what Hazard has done in the Ligue 1. You touched on it yourself - the league is pretty poor to begin with, but it was never mentioned. If you want me to take that into account, it's fine. However It's a bit meaningless regarding who is currently better in the SAME league. That was a much better way of judging.

Yes Hazard played well in Ligue 1 - yes he's won more awards. It all means nothing though as he fell short of Bale this season. Bale stepped up massively. We are still waiting on Hazard to do the same and justify all of this huge potential. The difference is now - Bale won two awards in a superior league. Past means so little.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying Stingray, or you wouldn't call me biased. Let me make it clear. Hazard is a wonderful player with big potential. A player I've seen my fair share of. I know he's going to be good, and has proven this already in one league. I didn't need it pointed out in stats. My argument was simple - Bale is better now. I'm not sure that can be argued, as I said earlier in the thread. Hazard is a player I had hope we would sign - obviously that tells you a lot too? I mean I'm not trying to bag him or anything like that, he's just not as good regardless of what is in his past.

Let him prove it.

Bale had a season where every attempt from outside of the box went into the net, props to him ofcourse, amazing shooting ability. Combined with his physical presence he was a force and carried Tottenham.

Eden outclassed him in the last months of the season though.

If Mourinho can make him more of a goalscorer he'll easily be better than Bale. Imho he's better at every aspect of the game apart from finishing and pace (and strength I suppose).

Inb4 double bias

[yuvala 2,167]

Bale had a season where every attempt from outside of the box went into the net, props to him ofcourse, amazing shooting ability. Compared with his physical presence he was a force and carried Tottenham.

Eden outclassed him in the last months of the season though.

If Mourinho can make him more of a goalscorer he'll easily be better than Bale. Imho he's better at every aspect of the game apart from finishing and pace (and strength I suppose).

Inb4 double bias

If he can score as many as Bale, then he'd certainly be the better player.

Really hope Mou can make him a scorer.

[Stingray 9,441]

I actually have to agree ..

CURRENTLY, Bale is the better, more effective player IMO .

Whether he has a higher ceilling or higher potential isn't relevant right now I think..

Bale had a season where every attempt from outside of the box went into the net, props to him ofcourse, amazing shooting ability. Compared with his physical presence he was a force and carried Tottenham.

Eden outclassed him in the last months of the season though.

If Mourinho can make him more of a goalscorer he'll easily be better than Bale. Imho he's better at every aspect of the game apart from finishing and pace (and strength I suppose).

Inb4 double bias

Yes. But that is exactly the reason this debate on who is actually .... better/has a higher ceiling/.... needs the perspective of history as well. Bale did awesome, Eden very well. eden had his maiden year.

But the variable of played best next year to determine who's the best/promising/..... is a very bad one. Hazard did not as well as he did this year - but for Bale everything worked and Eden had his first year starting in a transition situation, a lot of young guys, a thin squad, sacking of the manager, ball boy shit, FSW ... So .... the only way to intelligibly is keep history in mind. Hazard might have played in a weaker league. Ligue 1 is not ALL the weak thing people some make of it -. And he ripped that place apart. Multiple years.

It gives the Bale/Hazard thing a new perspective .... that's all :-)

[yuvala 2,167]

Yes. But that is exactly the reason this debate on who is actually .... better/has a higher ceiling/.... needs the perspective of history as well. Bale did awesome, Eden very well. eden had his maiden year.

But the variable of played best next year to determine who's the best/promising/..... is a very bad one. Hazard did not as well as he did this year - but for Bale everything worked and Eden had his first year starting in a transition situation, a lot of young guys, a thin squad, sacking of the manager, ball boy shit, FSW ... So .... the only way to intelligibly is keep history in mind. Hazard might have played in a weaker league. Ligue 1 is not ALL the weak thing people some make of it -. And he ripped that place apart. Multiple years.

It gives the Bale/Hazard thing a new perspective .... that's all :-)

Hazard might just be better than Bale in 1-2 years, who knows maybe even this year ..

I really really hope so.

But can't say it for sure right now.. we'll have to wait.

[Stingray 9,441]

If he can score as many as Bale, then he'd certainly be the better player.

Really hope Mou can make him a scorer.

But, but, no! ..... this is my point exactly. Bale objectively didn't score that much more. Yes This year. But before .... much less. Eden more ... now less (transition).

It makes no sense at all to limit the concept of quality for a player to a 1 season term . Wuuuut?

[yuvala 2,167]

But, but, no! ..... this is my point exactly. Bale objectively didn't score that much more. Yes This year. But before .... much less. Eden more ... now less (transition).

It makes no sense at all to limit the concept of quality for a player to a 1 season term . Wuuuut?

Hopefuly this year Hazard will have atleast 15 goals in the PL. 20+ would be amazing ..

This year he had 9.

[Stingray 9,441]

Hopefuly this year Hazard will have atleast 15 goals in the PL. 20+ would be amazing ..

This year he had 9.

But you prove my point! It is not about just one year to rate a guy. Especially if one is on the high and the other starting to settle in. Quality is not the same concept than a one year performance.

