closed Chelsea 3-0 West Ham

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19 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

In attack, irrespective of the formation, we would have struggled with our injuries. So you dont just forsake something which has worked so well for 17 consecutive games. We would have struggled in the everton game regardless. We have been struggling there for years and years.

Easy for you to say that now because we wouldn't be able to find out what would have happened. And just because we have struggled at Everton in recent years, it doesn't mean we should just accept our fate, does it? What kind of mindset is that!?

19 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

And if FL had changed the formation and lost, then people would have wanted his head for chopping and changing something that was working so well. 

The ironic thing about is there were people who pointed out we should change formation for the Everton game. The 4-3-3 was working well before then because we had the players for it but that wasn't the case at Everton, was it?

And I see you have gone from blindly supporting Lampard to doubting Lampard and now back to blindly supporting Lampard.

[Puliiszola 519]

5 minutes ago, Jason said:

Easy for you to say that now because we wouldn't be able to find out what would have happened. And just because we have struggled at Everton in recent years, it doesn't mean we should just accept our fate, does it? What kind of mindset is that!?

I can say the same thing. Its easy for you to say that the formation change would have worked, when it could have made things worse, with destabilizing our mid and defence along with our attack. And who is talking about accepting "the fate". Simply stating the fact, that was never going to be an easy fixture, regardless of the formation (given our injuries). Using that one point to beat down FL when it made lesser sense to change the formation is mindless.

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

The ironic thing about is there were people who pointed out we should change formation for the Everton game. The 4-3-3 was working well before then because we had the players for it but that wasn't the case at Everton, was it?

And I see you have gone from blindly supporting Lampard to doubting Lampard and now back to blindly supporting Lampard.

The 4-3-3 was working well because of the mid. And we had the same mid. Our attack has been hit and miss all season long. So I disagree with your point. 

What was my point of doubting FL? One game, after Soton. And who is it coming from? You simply attack FL or defend him as per your convenience.  

[Puliiszola 519]

25 minutes ago, Jason said:

Really? Below are some examples of his recent heatmaps...

Werner is still making some runs into central areas, like Pulisic from wide areas, but do those look like someone who is "playing quite centrally and infact the same channels"? Also have more where those came from.

Except for the Wolves heatmap, they dont look as someone playing quite centrally? I would love his comparison with someone like SON who plays as a LW but basically drifts centrally when on the ball. I mean I am surprised thats a point of contention that when we are in attack, werner is playing as an amalgamation of LW and LS rather than a traditional LW.

32 minutes ago, Jason said:

But at the same time, Werner also mentioned his role here is much different than what it was at RB Leipzig and even Lampard himself said it last week. 

Obviously its a different role. And most of the people are willing to give him the time. But thats not the point. You can play a different position and still do the basic things well. He is not. Also, you cant say he is not being used properly tactically to take a dig on FL when he has HAD to be used in this way due to the injuries to our wingers. 

36 minutes ago, Jason said:

Do people just not bothered to read posts anymore? Who the hell is blaming Lampard for Werner's poor finishing? Make no mistake, Werner's poor finishing is on him but people really need to differentiate the difference between the issue of Werner missing chances and the issue of how Werner is being used in the team right now. The latter is no excuse for the former but it is certainly an issue.

No, its simply the fact that it makes no sense. If werner's finishing had been even "OKAY", then he would have had a goal in each of the game. He has definitely had oppurtunities, so I would say he IS being used quite well in the team given our injuries and that he is technically "playing out of position". Its not like he is simply crossing the ball, infact he finds himself at the end of crosses, it simply a fact that he is unable to finish them. If he takes his chances, would you still say there is "an issue of how werner is being used". Hell NO. 

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4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I can say the same thing. Its easy for you to say that the formation change would have worked, when it could have made things worse, with destabilizing our mid and defence along with our attack. And who is talking about accepting "the fate". Simply stating the fact, that was never going to be an easy fixture, regardless of the formation (given our injuries). Using that one point to beat down FL when it made lesser sense to change the formation is mindless.

No one said it would have worked for sure but at least try to change it. Otherwise, never try, never know?

5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

The 4-3-3 was working well because of the mid. And we had the same mid. Our attack has been hit and miss all season long. So I disagree with your point.

