Timo Werner

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

You think Werner, who misses many chances in general, and currently without Ziyech would play better as a CF? Werner needs passes, so he can use his pace and get into 1 vs 1 situations and sometimes the ball goes into the net. His hold up play is horrible in general. As long as Ziyech is injured, there is no place for Werner in this team

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

Then it comes down to what I've been asking - why did Lampard even buy him in the first place if he does not know how to fit him in? What is the point of even putting him out there as a winger? Let's not also forget, Werner mentioned he joined us because of Lampard, because Lampard spoke to him about playing attacking football and how he will fit etc. But things really turned out that way? 

Starting to think that Lampard did not really watch Werner last season. He did not see what made Werner so good, what made him score all the goals that he did at Leipzig and what made him become one of the most coveted players in the summer. He probably just looked at the his numbers and thought "wow, let's just sign him then!" and also the fact that he was available on the cheap!

[Jase 43,479]

12 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

You think Werner, who misses many chances in general, and currently without Ziyech would play better as a CF? Werner needs passes, so he can use his pace and get into 1 vs 1 situations and sometimes the ball goes into the net. His hold up play is horrible in general. As long as Ziyech is injured, there is no place for Werner in this team

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

Also, you said Werner's hold up play is horrible but since you were banging on about Abraham's improving his, then why can't Werner do the same? He's still only 24 years old.

Moreover, if strikers like Aguero and Vardy - strikers who are similar to Werner - can lead the line for Man City and Leicester respectively, then why can't we look to do the same? Even though Man City and Liverpool cross more than we do, we are just horribly predictable with our attacking play of crosses. Almost as if we're being coached by Sam Allardyce at times!

People haven't talked about this enough but if we look back at the results and performances since the restart in June, we've been nothing but a one man team. It was Pulisic at the end of last season and now seemingly, it's Ziyech. It's pathetic. Spent all that money and this is what we are seeing and producing.

[killer1257 3,282]

 

 

 

 

Then it comes down to what I've been asking - why did Lampard even buy him in the first place if he does not know how to fit him in? What is the point of even putting him out there as a winger? Let's not also forget, Werner mentioned he joined us because of Lampard, because Lampard spoke to him about playing attacking football and how he will fit etc. But things really turned out that way?  Starting to think that Lampard did not really watch Werner last season. He did not see what made Werner so good, what made him score all the goals that he did at Leipzig and what made him become one of the most coveted players in the summer. He probably just looked at the his numbers and thought "wow, let's just sign him then!" and also the fact that he was available on the cheap!

 

 

First of all, Bundesliga is not PL. The amount of space you get in Bundesliga is insane. It is a striker's dream, especially when you are fast. Sadly for Werner, PL doesn't give you as much space and this affects many of his attributes. His runs are not as effective because opponents are closer to him. Secondly, he gets less into shooting positions because shots get more blocked often due to the fact that players are closer to him. In Bundesliga, he shot everywhere and he, just like Mount, has a good shot. Werner needs players around him, so he can score goals.

 

Take away Werner's speed and he is not even half as good. Werner is a very one dimensional player. He needs lot of space, his chance conversion rate was overrated in my opinion last season like I stated many times before he came to us and he does not have technical abilities to play one touch football.

 

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

[xPetrCechx 13,563]

Timo? are you here?

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

First of all, Bundesliga is not PL. The amount of space you get in Bundesliga is insane. It is a striker's dream, especially when you are fast. Sadly for Werner, PL doesn't give you as much space and this affects many of his attributes. His runs are not as effective because opponents are closer to him. Secondly, he gets less into shooting positions because shots get more blocked often due to the fact that players are closer to him. In Bundesliga, he shot everywhere and he, just like Mount, has a good shot. Werner needs players around him, so he can score goals.

Take away Werner's speed and he is not even half as good. Werner is a very one dimensional player. A lot of space, his chance conversion rate was overrated in my opinion last season like I stated many times last season before he came to us and he does not have technical abilities to play one touch football.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

 

You haven't answered my question. You can talk about all those circumstances and if those are reasons why he won't succeed here, then why did Lampard even buy him? Why did Lampard reportedly say what he said to Werner when trying to convince him to join us? Because it's clear as hell as that Lampard hasn't gone anywhere close to bringing out the best of Werner. 

Also remember what Nagelsmann said when he went about improving Werner last season to make him more complete, more unpredictable?

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/timo-werner-a-different-kind-of-striker-to-lewandowski-rb-leipzig-s-julian-nagelsmann-9547

Quote

bundesliga.com: You said Timo Werner "is a different style" - tells us a bit more...

Nagelsmann: "Yeah, it’s part of the reason why we’ve started him a bit deeper, we don’t want him right on the last line, because he needs a bit of a head start, a bit of tempo, in order to really show his pace on the pitch. When he’s on the last line, he often finds himself static when he needs to get going, but with a bit of room in front of him, he can hit top speed. And from this deeper position, he’s much more involved in our build-up play and combinations. In the last few years all his moments have come in transition, whereas now he has his moments in combination play too. He’s having many more touches of the ball than in previous years, and this new position has done his development good, playing in between the lines against teams who sit deep. That’s another trait he’ll need if he wants to be one of the best in Europe. There are a lot of teams who sit deep and defend deep against you, and he needs that second way of being dangerous to opponents too, and he’s definitely developed that this year."