Last season , Eden got also more assists and I grant Bale did awesome scoring. Fab. But the year before: 9, the year before: 7, the year before: 3 and the year before: 0

.

Eden :

Last year 9 (first season!), The year before: 20(15 assists), the year before: 7(11 assists), The year before 5, Then 4

While being 2 years younger in this.

So .... It's a close call. Not a clear cut 'Bale is awesome thing'.

[JayC 171]

Ow my!

No, you got me wrong. My post was about the debate about who was best. My intro dealing with the 'target audience' did not mention you at all actually.

Your last remark just gave me the lolz

So I added a remark to end. Banter mate, you got the red on your profile pic. So I wanted to tease you a bit (especially after you saying 'Ronaldo'. The post in itself wasn't really about you.

No problem. Banter all you want, but biased I am not. I call it like I see it. I can get things wrong though like anybody else. Biased, no.

I actually have to agree ..

CURRENTLY, Bale is the better, more effective player IMO .

Whether he has a higher ceilling or higher potential isn't relevant right now I think..

Thank you. Finally somebody that agrees. I thought this was turning into a pointless debate with so much negativity. I guess it's nearly run its course though - I didn't ever think I would win this one on a Chelsea forum anyway.

Bale had a season where every attempt from outside of the box went into the net, props to him ofcourse, amazing shooting ability. Combined with his physical presence he was a force and carried Tottenham.

Eden outclassed him in the last months of the season though.

If Mourinho can make him more of a goalscorer he'll easily be better than Bale. Imho he's better at every aspect of the game apart from finishing and pace (and strength I suppose).

Inb4 double bias

I've never argued he can't be better. I agree with you. I'm not sure about 'easily' better than Bale though. You have to give a player the respect he deserves when he's had such a great season. Until he starts to flop or whatever you have to give him it. There is nothing written in stone about Hazard becoming a footballing god. I can see you are all excited about him, as I would be, but the fact he gets hyped up or has some sort of super potential is simply heresay until it's proven.

Yes. But that is exactly the reason this debate on who is actually .... better/has a higher ceiling/.... needs the perspective of history as well. Bale did awesome, Eden very well. eden had his maiden year.

But the variable of played best next year to determine who's the best/promising/..... is a very bad one. Hazard did not as well as he did this year - but for Bale everything worked and Eden had his first year starting in a transition situation, a lot of young guys, a thin squad, sacking of the manager, ball boy shit, FSW ... So .... the only way to intelligibly is keep history in mind. Hazard might have played in a weaker league. Ligue 1 is not ALL the weak thing people some make of it -. And he ripped that place apart. Multiple years.

It gives the Bale/Hazard thing a new perspective .... that's all :-)

I don't agree that it needs history. History is just that. You can't live on past glories in football IMO. I don't see an easier way to say who is best currently than having two players go at it in the same league. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

[Stingray 9,441]

biased I am not. I call it like I see it. I can g:-)et things wrong though like anybody else. Biased, no

The very essence of a cognitive bias is that it is unconscious, unaware off and involunatary. The way you see it, has every bit of your bias in it, as I have mine.

That is why we talk, debate and confront.

[yuvala 2,167]

Thank you. Finally somebody that agrees. I thought this was turning into a pointless debate with so much negativity. I guess it's nearly run its course though - I didn't ever think I would win this one on a Chelsea forum anyway.

Well these arguments always lead to a dead end. You can't be sure about something like this, there are so many things to consider, and something you consider relevant is not nessecairly relevant to someone else. The thing is that there's no black or white, if u know what I mean.

Its like when fighting over CR7 vs. Messi.. its endless. You can say Messi scored more, you can say Ronaldo is more physical, you can say Messi can't do without Xavi and Iniesta, you can say Ronaldo sucks in Portugal, you can say Messi sucks in Argentina, you can say Ronaldo has a better shot, you can say Messi has better accuracy.... it's fucking ENDLESS.

[JayC 171]

The very essence of a cognitive bias is that it is unconscious, unaware off and involunatary. The way you see it, has every bit of your bias in it, as I have mine.

That is why we talk, debate and confront.

I don't even like Gareth Bale, mate. Go figure it out now.

Well these arguments always lead to a dead end. You can't be sure about something like this, there are so many things to consider, and something you consider relevant is not nessecairly relevant to someone else. The thing is that there's no black or white, if u know what I mean.

Its like when fighting over CR7 vs. Messi.. its endless. You can say Messi scored more, you can say Ronaldo is more physical, you can say Messi can't do without Xavi and Iniesta, you can say Ronaldo sucks in Portugal, you can say Messi sucks in Argentina, you can say Ronaldo has a better shot, you can say Messi has better accuracy.... it's fucking ENDLESS.

I agree. Well said.

[Stingray 9,441]

History is just that.

Lol. Ow Comon, you make a strawman out of me, mate.

If player history is just that (and i mean the players recent history - see the original post) - some players - like Rooney - would suddenly drop in 'ability'. That is foolish. Previous recent performances do count. What are you gonna do? Rate the players quality by match?

[Stingray 9,441]

I don't even like Gareth Bale, mate. Go figure it out now.

Who said you had to? Just google 'Confirmation Bias'.