We also had wingers available during the unbeaten run but no winger was available at Everton.

5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

What was my point of doubting FL? One game, after Soton. And who is it coming from?

You know what you said about Lampard back then. It wasn't just because of what happened against Southampton. The Southampton game was straw that broke the camel's back for you. And you even said Lampard should be sacked if we don't get at least 80 points this season, regardless of where we finish.

On 10/18/2020 at 4:08 PM, Puliiszola said:

I have been one of the staunchest supporters for FL, but this is getting beyond ridiculous now.

I don't get the tactics, I don't get the team selection of playing kepa and mount as a winger, I don't get the lack of confidence to take on soton, I don't get why we have changed our formation from a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 just to suit Kai havertz who looks okay when clearly our midfield options just are not suited for a double pivot. It's getting beyond embarrassing now. 

 

On 10/18/2020 at 4:17 PM, Puliiszola said:

It was a good defensive performance, because CP were way too passive. They did not attack us, they were happy to simply counter, which we snuffed out.

When teams really get at us, attack us, we are so fucking shit. Conceded 3 against wba, conceded 3 against soton. Combined those 2 won't be scoring 3 or more goals in a game in more than 5 matches all season in PL. Jorginho is shit when attacked and put under pressure, Kanye just runs like a headless chicken. Kai is a luxury player and needs a strong CM pairing and defence to thrive. Defence is a shsmble. Alright, we know defensively we suck, what have we done in attack? When teams press us, we can't even beat a league 2 teams' press. It's utter tosh.

 

On 10/18/2020 at 4:18 PM, Puliiszola said:

It has been replaced by the realism that we have a bunch of pussies in the squad with no leadership and FL just does not know what he is doing. 

That single performance was an absolute sucker punch

 

On 10/18/2020 at 4:24 PM, Puliiszola said:

There are moments which change you and your perspective. Our play at 2-0 up and then our reaction to going 2-1 into HT was it for me. And I don't see things changing, it seems to be a confidence issue among the squad where we just crumble at the slightest amount of pressure. And FL just seems to be unable to change it.

 

On 10/18/2020 at 5:54 PM, Puliiszola said:

I feel we will give him the season. But just this season. 

Irrespective of where we finish the season, if we don't get 80 points, he should get the sack. No matter if he gets top 4 with 72-75 points. 

 

On 10/18/2020 at 6:27 PM, Puliiszola said:

Point with top 4 being a barometer of success is that, we basically accept mediocrity. Even right now, with a bad start to the season, we are still 6th. Because the league as a whole is shit. No consistency whatsoever. 

That's the only reason, I would rather have a definitive aim in mind. 80 points for me. If we can't get 80 points, it's a failed season, irrespective of where we end up, because the position will be determined how the rest of the teams play. We need to look at ourselves. For me, it's 80 points or sack.

 

On 10/18/2020 at 9:34 PM, Puliiszola said:

I can see your point, but can't accept it.

Let's be honest, we were dominated by Brighton, we were dominated by wba for 45 mins and we were dominated by soton for more than 2/3rd of the game. Let's not even go to pool.

Palace was either an out of the world performance from us, or a shit showing from them. 

Also against United, they had 20% of the ball, it was a classic counter attacking performance. Palace have always played passively, sitting deep and then countering. As much as I would want to believe you, I just can't based on all the rest of our performances and the way palace normally sets up.

And lastly...

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

You simply attack FL or defend him as per your convenience.  

I praise him when it's due and criticize him when it's due. If everything was really going smoothly, I wouldn't be sitting here and questioning him at all. In fact, don't think anyone would but the fact that we are, suggests something is not quite right at the moment.

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20 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Except for the Wolves heatmap, they dont look as someone playing quite centrally? I would love his comparison with someone like SON who plays as a LW but basically drifts centrally when on the ball. I mean I am surprised thats a point of contention that when we are in attack, werner is playing as an amalgamation of LW and LS rather than a traditional LW.

He made runs into central areas against Wolves, just like he does in every other game, but he still spent a big chunk of that game out wide, as seen in that heatmap. Moreover, if Werner is not playing like a traditional LW and he is playing centrally as you claimed, then explain this...