Those circumstances you mentioned, I'm sure Nagelsmann was aware of them and that's why he did what he did with Werner, who ended up having his best goalscoring season. So, where is the tactical improvement or ingenuity from Lampard?

[Special Juan 27,424]

Lampard is clueless what to do with him because the position he should be playing in he can't give him, because he is worried about Abraham being upset.

Imagine being that spineless.

[killer1257 3,282]

Those circumstances you mentioned, I'm sure Nagelsmann was aware of them and that's why he did what he did with Werner, who ended up having his best goalscoring season. So, where is the tactical improvement or ingenuity from Lampard?

I don't know why he bought him. I would not have bought him, because I did not see him fit here.

But circumstances play a huge factor and also Nagelsmann plays 4-4-2. So, should he change our system just to have Werner fit him better at the cost of other players like Ziyech getting worse?

You said that Werner could improve his technical abilities and hold up play. Maybe he can, but Tammy has been working at this since last season. Might take a while and Tammy has a better technical foundation than Werner. Also, Tammy, is bigger in size, which helps often. Werner will clearly not win aerial duels.

You gave Vardy and Aguero as examples. Aguero is an all time PL legend and is one of the most technical players in PL. I don't think I have to get deeper than that.
Vardy is similar, but I would still say Vardy has better all round game than Werner. Might change one day

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[robsblubot 3,502]

Speaking of which, aside from the endgame tap-in, when the game was already lost, Abraham was very poor against Arsenal.

Tbf several players were below their usual selves, but just worried about abrahams pattern against tougher opposition.

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

But circumstances play a huge factor and also Nagelsmann plays 4-4-2. So, should he change our system just to have Werner fit him better at the cost of other players like Ziyech getting worse?

Well, Lampard is the one who bought Werner. So, surely he must have a grand plan, right!?

2 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

You said that Werner could improve his technical abilities and hold up play. Maybe he can, but Tammy has been working at this since last season. Might take a while and Tammy has a better technical foundation than Werner.

Doesn't matter when balls are still bouncing off Abraham's feet, body, head when it comes to him to hold up.

3 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

You gave Vardy and Aguero as examples. Aguero is an all time PL legend and is one of the most technical players in PL. I don't think I have to get deeper than that.
Vardy is similar, but I would still say Vardy has better all round game than Werner. Might change one day

But tell me, were they as perfect when they were 24 years old as they are now? 

[killer1257 3,282]

But tell me, were they as perfect when they were 24 years old as they are now? 

I am pretty sure that Aguero was world class when he was 24 years old. He had 42 scorers in his first season at Man city (in 48 games). I don't even think Aguero improved that much to be honest.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, killer1257 said:

I am pretty sure that Aguero was world class when he was 24 years old. He had 42 scorers in his first season at Man city (in 48 games). I don't even think Aguero improved that much to be honest.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

But he wasn't as polished back then as he is now? I also remember Man City play with 2 strikers upfront at times back then, with Aguero slightly behind Dzeko IIRC. 

Can't be bothered to debate about whether Werner is in the "world class" category right now but there sure is hell a reason for why he was the second best striker in the Bundesliga behind Lewandowski in the last 2 years or so and why he was one of the most coveted players around last summer. He did not score all those goals and become wanted by the biggest clubs around by fluke. 

[killer1257 3,282]

But he wasn't as polished back then as he is now? I also remember Man City play with 2 strikers upfront at times back then, with Aguero slightly behind Dzeko IIRC. 
Can't be bothered to debate about whether Werner is in the "world class" category right now but there sure is hell a reason for why he was the second best striker in the Bundesliga behind Lewandowski in the last 2 years or so and why he was one of the most coveted players around last summer. He did not score all those goals and become wanted by the biggest clubs around by fluke. 

And there was a time where TC wanted Luka Jovic, who I thought was not good enough for a top class team either. Bundesliga is nowhere near the level of Pl and La Liga. Not every Bundesliga star is made for other leagues. Funny thing is that Jovic actually had technical abilities.

I am pretty sure many clubs wanted Jovic and he went to the biggest club in the world. I never understood why, but it is what it is.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, killer1257 said:

And there was a time where TC wanted Luka Jovic, who I thought was not good enough for a top class team either. Bundesliga is nowhere near the level of Pl and La Liga. Not every Bundesliga star is made for other leagues. Funny thing is that Jovic actually had technical abilities.

I am pretty sure many clubs wanted Jovic and he went to the biggest club in the world. I never understood why, but it is what it is.

 

Jovic? That's a shit comparison. He had only that 1 good season in 2018/19 and people just believed the hype and jumped onto the bandwagon. Werner had at least 4 seasons and steadily improved year in year out at Leipzig. 

[killer1257 3,282]

Jovic? That's a shit comparison. He had only that 1 good season in 2018/19 and people just believed the hype and jumped onto the bandwagon. Werner had at least 4 seasons and steadily improved year in year out at Leipzig. 