20 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Obviously its a different role. And most of the people are willing to give him the time. But thats not the point. You can play a different position and still do the basic things well. He is not. Also, you cant say he is not being used properly tactically to take a dig on FL when he has HAD to be used in this way due to the injuries to our wingers. 

Right now? Yes and I would have agreed with this except for the fact that Lampard had CHO and Ziyech available together at one point - Pulisic was out during that period - and Lampard still chose to play Werner out on the left instead of CHO. So, is there any guarantee that Lampard would not play Werner out wide even when we have all our wingers available? 

20 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

No, its simply the fact that it makes no sense. If werner's finishing had been even "OKAY", then he would have had a goal in each of the game. He has definitely had oppurtunities, so I would say he IS being used quite well in the team given our injuries and that he is technically "playing out of position". Its not like he is simply crossing the ball, infact he finds himself at the end of crosses, it simply a fact that he is unable to finish them. 

But as I mentioned in other posts, what does Werner do apart from getting at the end of chances when being used out wide? We practically have a non-existent threat from one of the flanks because we know he is not a winger and he is not going to beat players to create chances. It is just whether he can get at the end of the chances. I mean, we spent 50 million on him and this is how we are gonna use him? And as I also said above, Lampard had CHO and Ziyech available at the same time at one point but he still chose to shoehorn Werner out wide and leave CHO out in the cold.

20 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

If he takes his chances, would you still say there is "an issue of how werner is being used". Hell NO. 

Hell YES and that's because I have been saying it since September, long before he had a good goalscoring run and is in this current goal drought, that he is being wasted out wide.

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cc @Tomo

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[Puliiszola 519]

15 minutes ago, Jason said:

No one said it would have worked for sure but at least try to change it. Otherwise, never try, never know?

We also had wingers available during the unbeaten run but no winger was available at Everton.

You know what you said about Lampard back then. It wasn't just because of what happened against Southampton. The Southampton game was straw that broke the camel's back for you. And you even said Lampard should be sacked if we don't get at least 80 points this season, regardless of where we finish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And lastly...

I praise him when it's due and criticize him when it's due. If everything was really going smoothly, I wouldn't be sitting here and questioning him at all. In fact, don't think anyone would but the fact that we are, suggests something is not quite right at the moment.

One of my main issues was the chopping and changing. I could not see a pattern of play, what roles the players used to play. What is wrong in that? I wanted stability and a stable formation. In one of the post, I say as much, "why did we change a stable 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1". You can keep chopping and changing, but at the end of the day, if you are looking for a dynasty, then you play YOUR way. You dont see Liverpool changing their formation, you did not see Barca changing their way from 4-3-3. 

Also, if you give FL his due, its fine. But if I do it, its not? You can go from PRO FL to beating him about a formation change, but I cant because he keeps playing jorginho, kepa, changing formation. He did the exact thing, I am against, CHANGING FORMATION. 

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9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

One of my main issues was the chopping and changing. I could not see a pattern of play, what roles the players used to play. What is wrong in that? I wanted stability and a stable formation. In one of the post, I say as much, "why did we change a stable 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1". You can keep chopping and changing, but at the end of the day, if you are looking for a dynasty, then you play YOUR way.

For the record, I never said you were wrong. Just thought the sudden change of tact again was "strange", to put it kindly especially when you said he should be sacked if we don't get 80 points.

The ironic thing is Lampard stumbled upon the 4-3-3 by accident, not that he suddenly came to know about the existence of the formation but the things that suddenly work. He certainly did not have a set system in place when the season started.

I agree the chopping and changing from last season was ridiculous but I don't think there's anything ridiculous if we change the formation like once every 5 or 10 games if/when needed. Most managers do it anyway. We used to change between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 during Mourinho's second spell here for example.

9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

you did not see Barca changing their way from 4-3-3.

They have actually. Barcelona have been playing 4-2-3-1 at times under Koeman, for instance. They even played 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 against Bayern last season under Quique Setien. 

[Puliiszola 519]

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

He made runs into central areas against Wolves, just like he does in every other game, but he still spent a big chunk of that game out wide, as seen in that heatmap. Moreover, if Werner is not playing like a traditional LW and he is playing centrally as you claimed, then explain this...

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Puliiszola said:

We are without Ziyech, CHO just came back from injury, so what were/are our options out wide? Tammy? Giroud? Out of all available options, Werner is the best available option. Also, he is not playing as a traditional winger, definitely not staying out wide and simply supplying the width. If he was being asked to do THAT, it would have been wrong tactically. He is playing quite centrally and infact the same channels he used to love to play in Leipzig (between the FB and CB). Werner has been poor by his own standards and he himself admitted that. Stop making excuses and pinning them on FL when we literally dont have a better option. 

i dont know what you seem to have understood from the bolded part, but I think its pretty self-explanatory. If you think werner, is playing like a traditional winger, then good for you. I cant argue then. 

Ofcourse, if he plays, as a LW, he has to maintain position specially in defence, he cant get into the dangerous positions specially in transition. But given how much of the ball we generally have, and his position when we do have the ball, the point still stand, he is not being used as a "traditional winger". 

13 minutes ago, Jason said:

Right now? Yes and I would have agreed with this except for the fact that Lampard had CHO and Ziyech available together at one point - Pulisic was out during that period - and Lampard still chose to play Werner out on the left instead of CHO. So, is there any guarantee that Lampard would not play Werner out wide even when we have all our wingers available? 

FL's lack of faith in CHO cant be equated to werner playing ahead of Puli as a LW and Ziyech as a RW. Lets wait and watch and revisit this once (hopefully, how is it possible that ziyech and puli have not been fit at the same time) both are fit. I have no doubt where werner would start.

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

But as I mentioned in other posts, what does Werner do apart from getting at the end of chances when being used out wide? We practically have a non-existent threat from one of the flanks because we know he is not a winger and he is not going to beat players to create chances. It is just whether he can get at the end of the chances. I mean, we spent 50 million on him and this is how we are gonna use him? And as I also said above, Lampard had CHO and Ziyech available at the same time at one point but he still chose to shoehorn Werner out wide and leave CHO out in the cold.

Hell YES and that's because I have been saying it since September, long before he had a good goalscoring run and is in this current goal drought, that he is being wasted out wide.

These are problems, which come when you have injuries. Can you give me a solution, a solution that involves not playing a double pivot as none of our CMs are good at it. You keep using CHO as if FL trusts him, when its quite clear that he does not do that YET. 

[communicate 2,703]

7 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

One of my main issues was the chopping and changing. I could not see a pattern of play, what roles the players used to play. What is wrong in that? I wanted stability and a stable formation. In one of the post, I say as much, "why did we change a stable 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1". You can keep chopping and changing, but at the end of the day, if you are looking for a dynasty, then you play YOUR way. You dont see Liverpool changing their formation, you did not see Barca changing their way from 4-3-3. 

Also, if you give FL his due, its fine. But if I do it, its not? You can go from PRO FL to beating him about a formation change, but I cant because he keeps playing jorginho, kepa, changing formation. He did the exact thing, I am against, CHANGING FORMATION. 

Changing formation is perfectly fine, pool play 433 and 4231. Not a problem. 

Like I said before Lamp is probably not sure on how to best utilize this team, injury and lack of training doesn't help.

[Puliiszola 519]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

For the record, I never said you were wrong. Just thought the sudden change of tact again was "strange", to put it kindly especially when you said he should be sacked if we don't get 80 points.

I did not expect this to be the season it is turning out to be. Did you? Did anyone? People expected Leicester, everton, soton, WHU, Wolves, Villa to be within just 6 points of 2nd place with more 1/3rd of the season played when the season started? I did not. 80 points would have been fair objective at the start of a normal season for me. But given how its gone, you have to change the objective.

9 minutes ago, Jason said:

The ironic thing is Lampard stumbled upon the 4-3-3 by accident, not that he suddenly came to know about the existence of the formation but the things that suddenly work. He certainly did not have a set system in place when the season started.

I agree the chopping and changing from last season was ridiculous but I don't think there's anything ridiculous if we change the formation like once every 5 or 10 games if/when needed. Most managers do it anyway. We used to change between 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 during Mourinho's second spell here for example.

Exactly. At that moment, it simply felt that he did not know what to do and how to use. I always felt (since the restart when we did play kante as a 6), that Kante was the best option with 2 no. 8s. Somehow FL seemed hell bent on not doing that and playing jorginho in the team when he just is not a good fit for PL. even last night, we became a 10 times better team and mid as soon as Jorgi was subbed. 