I think Jovic had two good seasons. One good season was before he became famous and he did not play much in that season, but his output was decent for the low amount of minutes he played. I actually live in Frankfurt and I have seen him a bit and never rated him for the PL.

We will see in couple of years if Werner is good enough for a top club or not. Every weakness I pointed out before we bought him was justified. I never just look at goal stats and say he will make it in Pl. I look deeper than that and look what attributes a player has and does it match with the attributes that are necessary for Pl.

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

[Jase 43,479]

43 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

I think Jovic had two good seasons. One good season was before he became famous and he did not play much in that season, but his output was decent for the low amount of minutes he played. I actually live in Frankfurt and I have seen him a bit and never rated him for the PL.

 

What a convenient point to make all of a sudden. 

1 hour ago, killer1257 said:

We will see in couple of years if Werner is good enough for a top club or not. Every weakness I pointed out before we bought him was justified. I never just look at goal stats and say he will make it in Pl. I look deeper than that and look what attributes a player has and does it match with the attributes that are necessary for Pl.

I don't want to call you a hypocrite but you have been lambasting Werner for his supposedly lack of technical ability while at the same time, championing Abraham who arguably is even worse in the technical ability department. The ball forever bounces off him when it comes to him and he rarely controls it properly the first time. Fair enough if you want to believe that Abraham can get better but I seem to get this vibe from you that you don't think Werner can improve any further and what we see is the finished article, even though one is only 23 years old and the other is only 24 years old.

Lampard has no excuses with Werner. He wanted him and he got him. Like any other manager, it's Lampard's job to improve and get the best out of the player but so far, he's done exactly the opposite. He's put Werner in a position, with a role that doesn't suit him at all - it's a role that doesn't maximize his strengths while exposing his weaknesses, which a manager should not be doing first and foremost to any player. Looking back to earlier, I don't even know why you brought up TC like it's some sort of validation but again, Werner did not score 90+ goals in 4 seasons at Leipzig and being courted by the biggest clubs around by accident. If for example Klopp, who has hardly missed a beat with his signings at Liverpool, wants Werner at Anfield, then he clearly believes that there is a player in there that he can improve and take to the next level. 

[MONEYBALL 20]

So many excuses for this player ! It's easy to understand... Fans realize the collective is not good enough so they stake everything on the man of providence. No matter if he can't put anymore, one foot in front of the other, no matter if he can't make a simple ball control, if he can't score anymore, alone, 2 meters from the cage, there can't be no doubt, he scored so many goals in Germany, he's got so much pace, he's so hype, so highly rated on fifa, that the only valid explanation for the reasons he struggles is necessarily the position he plays on the pitch. 

[killer1257 3,282]

 

 

 

I don't want to call you a hypocrite but you have been lambasting Werner for his supposedly lack of technical ability while at the same time, championing Abraham who arguably is even worse in the technical ability department. The ball forever bounces off him when it comes to him and he rarely controls it properly the first time. Fair enough if you want to believe that Abraham can get better but I seem to get this vibe from you that you don't think Werner can improve any further and what we see is the finished article, even though one is only 23 years old and the other is only 24 years old.

Lampard has no excuses with Werner. He wanted him and he got him. Like any other manager, it's Lampard's job to improve and get the best out of the player but so far, he's done exactly the opposite. He's put Werner in a position, with a role that doesn't suit him at all - it's a role that doesn't maximize his strengths while exposing his weaknesses, which a manager should not be doing first and foremost to any player. Looking back to earlier, I don't even know why you brought up TC like it's some sort of validation but again, Werner did not score 90+ goals in 4 seasons at Leipzig and being courted by the biggest clubs around by accident. If for example Klopp, who has hardly missed a beat with his signings at Liverpool, wants Werner at Anfield, then he clearly believes that there is a player in there that he can improve and take to the next level. 

 

You just love Werner and hate Tammy. Tammy has a much better link up play than Werner and his first touch is miles ahead of Werner. And no, I don't hate Werner.

Just facts. Even German Sky commentators say that Werner has a bad first touch in every match. Every match, yes. I am not exaggerating actually on this one.

 

It is funny that it is always the fault of the coach. Werner had many years to improve his game and still has the same weaknesses he always had. Why? Reminds me of Lukaku who never worked on his weaknesses too and still to this day has technical flaws in his game and lacks football IQ. Ziyech was not rated here on TC. Only few guys realised how good he really was. Why does he not struggle like Werner with the basics? Maybe because he learned the basics from an early age? We never lost with ziyech btw. This is also the reason why I think that Mount will never turn into a creative mastermind like many of TC claim that he will become one day. You either have world class creativity or potential of having world class creativity at this stage or not

 

And I criticize Tammy heavily on being garbage with his aerial threat and currently I don't see him improving in that aspect either.

 

 

Gesendet von meinem VOG-L29 mit Tapatalk

 

 

 

[Alabama 1,992]

Although I dont like how Lampard keeps shunting him out wide because I want to see him in the central striking position but his recent form as well is a serious cause for concern...But with right and good tactics he will get back to his best....