Anyways, I simply dont understand what that has to do with the current discusssion. At that moment we seemed directionless with a complete lack of play structure. And had nothing to do with results. The current hoopla around FL is based on 2 defeats after 17 unbeaten games. Seems massively unfair to me.

14 minutes ago, Jason said:

They have actually. Barcelona have been playing 4-2-3-1 at times under Koeman, for instance. They even played 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 against Bayern last season under Quique Setien. 

When i said "you did not see Barca changing their way from 4-3-3.", i meant the successful one. The dynasty one. I feel this team has it them to be a dynasty of sorts similar to that barca team or current pool team. The current barca is a joke led by a clown in koeman. If you think Riqui Puig should not be starting ahead of all the joke midfielders or 30+ has beens, there is something really really wrong with you as manager.

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19 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

i dont know what you seem to have understood from the bolded part, but I think its pretty self-explanatory. If you think werner, is playing like a traditional winger, then good for you. I cant argue then. 

Ofcourse, if he plays, as a LW, he has to maintain position specially in defence, he cant get into the dangerous positions specially in transition. But given how much of the ball we generally have, and his position when we do have the ball, the point still stand, he is not being used as a "traditional winger". 

If Werner is not being used as a winger, then his heatmaps wouldn't have been so concentrated out wide, regardless of whether we see the ball often or not. And a lot of people can see that Werner is not being used properly, that's for sure.

22 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

FL's lack of faith in CHO cant be equated to werner playing ahead of Puli as a LW and Ziyech as a RW. Lets wait and watch and revisit this once (hopefully, how is it possible that ziyech and puli have not been fit at the same time) both are fit. I have no doubt where werner would start.

 

22 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

These are problems, which come when you have injuries. Can you give me a solution, a solution that involves not playing a double pivot as none of our CMs are good at it. You keep using CHO as if FL trusts him, when its quite clear that he does not do that YET. 

I kept using CHO as an example because he was available with Ziyech and Lampard still didn't want to use him. Sure, you can put it down to the lack of trust but doesn't this say something about Lampard? He would rather play a non winger in a winger's position than an actual winger. Before we forget, CHO is the same player Lampard and the club want to keep from Bayern but is reluctant to have trust in him. 

Also, Pulisic is injury prone. Can we really be confident that he will be fit for a stretch of games and be able to play alongside Ziyech? If Ziyech is available but Pulisic is out injured again, then what? Play Werner as a winger on the LW again?

12 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I did not expect this to be the season it is turning out to be. Did you? Did anyone? People expected Leicester, everton, soton, WHU, Wolves, Villa to be within just 6 points of 2nd place with more 1/3rd of the season played when the season started? I did not. 80 points would have been fair objective at the start of a normal season for me. But given how its gone, you have to change the objective.

But don't think anyone said he should be sacked if we don't get 80 points regardless of where we finish.

14 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Anyways, I simply dont understand what that has to do with the current discusssion. At that moment we seemed directionless with a complete lack of play structure. And had nothing to do with results. The current hoopla around FL is based on 2 defeats after 17 unbeaten games. Seems massively unfair to me.

The reason why there's been a "hoopla" is because we saw the old bad habits resurfaced again in those 2 defeats - e.g. bad game management from Lampard - and it's similar to when you reacted after the Southampton, when the old bad habits resurfaced despite only 1 defeat in the opening 7 games of the season.

16 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

When i said "you did not see Barca changing their way from 4-3-3.", i meant the successful one. The dynasty one. I feel this team has it them to be a dynasty of sorts similar to that barca team or current pool team. The current barca is a joke led by a clown in koeman. If you think Riqui Puig should not be starting ahead of all the joke midfielders or 30+ has beens, there is something really really wrong with you as manager.

There are many ways to skin a cat. For every Barcelona, who traditionally have the 4-3-3 embedded through the ranks at the club, there is another who dominate and win things their own way, without having a fixed system through the club etc. 

[Puliiszola 519]

38 minutes ago, Jason said:

If Werner is not being used as a winger, then his heatmaps wouldn't have been so concentrated out wide, regardless of whether we see the ball often or not. And a lot of people can see that Werner is not being used properly, that's for sure.

What are you arguing about? Is werner actually being used like a Hazard or a willian? Where he is simply pinging crosses in the box or he is trying to take on players and trying to be the playmaker? Sure as hell is not. The heatmap showed his involvement as much centrally as a wide player. Did not I use the word "traditional"?

38 minutes ago, Jason said:

I kept using CHO as an example because he was available with Ziyech and Lampard still didn't want to use him. Sure, you can put it down to the lack of trust but doesn't this say something about Lampard? He would rather play a non winger in a winger's position than an actual winger. Before we forget, CHO is the same player Lampard and the club want to keep from Bayern but is reluctant to have trust in him. 

So? You can see world class potential in a player and pre-emptively try to avoid him leaving rather keep playin him. Wait, did not you want FL to want give Kai the Puli treatment, yet want FL to put CHO in the deep end of the pool when he does not think he is ready. I am sorry, but simply dont understand how stopping someone that you think might become a great player to go to Bayern makes him ready to play. CHO is given opprtunities in cup games and I am sure would get some in the coming period too. Also, its not like FL does not give youth the chance. We have mount and Reece and Tammy as proves. So if he thinks werner is a better option than CHO at the moment on the wings, I am willing to go with it.

38 minutes ago, Jason said:

Also, Pulisic is injury prone. Can we really be confident that he will be fit for a stretch of games and be able to play alongside Ziyech? If Ziyech is available but Pulisic is out injured again, then what? Play Werner as a winger on the LW again?

 Then we need to get depth for that position. A stop-gap maybe until CHO is ready. If not, then yes, werner on the wing. And why not? I can see exactly his uses on the "wing" or just playing a little wider (as i would put it). He is getting into great goal scoring oppurtunities, which shows that the system designed for him is working. He simply needs to convert those chances and add goals. Tammy and giroud are playing their parts, werner needs to play his.

38 minutes ago, Jason said:

But don't think anyone said he should be sacked if we don't get 80 points regardless of where we finish.

So? Maybe people did not rate him as high as I did. I carried expectations into the season, just did not expect the season to be so weird. Also, everyone has their expectations and something concrete to base their results on. Whether the manager is doing things right or not. Whats yours? That he "supposedly" did not play the right formation in ONE game? Or that he is not using werner right, despite him getting into multiple simple goal scoring oppurtunities in each game which suggests to the contrary. 

41 minutes ago, Jason said:

The reason why there's been a "hoopla" is because we saw the old bad habits resurfaced again in those 2 defeats - e.g. bad game management from Lampard - and it's similar to when you reacted after the Southampton, when the old bad habits resurfaced despite only 1 defeat in the opening 7 games of the season.

Oh. Did we use Kepa, jorginho, Alonso again in these 2 games? What "bad habits", that we struggled without 2 of our best creative players in pulisic and ziyech, and that we were conceding 3 goals almost every game? Yes, seems totally fair to compare the 2. 

42 minutes ago, Jason said:

There are many ways to skin a cat. For every Barcelona, who traditionally have the 4-3-3 embedded through the ranks at the club, there is another who dominate and win things their own way, without having a fixed system through the club etc. 

There are? Weird because most of the dynasties from Jose's chelsea to pep's barca to klopp's pool have a set formation that they play 90-95% of the games. Infact any club legendary teams not named "Ferguson's united" had a very set pattern of play and formation. The only time Pep seems to deviate from his norm is in CL semis and fucks himself over. Regardless, after 17 games unbeaten FL had every right to go with the same formation.

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9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

What are you arguing about? Is werner actually being used like a Hazard or a willian? Where he is simply pinging crosses in the box or he is trying to take on players and trying to be the playmaker? Sure as hell is not. The heatmap showed his involvement as much centrally as a wide player. Did not I use the word "traditional"?

So? You can see world class potential in a player and pre-emptively try to avoid him leaving rather keep playin him. Wait, did not you want FL to want give Kai the Puli treatment, yet want FL to put CHO in the deep end of the pool when he does not think he is ready. I am sorry, but simply dont understand how stopping someone that you think might become a great player to go to Bayern makes him ready to play. CHO is given opprtunities in cup games and I am sure would get some in the coming period too. Also, its not like FL does not give youth the chance. We have mount and Reece and Tammy as proves. So if he thinks werner is a better option than CHO at the moment on the wings, I am willing to go with it.

 Then we need to get depth for that position. A stop-gap maybe until CHO is ready. If not, then yes, werner on the wing. And why not? I can see exactly his uses on the "wing" or just playing a little wider (as i would put it). He is getting into great goal scoring oppurtunities, which shows that the system designed for him is working. He simply needs to convert those chances and add goals. Tammy and giroud are playing their parts, werner needs to play his.

So? Maybe people did not rate him as high as I did. I carried expectations into the season, just did not expect the season to be so weird. Also, everyone has their expectations and something concrete to base their results on. Whether the manager is doing things right or not. Whats yours? That he "supposedly" did not play the right formation in ONE game? Or that he is not using werner right, despite him getting into multiple simple goal scoring oppurtunities in each game which suggests to the contrary. 

Oh. Did we use Kepa, jorginho, Alonso again in these 2 games? What "bad habits", that we struggled without 2 of our best creative players in pulisic and ziyech, and that we were conceding 3 goals almost every game? Yes, seems totally fair to compare the 2. 

There are? Weird because most of the dynasties from Jose's chelsea to pep's barca to klopp's pool have a set formation that they play 90-95% of the games. Infact any club legendary teams not named "Ferguson's united" had a very set pattern of play and formation. The only time Pep seems to deviate from his norm is in CL semis and fucks himself over. Regardless, after 17 games unbeaten FL had every right to go with the same formation.

At this point, whatever. You are clearly seeing only from the perspective that Lampard is faultless and he can do no wrong. 

And also, you have gone somewhat undetected long enough.  

[Superblue 6,370]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

I agree with you about the 4-3-3 and I also thought it works well for the team the moment Lampard switched to it at Krasnodar - also fair to note that he stumbled upon it considering he was chopping and changing it before then - but the more we play it, the more obvious that it does not fit Werner and likely even Havertz at all. Unless Werner scores regularly, he is lost out wide while Havertz has not had a really strong game, dominant game (that Barnsley game is not counted and we weren't even playing 4-3-3 in that one, IIRC). I do not think Roman agreed to spend more than 100 million on those two, only to see Lampard struggle to fit them into a cohesive system with the rest (and before anyone jumps in, am not talking about Werner's missed chances!).

Lampard went overboard with the chopping and changing of system and personnel last season and while the consistent selection this season has been good, that does not mean he should stick with it for the sake of it if he doesn't have the personnel for it, like at Everton or even Wolves last week. We had no wingers against Everton, for example, but Lampard decided to persist with 4-3-3 anyway and look what happened. 

Klopp rarely changes his system but his system has everyone in that Liverpool side firing and there's no real reason to change. Can the same be said about us? As for Guardiola, his main issue is that he overthinks things and changes the system for no good reason, even when he has all the players available to play his main one.

The Werner and Havertz situation is far from ideal but I think in Werner's situation playing wide has been more necessary than anything because none of the rest of our wide players can seem to stay fit for long periods and get a run in the team. I think the Everton and Wolves games highlighted that if he's not getting in behind and being forced wider and deeper for the ball then he becomes a far more ineffective player. I think long term he can and will play central in a 4-3-3 system. And if he had scored even 2 or 3 of the good chances he has had in recent weeks I don't think there would be a discussion about this, but his lack of goals is what is creating the topic of discussion. 

I think Havertz needs time in general to get used to the league, especially the pace of it and lack of time you get on the ball. His confidence and general fitness look shot since Covid. I think he can play in the number 8 role long term, as well as the number 10 role. The problem with switching to a 4-2-3-1 is we seem to experience a huge drop off defensively with a pivot compared to a holding midfielder.

For me Havertz was starting to come into his element just before Covid and seemed to have some good chemistry with Ziyech. Werner too I think if playing wide, benefits immensely from Ziyech's ability to pick his runs inside. I don't think we're quite at Hazard level reliance on Ziyech, but there's no doubt that currently he seems to knit our offensive game together and his natural confidence seems to rub off on players around him. 

I understand Lampard playing 4-3-3 during the Everton and Wolves games. In Everton's case, I think the team had been playing so well and were on such a good run of form that it made sense to still set up in the same formation that everyone had been used to playing, and the Wolves game made more sense with Pulisic returning. I think in both though what was probably more disappointing was that Lampard didn't change during the match. The Everton game in particular we had both Giroud and Abraham on towards the end but still seemed to be set up in a 4-3-3 with Tammy wide. Hopefully with players returning this becomes something of a moot point, but in the back of Lampard's mind you're right he probably does need to have an idea of an alternative system/set-up if something similar occurred again.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Superblue_1986 said:

The Werner and Havertz situation is far from ideal but I think in Werner's situation playing wide has been more necessary than anything because none of the rest of our wide players can seem to stay fit for long periods and get a run in the team. I think the Everton and Wolves games highlighted that if he's not getting in behind and being forced wider and deeper for the ball then he becomes a far more ineffective player. I think long term he can and will play central in a 4-3-3 system. And if he had scored even 2 or 3 of the good chances he has had in recent weeks I don't think there would be a discussion about this, but his lack of goals is what is creating the topic of discussion. 

Don't know about others but I've been saying from the very start, back in September, that Werner is being wasted out wide. Before anyone jumps the gun, am not making excuses for his misses and this has gotta do with how he is being used (TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!), Werner is having to spend an awful lot of energy in wide areas and not in areas where he can consistently hurt the opposition. We bought him for 50 million to be a striker, not to constantly track runners back on the flanks. If he doesn't score goals, then he doesn't contribute anything else from wide areas. Then that in turn just exposes him as a non-existent threat.

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I think Havertz needs time in general to get used to the league, especially the pace of it and lack of time you get on the ball. His confidence and general fitness look shot since Covid. I think he can play in the number 8 role long term, as well as the number 10 role. The problem with switching to a 4-2-3-1 is we seem to experience a huge drop off defensively with a pivot compared to a holding midfielder.

I assume we might switch to a 4-2-3-1 if/when we get better midfielders in but don't think we have played that formation yet with Mendy and Silva in the side? 

7 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

For me Havertz was starting to come into his element just before Covid and seemed to have some good chemistry with Ziyech. Werner too I think if playing wide, benefits immensely from Ziyech's ability to pick his runs inside. I don't think we're quite at Hazard level reliance on Ziyech, but there's no doubt that currently he seems to knit our offensive game together and his natural confidence seems to rub off on players around him. 

Havertz was still tentative at best. He hasn't dominated a match or really imposed himself on the opposition. And if we've got to rely on one player to make us thick going forward again, then we've got problems. Said it before and I'll say it again, the club didn't spend all that money in the summer just to see us rely on one player to make us look good.

10 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I understand Lampard playing 4-3-3 during the Everton and Wolves games. In Everton's case, I think the team had been playing so well and were on such a good run of form that it made sense to still set up in the same formation that everyone had been used to playing, and the Wolves game made more sense with Pulisic returning. I think in both though what was probably more disappointing was that Lampard didn't change during the match. The Everton game in particular we had both Giroud and Abraham on towards the end but still seemed to be set up in a 4-3-3 with Tammy wide. Hopefully with players returning this becomes something of a moot point, but in the back of Lampard's mind you're right he probably does need to have an idea of an alternative system/set-up if something similar occurred again.

Fine, I can still reluctantly accept going into the Everton game with 4-3-3 based on pre-game form but on the flip side, just like Werner, Havertz isn't a wide player. So, starting 4-3-3 then made little sense and it was further compounded by two things - (a) Havertz was disastrous and no one else turned up at Goodison and (b) as you pointed out, Lampard changed nothing at all then and in the Wolves game too. That is why I find it strange that Lampard went from changing too much to not even changing it all when required. We don't want to be in another situation where like Conte and Sarri before him, Lampard sticks with the same formation all the time even when it's not working. It's a good thing that he hasn't gone overboard with the changes this season but he also needs to learn that he should look to change things when it's not working. Needs to find that balance. 

[Fulham Broadway 16,829]

Am watching the game again seeing as Sky are rerunning it - second time around we do seem to be in control - albeit waiting for a counter attack. It seems pretty obvious we would have got our goals earlier had Werner been in the middle. But it is a dilemna for Frank with Giroud and Abraham vying for that spot